Old 06-01-2014, 12:25 PM   #1
Mixwell63
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Default Sonar or Reaper for noob?

Greetings to all. Which DAW do you think would be easier for a noob to learn on, Sonar or Reaper? The reason I asked is I got Sonar 8.5 a couple of years ago, got it up and running, and was able to record multiple midi and audio tracks, but kept getting stuck on sends, buses and track routing. If you say Reaper is more noob friendly, which instruction book do you think I should get for reaper to help me this kind of thing. So, just what is the difference between buses, sends and routing?
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Old 06-01-2014, 01:04 PM   #2
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No modern daw is very noob friendly, imo. Modern daws are complex. You just have to figure out what you want to do in your daw at any given point, and stay focused on learning those things, ignoring the barrage of options and doodads.

Sends, busses, track routing... Every daw handles these things in their own way. Imo, if you understand the underlying concepts, general routing is not difficult in Reaper, although, I would say that [internal] track routing is not so intuitive, with the pin matrix.

I'll leave recommending learning materials up to others.
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Old 06-01-2014, 02:20 PM   #3
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Thank you brainwreck. I think you're right, no modern DAW is user friendly. I think I'll go with Reaper and try to keep it simple and stay focused as you advised.
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Old 06-01-2014, 03:14 PM   #4
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Welcome to the forum.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:12 PM   #5
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A lot of us on the REAPER forum came from SONAR. Although Reaper generally isn't seen as an easy DAW to learn, I found it super intuitive personally.

You may also want to check out video tutorials like this one:

http://www.groove3.com/str/reaper-4-explained.html

Kenny Gioia knows his stuff (solid credentials) and will help you become productive with Reaper in no time.
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Old 06-01-2014, 09:18 PM   #6
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I would advise you to pick one, stick with it, and learn everything about it that you need to get your work done. I honestly think you can accomplish the same thing in any of them, it's just a matter of how you get there. They are all very different, yet very similar! Lol. Again, pick one and learn it.

Something that might help you with your decision is the level of help that is available here. If you have a problem or a question, post it here, and you'll get multiple answers in a very short time.

I used Sonar from Cakewalk 3 (on a floppy disc!) all the way to 8.5.3. I haven't looked back since switching to Reaper.
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Old 06-02-2014, 01:37 AM   #7
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And our very own Nicholas (Geoffrey Francis) has even written this just for you as a welcome!

http://www.cockos.com/reaper/usergui...ARtoREAPER.pdf
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:06 AM   #8
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reaper... that was easy.
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:31 AM   #9
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Default Sound Card debacle, or, Off to a screaaching halt

pattse, edkilp, jiff 41 and hopi, thank you all for steering me in the right direction on all of the tuts and other Reaper learning resources. I plan on using all or most of them (Looks like I'll need them all, lol). My current problem is setting up keyboard-Sound Card- computer configuration. I had it set up correctly a few years ago when I tried Sonar 8.5 and realized I was in over my head. OK, here's my problem; I have successfully downloaded and installed Reaper. My computer is Windows i7 64 Bit, 4gigs of RAM. My keyboard is Casio WK 1200. The sound card is M-Audio Pro Fire 610 I downloaded the latest drivers and can listen to everything online (U Tube videos and stuff), with no problems. But I can't figure out how to reconnect them all so I so that Reaper recognizes the keyboard. The Casio works fine. I have a midi cable Going from the out port of the keyboard going to IN port of the sound card. I open Reaper preferences, click on midi devices, a dialog box shows and says "Pro-Fire 610 enabled. Under that for midi outputs its says "Microsoft Wave Table Disabled, and "Pro-Fire midi enabled. Am I OK this far or did I do something wrong?
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Old 06-02-2014, 11:53 AM   #10
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Under that for midi outputs its says "Microsoft Wave Table Disabled, and "Pro-Fire midi enabled. Am I OK this far or did I do something wrong?
You want to see the Pro-Fire enabled under MIDI inputs.
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:17 PM   #11
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In that same dialog box, at the top it says Pro Fire enabled. Maybe the problem is I didn't have a midi track opened in the track view. Also, I went to Options>Preferences>Device, I see Audio device settings which is all asio and Pro Fire, but nothing about midi.
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:49 PM   #12
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You have to separately enable MIDI in and out. Make sure you've done that if you need both. I never need anything but MIDI in personally.
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Old 06-02-2014, 01:11 PM   #13
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Greetings to all. Which DAW do you think would be easier for a noob to learn on, Sonar or Reaper? The reason I asked is I got Sonar 8.5 a couple of years ago, got it up and running, and was able to record multiple midi and audio tracks, but kept getting stuck on sends, buses and track routing. If you say Reaper is more noob friendly, which instruction book do you think I should get for reaper to help me this kind of thing. So, just what is the difference between buses, sends and routing?
Sonar is more noob-friendly.
I use Reaper
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Old 06-02-2014, 01:20 PM   #14
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Default Noob has exciting breakthrough!

I messed around and somehow got a midi track opened and was able to record midi notes on the track, (Thank God). I still can't hear anything but it's a relief! I'm going to enroll with the 3groove tuts tonight so, hopefully my questions will not be so elementary in the future. for now I can't hear what I just recorded.
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Old 06-02-2014, 02:53 PM   #15
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I messed around and somehow got a midi track opened and was able to record midi notes on the track, (Thank God). I still can't hear anything but it's a relief! I'm going to enroll with the 3groove tuts tonight so, hopefully my questions will not be so elementary in the future. for now I can't hear what I just recorded.
You need an instrument on the track. Click the track's fx button, and add reasynth, just to get going. MIDI is control data (doesn't make sound itself) for things that do make sound.
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Old 06-02-2014, 04:03 PM   #16
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Thank you brainwreck. I inserted the synth like you said and got the recorded midi track to play back in sound. I'm real happy about that but the track is being voiced in Zylophone tones (Which makes bad my tune sound even worse if possible). How do I assign a different instrument in the synth, to play back that track?
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Old 06-02-2014, 04:29 PM   #17
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Beware, you've just entered the addictive and endless hole of virtual instruments .

ReaSynth was just a suggestion to get you started.
Here's another freebie with many interesting presets:
http://www.u-he.com/cms/zebralette

Look under Part 3 of BPB for more options:
http://bedroomproducersblog.com/free-vst-plugins/

What kind of sounds are you looking for?
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Old 06-02-2014, 04:47 PM   #18
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I was thinking of something like orchestral strings, grand piano etc., to start out with. I'm sure there are some good sounds on the synths. I just can't figure out how to select and assign them to a particular track in Reaper. I thought once a synh was loaded, there would be a drop down menu with midi instruments 1-128 or something similar.
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Old 06-02-2014, 05:23 PM   #19
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I was thinking of something like orchestral strings, grand piano etc., to start out with. I'm sure there are some good sounds on the synths. I just can't figure out how to select and assign them to a particular track in Reaper. I thought once a synh was loaded, there would be a drop down menu with midi instruments 1-128 or something similar.
You may know this, but just in case. Synths vs. samplers: A synth(esizer) uses oscillators (think synthetically generated sound waves), filters (think eq), and envelopes (think automated knob controls), to shape synthetic sounds, such as keyboard sounds from the 80's. A sampler plays back pre-recorded sound files, typically of acoustic instruments, to recreate the sounds of those instruments. A sampled piano, for example, might use hundreds of sound files recorded from a real piano, and all those sound files are mapped to keyboard pitches and velocities, in an effort to create realism.

Any way... Software synths and samplers is business these days. There is lots to choose from, and some of the free stuff is good, too. It sounds like you want a sampler. There is no really good and free multi-instrument sample bank, imo, but there are lots of pieces out there to put together, or you can buy a commercial sampler such as Kontakt. Dealing with free sample packs and related tools gets messy, so be warned.

There is a free orchestral soundfont, which I forget the name of at the moment. Maybe someone will mention it, here.

There is a piano soundfont (a type of sample pack) called Salamander mentioned in this thread: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...51#post1362951 You'll need the Salamander soundfont (can unarchive it using 7zip) and the sforzando soundfont player.

I put together some free sampled drums over here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...amplomatic5000 Other than the downloads, everything else that you need is in Reaper. Other people on the forum have put together kits, too.

Lots of other stuff out there, but finding and using it isn't exactly straightforward for noobs.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:21 PM   #20
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Thank you. All of that is really a bit confusing right now. How can I play the Casio and record the sounds it makes? Should I an audio file and do it that way?
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:32 PM   #21
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Thank you. All of that is really a bit confusing right now. How can I play the Casio and record the sounds it makes? Should I an audio file and do it that way?
You need to run the audio outputs of the Casio (if it has them) to the input of your interface/sound card. Arm a track, select your audio input accordingly, and record.

Looks like you'll have to use the phones output on the back, if I'm looking at the right manual.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:47 PM   #22
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I use both Sonar X3 Producer and Reaper. Both are my favorite DAWS, but Sonar is definitely easier to learn. BTW Sonar X3 (and I believe 8.5 as well) has a "insert send assistant" that makes routing buses extremely easy although the conventional way is also easy. No matter which one you choose take the time to learn it and you'll be good to go.

Welcome to the boards...
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:07 AM   #23
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I understand that no DAW is Noob friendly, and that Sonar is slightly less user hostile than Reaper, but my Sonar was 8.5 Producer, since then Cakewalk has moved on to Sonar X3 or something. No one on their forum is even talking about 8.5 anymore. So, I would have to spent several hundred to get the new Sonar DAW. Also, I like this forum community more. Anyway there is no Audio Out on my Casio keyboard. Just midi out. I,m still in the dark about routing and things. I see that some guy has a "Reaper Power" book for sale. I can get a used one for $80 on Amazon. If anyone is familiar with it, do you think it would be big help to a Noob, or is it more for the intermediate to advanced user? I've been looking at a lot of Reaper Tutorial videos and that is helping, but it's just those little details like if the wrong little box is ticked or not ticked, everything grinds to a halt. As you all have made me aware of. all DAWs have their proprietary unique qwerks and ways of doing things. So I expect some slow going at first, but I'm not giving up. I'm going to do this if it kills me, because if my music dies with me, it would kill me even more. Not that my music is all that great or anything, but you know what I mean... I'm headed over to 3Groove now and enroll as there is some stuff on Buses and Routing I need to know. I'll let you know how things work out...
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Old 06-03-2014, 12:13 PM   #24
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I'm headed over to 3Groove now and enroll as there is some stuff on Buses and Routing I need to know. I'll let you know how things work out...
Good. That's some nice tutorials.

Remember there are two main approaches for learning a DAW:
1) Learning the basics/medium/experienced from start to finish.
e.g. read a whole book, read the whole manual, follow a complete series of videos.
2) Task specific: You need to do something, and you set out for the knowledge needed to understand how to do just that.

I suggest you start with #1 learn the basics, and then move to approach #2.

Maybe starting with "Reaper Signal Flow Explained" on Groove 3 is a good idea
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Old 06-03-2014, 02:37 PM   #25
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G-Sun, I went to your site and was able to access Reaper noob page 2, but couldn't get to page 1, which is where I really need to start. As for 3Groove, I tried to register so I could get an All Access Pass but ran into a series of frustrating hurdles. I'm starting to think that that part was designed by their competitors...
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Old 06-03-2014, 02:44 PM   #26
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As for 3Groove, I tried to register so I could get an All Access Pass but ran into a series of frustrating hurdles.
What kind of problems are you hitting? I thought it couldn't have been easier.
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Old 06-03-2014, 03:43 PM   #27
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Under "Introduction" is listed Part 1, under that says Part2. If I run the cursor over Part2 it lights up. When I run the cursor over Part 1, nothing highlights at all.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:48 PM   #28
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I was thinking of something like orchestral strings, grand piano etc., to start out with. I'm sure there are some good sounds on the synths. I just can't figure out how to select and assign them to a particular track in Reaper. I thought once a synh was loaded, there would be a drop down menu with midi instruments 1-128 or something similar.
Do you have an ipad ?
If you do why not just use garageband. Conect your midi keyboard to your ipad via irig lead. The run a lead from the ipads headphone jack and into your m audio interface.
Record in audio instead of midi.
This will get you started. And there are loads of great instruments and drum loops etc in garageband. Its really newb friendly. And it sounds brilliant. Everything you need is in there to get you going so you can actualy make music as you learn your way around reaper.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:56 PM   #29
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Im still a newb too. Midi is way over my head. I keep saying ill sit down and learn it. But i just dont have the time. When i do have it i just want to make music.
I just use my ipad for drum etc. there are loads of great and really cheap apps that work really well. I do my drums in an app called dm1. Though i have just bought a roland tr8 drum machine. So that be used in future too. And all my synths are real synths. Real guitars, bass etc.
but as i said above. Garageband is amazing. It does everything. You will find every sound youl ever need.
If you want something even more amazing. Camel audio do an ipad app called alchemy. Very cheap. And really cool.
One day ill learn midi. But for now im having too much fun actually recording stuff.
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Old 06-04-2014, 12:08 AM   #30
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G-Sun, I went to your site and was able to access Reaper noob page 2, but couldn't get to page 1, which is where I really need to start. As for 3Groove, I tried to register so I could get an All Access Pass but ran into a series of frustrating hurdles. I'm starting to think that that part was designed by their competitors...
It's looking right to me.
Part 1 starts on the landing-page for the link.
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Old 06-04-2014, 04:11 AM   #31
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I don't know if this will help or not...but,

when I first started to try learning Midi someone in another forum gave me this simple analogy which set it straight for me almost instantly.

Your (Casio)keyboard is like a typewriter which is putting little information blocks on the Midi track. You need to add a "synth" or soundfont player as an FX on the track to read the little blocks. Within that synth or soundfont player are actual soundfonts....(or you can download different soundfont banks).

So, its like typing a paper and then adding different fonts to change the look of the printed page. Like type fonts (arial, new times, courier, etc.) Whichever sound you put on your synth FX is what it will play when it reads the midi track.

Now, you're really messed up, huh? Well, maybe not?


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Old 06-04-2014, 09:50 AM   #32
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clik the link in my signature and go download that pdf...

it should get you going with virtual instruments in a good way and get you to understand the basics of using them in reaper.

it was written because your question comes up at least once per week around here...
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:26 AM   #33
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Im still a newb too. Midi is way over my head. I keep saying ill sit down and learn it. But i just dont have the time.
I think that noobs to MIDI tend to get some things mixed up: MIDI, synthesis, sampling. These are different topics.

MIDI is a protocol for control instructions, and it does not produce sound. When you press a key, hit a pad, push a button, or twist a knob on a MIDI controller (keyboard, pads, etc.), a MIDI message consisting of instructions is sent to a device that produces sound (synthesizer, sampler, etc.). Pressing a keyboard key produces A MIDI message containing instructions for note on, pitch, velocity, and note off. The receiving sound producing device follows those instruction messages, outputting sound accordingly. You could think of a MIDI controller, whether it is a keyboard, pads, or mix controller, as a remote control or input device, not unlike a typing keyboard (as mentioned by another poster), where the typing keyboard produces instructions to the computer, and the computer and display produces the actual text that you see, according to the instructions received from the typing keyboard. When you press 'A' on a typing keyboard, a code for 'A' is sent to the computer. The same happens when pressing the 'A' note on a MIDI keyboard. An instruction code is sent, not sound.

A synthesizer is a synthetic sound producing device, using oscillators, filters, and enevelopes to produce sounds, according to the control instructions that it receives.

A software sampler is essentially a complex sound file player. According to the received MIDI instructions, it plays sound files of piano, drums, trumpet, etc. The sound files are recordings, as opposed to calculated/synthetic sounds.

(Actually, all sound coming from a computer is synthesized, but that's further down the rabbit hole)

If you take a typical Casio keyboard, which does produce sound, it is really a MIDI controller and sampler/synthesier all in one package.
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Old 06-04-2014, 12:29 PM   #34
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I was trying to record the sounds the Casio was generating, (instead of just the On/Off messages) in the midi track. Is there a way to to do that? Like maybe a little box to click, probably somewhere on the midi-in section. PS I ordered the "Reaper Power" book so, I'm hoping to have some of this resolved soon. I have accidently wound up getting both guitar and keyboard recorded and played back. The tune stinks but, it still feels great. Thanks brainwreck, hopi Edkilp pattste and everyone else who have helped me. I'll remember you all when my name is in lights, LOL.
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Old 06-04-2014, 12:44 PM   #35
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I was trying to record the sounds the Casio was generating, (instead of just the On/Off messages) in the midi track. Is there a way to to do that?
Yes. Your Casio is a MIDI controller and a sound producing device, both within the same package. It has a set of audio outs, which might only be a stereo headphone out. Connect the Casio's audio out to a set of inputs on your interface or sound card. If you're using a headphone out, start with the level low and increase as needed. In Reaper, set the track's input to the set of inputs which the Casio is connected to. Arm the track, play, and record as usual.
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