I was looking at an old book on recording, mixing etc... Written in the late 70's early 80's. I noticed that at almost every paragraph, it would say something like '' beware of problems associated with... Too much noise can be introduced.... Unacceptable tape hiss can accumulate... Frequency response can get more narrow as u go on.... '' etc etc. I thought, man, if I were born back then and somehow travel to present time, where anyone with a computer and a couple hundred buck worth of gear can make quality recordings in their freaking bedrooms, I'd have to slap someone if they complained about even the smallest thing. We've got it made nowadays. I needed to check myself I guess. Make the most of what I have, which is alot more than most musicians and producers had back then (as side from the coveted analog gear we all want(
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
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Yep. What we have at our disposal today was complete fantasy back then.
I started my recording days back in the early 80s and I remember all the things you mentioned well. We used razor blades and sticky tape to make edits and if we did a punch in at the wrong spot on the fly, it would sometimes mean we'd have to do a whole new take.
I still have my first open reel deck and the DBX 154 noise reduction unit I used with it.
I also still have all my analog synth gear too. Even when it became unpopular, it was still the core of my music making workflow and it is all now worth far more on the secondhand market than I paid for it.
.....and no, none of it is for sale!!
Not only is it amazing, but it's amazing in a rapidly evolving, incredibly deflationary way.
Imagine purchasing a toaster...imagine calling the toaster guy and asking him 'when will the next update be available'...imagine updating the two bread toaster to a four bread toaster for no cost and minimum effort.
Imagine the four bread toaster updating to a toaster oven...to a microwave...etc.
But not only is it updating in valuable (and therefore deflationary) ways, the updates (over the medium/long terms) are accelerating...
We're on an asymptote of accelerating values and expanding usefullness. In 40,000 years of human history, there has been nothing like it.
Rock on!
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Yeah, but then people complain about it being "sterile" and "digital" and spend a bunch of money on fancy plugins and "boutique" gear to try to get some of that distortion, coloration, and even noise back in. I find it infinitely amusing that nowadays the thing everybody loves about analog gear is the way that it fails.
Yeah, but then people complain about it being "sterile" and "digital" and spend a bunch of money on fancy plugins and "boutique" gear to try to get some of that distortion, coloration, and even noise back in. I find it infinitely amusing that nowadays the thing everybody loves about analog gear is the way that it fails.
There's been some of that for a very long time though, it's not just since the advent of digital audio.
Just look at the history of guitar distortion - overdriven amps, ripped speaker cones, blown preamps...
It's just the many, many faces of "it can't be me, must be the gear" that have existed since we made the first arrowhead and it didn't kill the prey for us.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
Even in computer land, we are getting spoiled. I remember fifteen years ago, having to bounce/freeze almost everything just to keep the CPU from melting. You couldn't use convolution reverb without tons of latency.
Now even a cheap, sub-$100 SSD is more than enough for running huge Kontakt libraries and streaming a hundred audio tracks at a time. And you can grab a widescreen 24" monitor for about the same amount, too. And you can get amazing, professional-quality plugins without spending a dime. Or just record, mix, and master an entire album using your cell phone.
As a result, now we can all put our garbage on the airwaves. And because there isn't as much money going around for the artists, the real money is in enabling the artists with gear and instruction.
Of course, "making it" is all about who you know. Talent is almost inconsequential. That's the same as it ever was.
Yeah, but then people complain about it being "sterile" and "digital" and spend a bunch of money on fancy plugins and "boutique" gear to try to get some of that distortion, coloration, and even noise back in. I find it infinitely amusing that nowadays the thing everybody loves about analog gear is the way that it fails.
Some people are looking at flaws or limitations/restrictions as a way to force creativity. (That's what they claim anyway.) But most people have absolutely no understanding of the analog front end that you are ultimately capturing signal from.
"But... I recorded digitally." Right, but what did you have going on for the mic, mic preamp, and how good is the analog front end in your AD converters? Go super ratty cheap on the analog front end and you perfectly digitize sterile tinny audio.
The analog gear we still need hasn't actually changed very much over these years. Sure there are more choices and stronger magnets to build mics with but you still need to handle analog signals correctly and equipment choices can make a difference.
But for everything downstream from that in the digital domain, this is the golden age of audio right now without question! We are VERY spoiled! As is the consumer. 24 bit HD 5.1 flac file downloads and you have literally the master recording as it came off the mastering desk on your home system.
Even in computer land, we are getting spoiled. I remember fifteen years ago, having to bounce/freeze almost everything just to keep the CPU from melting. You couldn't use convolution reverb without tons of latency.
Now even a cheap, sub-$100 SSD is more than enough for running huge Kontakt libraries and streaming a hundred audio tracks at a time. And you can grab a widescreen 24" monitor for about the same amount, too. And you can get amazing, professional-quality plugins without spending a dime. Or just record, mix, and master an entire album using your cell phone.
As a result, now we can all put our garbage on the airwaves. And because there isn't as much money going around for the artists, the real money is in enabling the artists with gear and instruction.
Of course, "making it" is all about who you know. Talent is almost inconsequential. That's the same as it ever was.
Man, you're right about that. I remember about 2, years ago getting 'signed' was every band's dream. Popular musicians were most likely millionaires, now it's a double edged sword. We can do everything ourselves but as a result the industry is flooded with every 15 year old with a laptop having an album on iTunes
...as a result the industry is flooded with every 15 year old with a laptop having an album on iTunes
I personally see this as a good thing. Everybody bitches about it as though we actually need those fat fuck profiteers as "gatekeepers". I say screw that. Let everybody and their brother and their grandma post whatever crap they manage to record via their laptop microphones! It means something to somebody and there is a very good chance that at least one or two of the billions of other people on this World Wide Web might appreciate it too. However unlikely they might be to actually find it amongst all the other horrible crap, it's a lot better chance than if it never got recorded at all, or was sitting on a rapidly deteriorating CDR in somebody's closet.
I personally see this as a good thing. Everybody bitches about it as though we actually need those fat fuck profiteers as "gatekeepers". I say screw that. Let everybody and their brother and their grandma post whatever crap they manage to record via their laptop microphones! It means something to somebody and there is a very good chance that at least one or two of the billions of other people on this World Wide Web might appreciate it too. However unlikely they might be to actually find it amongst all the other horrible crap, it's a lot better chance than if it never got recorded at all, or was sitting on a rapidly deteriorating CDR in somebody's closet.
It's got to be better than some smug A&R guy with a greasy ponytail deciding what the kids will think is cool.
On the flip side of that, there isn't the money for artist development anymore.
These conversations always remind me of this nugget from Mr. Zappa:
Even in computer land, we are getting spoiled. I remember fifteen years ago, having to bounce/freeze almost everything just to keep the CPU from melting. You couldn't use convolution reverb without tons of latency.
Yeah, the quip used to be "The mix isn't finished until the computer is maxed out!" I haven't been able to max out my current machines with audio and believe me I've tried. Live sound gigs. Studio projects with 100's of tracks and plugins (including multiple convolution verbs). Known buggy plugins. And these are circa 2009 machines.
It's got to be better than some smug A&R guy with a greasy ponytail deciding what the kids will think is cool.
I totally agree but what I don't buy is that the free for all approach is much better. There is no panacea here, either it is filtered in some fashion before it gets to those looking for it, or those looking have to wade through an endless see of shit, and most who aren't like us, won't and shouldn't have to do that wading. "Give me the best steak you can find, I don't care how you do it" which has both advantages and disadvantages.
The bigger point is that we, as musicians etc., are utterly irrelevant because we, as much as we think we are, are not the important part of the demographic. It's easy to forget that most anyone in this forum is more than willing to do the digging, the other 99.9% of the public isn't - they have other things in life they are as passionate about as we are music - they literally want it spoon fed to them.
I think it is better though to think of it as I can expose what I create to the entire globe, instantaneously. That is farking amazing compared to 20 years ago. Love it, be thankful and let the filtering and pop stuff just do it's thing as it always has - having both is likely the best answer.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 07-13-2017 at 04:34 PM.
I totally agree but what I don't buy is that the free for all approach is much better. There is no panacea here, either it is filtered in some fashion before it gets to those looking for it, or those looking have to wade through an endless see of shit, and most who aren't like us, won't and shouldn't have to do that wading. "Give me the best steak you can find, I don't care how you do it" which has both advantages and disadvantages.
The bigger point is that we, as musicians etc., are utterly irrelevant because we, as much as we think we are, are not the important part of the demographic. It's easy to forget that most anyone in this forum is more than willing to do the digging, the other 99.9% of the public isn't - they have other things in life they are as passionate about as we are music - they literally want it spoon fed to them.
Yep.
It's the curation that we haven't sussed yet.
Lots of people lost a career in the music industry, it's a bit better for the bottom of the pile in terms of getting heard now, but it's still apocalyptic rather than a revolution in music distribution.
Like every other creative industry these days, it tends to be only the rich kids who can afford to really hone their craft while mummy and daddy bankroll them. That's what I was on about when I was bemoaning the lack of funds for artist development since the collapse of the major labels (or rather, the major labels becoming Spotify investors so they get to screw their artists twice).
"the real talent has no money, and the untalented are rolling in it"
There is an in the weeds side discussion that goes with that. In order to truly be good enough, you almost by default have to have a lack of all other necessary skills (like business and development), often to the point of dysfunction, so it is extremely rare for the talent to have the talent and the business acumen and because of that, it will somewhat always be that way. Talent doesn't have managers and middlemen because they are being screwed (screwed is a byproduct), it's because they usually, literally can't perform that function.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
"the real talent has no money, and the untalented are rolling in it"
There is an in the weeds side discussion that goes with that. In order to truly be good enough, you almost by default have to have a lack of all other necessary skills (like business and development), often to the point of dysfunction, so it is extremely rare for the talent to have the talent and the business acumen and because of that, it will somewhat always be that way. Talent doesn't have managers and middlemen because they are being screwed (screwed is a byproduct), it's because they usually, literally can't perform that function.
I think we're getting back to how it used to be with patronage, except now it's bands singing up as "content creators" for corporations.
If people were really serious about their art, they'd live on soya beans for 6 months to record an album, like Beefheart did
If people were really serious about their art, they'd live on soya beans for 6 months to record an album, like Beefheart did
There is some truth to that.
Surely I told you the story of when we only had a single lightbulb and carried it from room to room. When one of us had to take a shower, someone waited in the dark. Ah the days of eating cookies as my main diet for a week straight, I don't really miss those days but I wouldn't trade them for anything else.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
I think I'd probably be pretty good at management and marketing. Back in the day, I was involved in organizing and promoting most of the original music events in town, and sort of did some half-assed A&R. My day job for years has been customer service, so I have strong professional communications skills.
But I hate everything to do with trying to schmooze and sell things. Like even trying to get my band booked for gigs, or trying to convince other folks to come record at my place. I'll make things. I'll help you make things. I don't care to try to sell it at all. Just throw it over my shoulder and move on.
I put my stuff on the internet so that I can get to it whenever I want from wherever I am.
I can remember sitting around in 95 fantasizing about having a "Virtual Studio". That was right around the time that Steinberg coopted the term (VSTechnology). We're not quite to the Virtual Reality game that I had envisioned back then, but we're really darn close.
I think I'd probably be pretty good at management and marketing. Back in the day, I was involved in organizing and promoting most of the original music events in town, and sort of did some half-assed A&R. My day job for years has been customer service, so I have strong professional communications skills.
But I hate everything to do with trying to schmooze and sell things. Like even trying to get my band booked for gigs, or trying to convince other folks to come record at my place. I'll make things. I'll help you make things. I don't care to try to sell it at all. Just throw it over my shoulder and move on.
I put my stuff on the internet so that I can get to it whenever I want from wherever I am.
I can remember sitting around in 95 fantasizing about having a "Virtual Studio". That was right around the time that Steinberg coopted the term (VSTechnology). We're not quite to the Virtual Reality game that I had envisioned back then, but we're really darn close.
It's like I'm reading my frigging own biography, I'm not even going to elaborate because it's to god damn exactly like me.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
I seem to remember that a certain obscure musician called Jeff Lynne has one too (it was visible in a recent documentary about him.) Very aspirational machine in its day... I have no idea what mics we used to record our folksy whimsy but shudder to think the tape may still be out there somewhere!
Yeah spoilt - was when I could spend money earnt doing summer jobs.
Before that I had one of these in 1961, with a "magic eye" style meter - two bars came in from each side of the little window - if they crossed and got brighter in the middle, you were too hot (a la Ghostbusters - "don't cross the beams!").
It had a mic and a line input - yay 2 inputs - 1/2 track mono machine though! This is the mic!!!!
Modern computer recording and processing is amazingly powerful and flexible. On the recording, editing, and unapologetically digital processing side of things, it's amazing what can be done. On the dsp emulation side, I only wish that the sound would catch up to the marketing.
I remember being a 20 something, getting advice from a local guitar shop owner on gear. He was a rare bird in that he gave his honest opinion, good or bad on the things that he sold. When the line 6 amps were becoming the rage (more like, the marketing influence was in overdrive) I was considering one, and I asked his opinion on them. What he said made alot of sense and slapped the marketing out of my head in favor of listening. Do you want an amp that half-ass does everything, or an amp that does something really well? I was into metal at the time, so I went with the dual rectifier from another shop, which he recommended. A few years down the road, I had gotten bitten by computer recording, my music tastes had drastically changed, and I was again considering a versatile digital amp. A friend who had gotten deep into tone and gear essentially told me the same thing when I was considering a modified fender twin. Yea, that amp is a one trick pony but it does that one thing really well and it works for the stuff that you play. You have to make up your mind whether you want something that does everything not very well, or something that does that one thing really well. I went with the fender. The real kicker was when he dragged some amps (a twin and a jcm800) up to my place and we compared them to a line 6 amp. The digital amp sounded like a toy, both solo and with live drums and bass. We even tried each amp through the other's cab and the digital amp just sounded muddy, grainy, and shrill in comparison.
That still seems to be where dsp processing is at for analog emulations - amps, tape, compressors, etc. Dsp emulations do everything not very well, but you would never know it by the marketing and resulting user buzz.
Maybe the next great front in digital audio is honesty in dsp emulation, because so long as the marketing replaces the sound there is no urgency to evolve toward really good emulations.
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Last edited by brainwreck; 07-14-2017 at 10:02 AM.
Modern computer recording and processing is amazingly powerful and flexible. On the recording, editing, and unapologetically digital processing side of things, it's amazing what can be done. On the dsp emulation side, I only wish that the sound would catch up to the marketing.
I remember being a 20 something, getting advice from a local guitar shop owner on gear. He was a rare bird in that he gave his honest opinion, good or bad on the things that he sold. When the line 6 amps were becoming the rage (more like, the marketing influence was in overdrive) I was considering one, and I asked his opinion on them. What he said made alot of sense and slapped the marketing out of my head in favor of listening. Do you want an amp that half-ass does everything, or an amp that does something really well? I was into metal at the time, so I went with the dual rectifier from another shop, which he recommended. A few years down the road, I had gotten bitten by computer recording, my music tastes had drastically changed, and I was again considering a versatile digital amp. A friend who had gotten deep into tone and gear essentially told me the same thing when I was considering a modified fender twin. Yea, that amp is a one trick pony but it does that one thing really well and it works for the stuff that you play. You have to make up your mind whether you want something that does everything not very well, or something that does that one thing really well. I went with the fender. The real kicker was when he dragged some amps (a twin and a jcm800) up to my place and we compared them to a line 6 amp. The digital amp sounded like a toy, both solo and with live drums and bass. We even tried each amp through the other's cab and the digital amp just sounded muddy, grainy, and shrill in comparison.
That still seems to be where dsp processing is at for analog emulations - amps, tape, compressors, etc. Dsp emulations do everything not very well, but you would never know it by the marketing and resulting user buzz.
Maybe the next great front in digital audio is honesty in dsp emulation, because so long as the marketing replaces the sound there is no urgency to evolve toward really good emulations.
The main problem is that very few people have the experience of years of critical listening with high quality equipment. This makes them easy victims of cynical marketing.
Most marketing of audio DSP products is PURE bullshit, and people should not support companies that engage in it.
... One could read a lot into the obsession for recreating old gear digitally. Does nobody weep for the rightful inventors of the equipment not getting paid? Is it an extension of the 'something for nothing' culture? How does it relate to the 'freetard' mind set... questions questions LOL
Audio marketing BS did not begin with DSP just so we don't forget. Then again, as I state over and over and over. Every person will always be tasked with separating wheat/chaff on their own; and the information is there. Expecting they should be spoon fed perfect facts (in an ultimately subjective world where each man's wheat varies) is silly because that doesn't exist anywhere in our universe.
That's not about anyone here, we just seem to be overlooking the big picture. As far as one amp doing one thing good and DSP amp doing everything half way, that is also a physical fact of our universe whether that be an amp or a blender.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 07-15-2017 at 09:08 AM.
Audio marketing BS did not begin with DSP just so we don't forget. Then again, as I state over and over and over. Every person will always be tasked with separating wheat/chaff on their own; and the information is there. Expecting they should be spoon fed perfect facts (in an ultimately subjective world where each man's wheat varies) is silly because that doesn't exist anywhere in our universe.
That's not about anyone here, we just seem to be overlooking the big picture. As far as one amp doing one thing good and DSP amp doing everything half way, that is also a physical fact of our universe whether that be an amp or a blender.
You are right, but DSP emulation of real world equipment is not subjective, it can be measured. It is just that the only people who have the time/skill/original gear for comparison to do this will be the manufacturer, who has a vested interest in not releasing the data.
U-he, who is probably at the cutting edge of emulation, said in an interview recently that it would require a whole new generation of hardware to create a perfect emulation. This is not a fact that you hear much in the world of marketing!
You are right, but DSP emulation of real world equipment is not subjective, it can be measured. It is just that the only people who have the time/skill/original gear for comparison to do this will be the manufacturer, who has a vested interest in not releasing the data.
U-he, who is probably at the cutting edge of emulation, said in an interview recently that it would require a whole new generation of hardware to create a perfect emulation. This is not a fact that you hear much in the world of marketing!
I get that but I invite anyone to go pull CDs whathaveyou and list everything that is/isn't DSP based on what they hear. The thing that is always missing is the willingness to A/B/X test in context and so on. I'm not for DSP over Analog (coming from a guy like me with a room full of analog gear), I'm for what works in a mix and if it does, I couldn't care less where it came from - and marketing does not make me feel differently in one direction or the other, but my ears might. Maybe if people didn't amplify the problem as much as they do, I wouldn't feel this way.
I suppose I'm not really discussing marketing above but I was never a sucker for that and most people generally aren't either - not as much as we often claim. I'm well aware marketing has to make everything magical and shiny, that's life and we don't have people ending up in the soup line due to marketing because we generally aren't that stupid, albeit we love to blame marketing for something we need to do anyway.... listening and making our own individual decisions - that's really and truly all there is to it.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 07-15-2017 at 10:18 AM.
You are right, but DSP emulation of real world equipment is not subjective, it can be measured. It is just that the only people who have the time/skill/original gear for comparison to do this will be the manufacturer, who has a vested interest in not releasing the data.
U-he, who is probably at the cutting edge of emulation, said in an interview recently that it would require a whole new generation of hardware to create a perfect emulation. This is not a fact that you hear much in the world of marketing!
This may be true in absolute terms. However it also serves them (and similar companies) to say that the tech is not perfect yet, keeping the door open for new versions of the same software every few years, with each new gen of chips.
The main problem is that very few people have the experience of years of critical listening with high quality equipment. This makes them easy victims of cynical marketing.
Most marketing of audio DSP products is PURE bullshit, and people should not support companies that engage in it.
... One could read a lot into the obsession for recreating old gear digitally. Does nobody weep for the rightful inventors of the equipment not getting paid? Is it an extension of the 'something for nothing' culture? How does it relate to the 'freetard' mind set... questions questions LOL
The thing is that we don't necessarily need years of experience with high end equipment. We just need to shed off the marketing and listen. For example, for evaluating dsp analog mix simulation plugins, listen to some of the many many past recordings and then try to find any examples of recordings which use analog emulations that actually have the same sorts of audio qualities. Listen to how things compress, distortion characteristics, harmonics. Right off the bat, the scent of bs is very strong. Then actually use some of the emulations to try and produce some of the audio characteristics of analog mixed examples, where it then becomes even more obvious. If you do some digging, you can even find multi-tracks of past recordings for deeper comparison, where things become more obvious yet. For something like guitar amps, go into a shop and play side by side through a digital amp (that has real speakers in a real room) and compare it to a tube amp. The differences in general audio qualities will be very apparent. For software sims, find some isolated guitar tracks from multi-tracks and try to produce those types of sounds.
By the way, I am not saying that everyone involved in creating analog emulations is dishonest. But let's be sensible about it. When a company is telling you that the emulation sounds like the thing that it is emulating, creates gui's which look like the thing being emulated, goes on and on about the accuracy of the emulation, but never ponies up with some fundamental A/B audio comparisons which actually demonstrate that the emulation sounds like the thing being emulated, then yes, that company is being dishonest.
And you bring up a good point. Companies don't do much talking about the current limitations of emulating hardware. That might spoil the psychological illusion (the selling point) of having plugins which accurately replace hardware. On amps for example, no one ever produced a transistor amp that sounds like a blackface fender, yet we are to believe that software somehow transformed transistors, giving them physics defying transfer curves and other impossible properties. *Sniff*
On that note, is it cool to have emulations where we can't have a fullblown studio decked out with hardware? Yep. But let's be honest about what it is and what it isn't. And when something sounds bad, let's not allow marketing (or forum buzz) to affect what we hear.
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It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
Last edited by brainwreck; 07-15-2017 at 10:51 AM.
I mean, I have in fact done side by side comparisons of a Rat pedal against not the PodFarm version and the one I wrote in JS and found them to be way close enough for me. I've also compared my Vox AC4 though a microphone to the PodFarm AC30 and again was close enough that differences in mic placement (and speaker size) could account for it. I don't mess with full on hardware emulations of consoles and comps and things, really.
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
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Along with the cost of turning out a record going down and don, so has the cost of acquiring the resultant "product", which means that with the effective devaluation of music as a pure art form, all the dross that would never have seen the light of day in the major outlets just buries anything that is actually worth listening to. Unless you are, as ashcat_l t said an expert marketer/promoter, it STILL doesnt matter if you are a great (insert writer singer player option here) you probably still wont surface above the sea of cheese.
it STILL doesnt matter if you are a great (insert writer singer player option here)
It never has really because the music business has never been a meritocracy. It is more so when trying to make a dime paying bills in your local scene (because cats in the money making bands won't hire a crappy player) but as far as the music business and being 'known', it isn't.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
My first reel to reel was like a Sony TC-200 or something - early '60's.
Today I'm in heaven, believe me.
Totally agree.
I also started with a reel to real and then porta studio
Compare 'sound on sound' to todays DAW/VST world. Parallell universes.
I always hated mixing until VST appeared.
Basically 2 indpendent mono dolby B units. And you could dolby up on one channel and dolby down on the other. Neat for bouncing in those days.
All before the 4 and 8 track stuff on 1/4" tape. Was able to "borrow" a Revox now and then as well - luxury!
dB
Man, I envy you. You old school guys actually know how to hook stuff up, I admit, if a program or plug in can do it for me, I'm all in. I imagine you're better at using your ears for things too, with so much visual candy for computer recording, I have to remind myself to turn off the monitor and actually LISTEN to the audio....
Man.... We get spoiled
Ah the days of eating cookies as my main diet for a week straight, I don't really miss those days but I wouldn't trade them for anything else.
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