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04-27-2010, 06:55 AM
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#1
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,749
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Reaper solo defeat
A note on the solo defeat feature, moved from a prerelease thread where someone was trying to use Reaper's solo defeat as if it were Pro Tools solo safe.
Reaper track solos do not work the way Pro Tools solos work. The new solo defeat feature is not an attempt to mimic Pro Tools solos.
In Reaper, when you solo a track, you always hear all of that track's receives. When you solo a track in-place, you also hear all of the track's sends. When you solo a track ignoring routing, you don't hear the track's sends.
Consider 4 tracks A,B,C,D that all send to a bus track E.
A common use for solo-safe in Pro Tools would be to solo-safe E, so that you can solo A+C and hear those tracks plus any effects on E.
In Reaper you don't need to use solo defeat for that. If you want to hear A+C with E active, solo-in-place A+C. If you want to hear A+C with E disabled, solo-ignoring-routing A+C. If you solo-defeat E, you will always hear A+B+C+D which is not what you want.
The usefulness of solo-defeat in Reaper is if you want to ensure that you always hear a particular track regardless of whatever else is soloed *outside* of that track's routing. So if you had a scratch vocal on track X that also goes to bus E, and you want to make sure you always hear the scratch vocal processed through E no matter what else you solo, you would solo-defeat X.
You should be able to accomplish any equivalent routing and soloing in the two apps, but the setup is not the same.
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04-27-2010, 01:29 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Federal Way, Wa
Posts: 87
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Got it, thanks for the good explaination, i appreciate you taking the time to write this.
I was just wondering why some of the pro tools guys were happy to get this feature in Reaper.
Tommy
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04-27-2010, 03:29 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,955
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In theory this means you can set up headphone mixes that are solo proof. Have to use an intermediate track though. Haven't tried it yet myself.
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04-27-2010, 04:24 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sydney Oz
Posts: 8,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub3000
In theory this means you can set up headphone mixes that are solo proof. Have to use an intermediate track though. Haven't tried it yet myself.
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It works great! I have a click track, and another cue track, both routed to phones and solo defeated...awesome!
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04-27-2010, 04:27 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub3000
In theory this means you can set up headphone mixes that are solo proof. Have to use an intermediate track though. Haven't tried it yet myself.
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I tried it quickly using the sws amazing cuebuss commands and it seemed to work well
will try further though. I'm interested to see if it will work well when all of these solo defeated cuebusses are being sent to different outs and then I solo a vocal going to the main outs..
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04-27-2010, 05:37 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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That was one of the workflows this thing was meant to support actually. It's just one of the things folks do with Solo Defeat. Shane keeps synth tracks playable when solo'ing other tracks for example.
I'd keep a talkback track and all headphone mixes safe this way.
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04-27-2010, 06:26 PM
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#7
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Caracas, Venezuela
Posts: 8,676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
That was one of the workflows this thing was meant to support actually. It's just one of the things folks do with Solo Defeat. Shane keeps synth tracks playable when solo'ing other tracks for example.
I'd keep a talkback track and all headphone mixes safe this way.
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Sorry for this off-topic comment but now that you mention 'a talkback track' I recall something that's always bothered me a bit and maybe it's just not possible but worth mention it. In my recording sessions I always have a track that's receiving from all other tracks and at the same time it's sent to the artists' headphones. The input of this track is one input from my console where I have a mic plugged in for talkback purposes (my console doesn't have dedicated talkback functionality). Now, this track is set to 'record disabled' and always armed. If I use 'Monitor Input (Tape Auto Style)' the artists can hear me when the project is stopped but not when playing back, which is what I look for. Do you know if there is a way to make that track behave that way when recording (monitor when stopped/silent when recording)?
__________________
Pressure is what turns coal into diamonds - Michael a.k.a. Runaway
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04-30-2010, 07:34 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Solo defeat isn't needed on the Master?
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05-05-2010, 01:55 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro
In my recording sessions I always have a track that's receiving from all other tracks and at the same time it's sent to the artists' headphones. The input of this track is one input from my console where I have a mic plugged in for talkback purposes (my console doesn't have dedicated talkback functionality). Now, this track is set to 'record disabled' and always armed. If I use 'Monitor Input (Tape Auto Style)' the artists can hear me when the project is stopped but not when playing back, which is what I look for. Do you know if there is a way to make that track behave that way when recording (monitor when stopped/silent when recording)?
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Here's how I handle that:
- Create 2 tracks which send to the artists headphones.
- Label them TB for talkback and HP for headphone
- TB is record-enabled, monitoring only (your mic)
- HP is the whole playback the artist's hearing (except of your voice)
- Instantiate a ReaComp on TB, set it to sidechain-input, ratio 1:100 (as high as it can go), threshold all the way down
- Create a send from track HP to TB channels 3-4 (makes the TB track 4-channel automatically)
DONE ! whenever the slightest bit of signal comes through HP (i.e. playback or recording), reacomp ducks your voice ! Adjust Attack and Release to pretty quick. And a bit of education is needed for musicians who like to fiddle around between takes all the time - since they'll duck your voice with it (adjust threshold of ReaComp!)
BUT - that's just part 1 of the awesomeness:
- Now make HP and TB solo-defeat
Your now able to SOLO certain tracks of the live performance during recording, i.e., listen to the snare-top mic. Since the musicians will still recieve all the tracks, they won't notice.
Seems like we've established a control room bus ! wooohoo !
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05-05-2010, 03:16 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Nice idea.
I was just keeping the talkback track at the very left and toggling the arming button with a keycommand for track 01, plus keeping that toggle on a toolbar icon that I gave a flashy red colour when active.
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05-05-2010, 04:01 AM
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#11
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Caracas, Venezuela
Posts: 8,676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuseburn
Here's how I handle that:
- Create 2 tracks which send to the artists headphones.
- Label them TB for talkback and HP for headphone
- TB is record-enabled, monitoring only (your mic)
- HP is the whole playback the artist's hearing (except of your voice)
- Instantiate a ReaComp on TB, set it to sidechain-input, ratio 1:100 (as high as it can go), threshold all the way down
- Create a send from track HP to TB channels 3-4 (makes the TB track 4-channel automatically)
DONE ! whenever the slightest bit of signal comes through HP (i.e. playback or recording), reacomp ducks your voice ! Adjust Attack and Release to pretty quick. And a bit of education is needed for musicians who like to fiddle around between takes all the time - since they'll duck your voice with it (adjust threshold of ReaComp!)
BUT - that's just part 1 of the awesomeness:
- Now make HP and TB solo-defeat
Your now able to SOLO certain tracks of the live performance during recording, i.e., listen to the snare-top mic. Since the musicians will still recieve all the tracks, they won't notice.
Seems like we've established a control room bus ! wooohoo !
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Wooot! Nice idea
I took it further and I'm using Jeffos' TrackReaControl (Reaper-Only Plug-in) to mute the Talkback track automatically using Parameter Modulation (the signal of the 'Headphones' track toggles it on/off). Thanks a lot fuseburn, I finally killed something that was buggering me for years
__________________
Pressure is what turns coal into diamonds - Michael a.k.a. Runaway
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05-05-2010, 04:02 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,279
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For Talkback, just use the JS version of Massey talkback developed by Jonas:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...88&postcount=9
Based off of the Massey talkback:
http://www.smassey.com/plugin.html
It mutes the plug in when the transport is running and at a user definable threshold.
Shane
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"Music should be performed by the musician not by the engineer."
Michael Wagener 25th July 2005, 02:59 PM
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05-05-2010, 04:36 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: in a hotel room near you
Posts: 1,175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
In Reaper, when you solo a track, you always hear all of that track's receives. When you solo a track in-place, you also hear all of the track's sends..
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Which is why i like it so much. Everytime i solo something i think 'thank you for your foresight in this'. So thank you.
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05-05-2010, 04:45 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Saarlänner
Posts: 1,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuseburn
snip...
Seems like we've established a control room bus ! wooohoo !
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Not really. Try soloing the muso's headphone mix...
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05-05-2010, 06:59 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 472
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I know - but musicians are supposed to play, not to solo-listen to stuff ;-)
Seriously, I don't see the need for a 2nd (3rd 4th etc.) Solo-group - correct me if I'm wrong.
If you want the singer to hear only the soloed channel, simply un-solo-defeat his headphone bus, and all his other receives will be muted according to your solo-selection
This is brilliant for a live-scenario PFL. You have all inputs sent to your "2bus" channel (or maybe more, sidefill, nearfill etc. etc.) and set them all to solo-defeat.
Hit Solo and you'll hear that specific channel alone while it's still playing back over the system.
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05-05-2010, 07:19 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Saarlänner
Posts: 1,141
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The muso of course doesn't need to solo his mix, but when setting up a submix (e.g. for stage monitoring) I'd like to hear what i'm doing and that is currently not possible by simply soloing the submix channel as it's not connected to the master.
And connecting solo defeated tracks to the master isn't such a great idea, because they also play if you solo something else.
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05-05-2010, 09:58 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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Not a great way round it but you could connect the headphone mixes to the master BUT use the sws action that allows you to cycle through what is muted on the master. Either that or using klinke's mcu mod you can select the master (i think) and mute easily the receives. not perfect and would like solution but not too bad.
Also, getting Some USB extenders and some cheap 8 fader usb based midi controllers you can use Jeffos Reasend plug to allow you to assign all that headphone mix track's receives to track controls which can be learnt by the external controller, do that as many times as you like and you have individual personalised mini mixers for each performer saves a lot of money on a distributor box plus mixers.
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05-05-2010, 10:56 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Saarlänner
Posts: 1,141
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It could all be so easy if the solo signal wasn't married to the master.
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05-06-2010, 01:28 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blechi
when setting up a submix (e.g. for stage monitoring) I'd like to hear what i'm doing and that is currently not possible by simply soloing the submix channel as it's not connected to the master.
And connecting solo defeated tracks to the master isn't such a great idea, because they also play if you solo something else.
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hm, ok. I'd deal with it by creating a "Submix Monitor" track, which receives from all of your submixes, and has only a parent send, which is muted by default. Whenever you want to monitor a submix, solo the submix and enable the parent send of your submix monitor (alt-clik on the I/O).
Dont know how an independent Solo Group implementation would look like...Solo-Buttons on all sends and receives ? Clearly a case for an extension, ain't it ?
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05-06-2010, 02:45 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Saarlänner
Posts: 1,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuseburn
hm, ok. I'd deal with it by creating a "Submix Monitor" track, which receives from all of your submixes, and has only a parent send, which is muted by default. Whenever you want to monitor a submix, solo the submix and enable the parent send of your submix monitor (alt-clik on the I/O).
Dont know how an independent Solo Group implementation would look like...Solo-Buttons on all sends and receives ? Clearly a case for an extension, ain't it ?
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Yeah, there are workarounds for this, but that's what they are: workarounds.
I dream it this way:
- Create a track with the solo signal as source and routed directly to the headphones/controlroom monitor output(s).
- If nothing is soloed this track receives a copy of the master.
- If something is soloed this track receives the soloed signal(s). (AFL, PFL, whatever)
- Soloing using this track is possible regardless where the soloed track is routed to.
- Soloing something doesn't affect other tracks/outputs in any way.
Et voilà, now you have a controlroom.
EDITing the dream: If a project doesn't contain a track with solo as source, everything works as it does now.
Last edited by Blechi; 05-06-2010 at 03:00 AM.
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05-07-2010, 04:11 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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is this a bug devs?
In regards to cuebuss / headphone mix channel that has solo safe active, with 3.51 if I solo a foldered "child" track that only has it's parent (folder) sent to the cuebuss, if I solo any of it's children the solo sent cue buss loses all sends but the soloed child track.
Anyway round this or is it a known bug?
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08-14-2022, 10:14 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 9,048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
A note on the solo defeat feature, moved from a prerelease thread where someone was trying to use Reaper's solo defeat as if it were Pro Tools solo safe.
Reaper track solos do not work the way Pro Tools solos work. The new solo defeat feature is not an attempt to mimic Pro Tools solos.
In Reaper, when you solo a track, you always hear all of that track's receives. When you solo a track in-place, you also hear all of the track's sends. When you solo a track ignoring routing, you don't hear the track's sends.
Consider 4 tracks A,B,C,D that all send to a bus track E.
A common use for solo-safe in Pro Tools would be to solo-safe E, so that you can solo A+C and hear those tracks plus any effects on E.
In Reaper you don't need to use solo defeat for that. If you want to hear A+C with E active, solo-in-place A+C. If you want to hear A+C with E disabled, solo-ignoring-routing A+C. If you solo-defeat E, you will always hear A+B+C+D which is not what you want.
The usefulness of solo-defeat in Reaper is if you want to ensure that you always hear a particular track regardless of whatever else is soloed *outside* of that track's routing. So if you had a scratch vocal on track X that also goes to bus E, and you want to make sure you always hear the scratch vocal processed through E no matter what else you solo, you would solo-defeat X.
You should be able to accomplish any equivalent routing and soloing in the two apps, but the setup is not the same.
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Does there exist, or could there be a way to have a sort of "lvl 2 Solo"? At first that's what I thought this may have meant. So, say I listened to a thing, and soloed it, did some work on it, and then soloed a second thing to layer them and compare, and then maybe a third thing, and now, I would just like to hear that latest on in "for real solo" ungroup with the others, like a super solo, or level 2 solo.
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Slava Ukraini
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08-15-2022, 12:00 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Berlin
Posts: 1,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound asleep
Does there exist, or could there be a way to have a sort of "lvl 2 Solo"? At first that's what I thought this may have meant. So, say I listened to a thing, and soloed it, did some work on it, and then soloed a second thing to layer them and compare, and then maybe a third thing, and now, I would just like to hear that latest on in "for real solo" ungroup with the others, like a super solo, or level 2 solo.
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You could write a toggle action script to do this, couldn't you?
TURN ON
1. cache currently soloed tracks or items
2. solo selected track/item
3. store solo track/item GUIDs
TURN OFF
1. unsolo everything
2. restore track/item solo cache
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08-15-2022, 09:03 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 9,048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sockmonkey72
You could write a toggle action script to do this, couldn't you?
TURN ON
1. cache currently soloed tracks or items
2. solo selected track/item
3. store solo track/item GUIDs
TURN OFF
1. unsolo everything
2. restore track/item solo cache
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That would be amazing. I'll have to try this out. I don't think we can set our own custom mouse modifier behaviour for clicking track buttons, but I could maybe stick it in the menu for tcp, and make a shortcut button. I have some solo buttons, but I'm not sure I have any free modifiers lol.
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Slava Ukraini
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