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Old 11-12-2017, 07:10 PM   #1
RDBOIS
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Default TRUE peak limiter / clipper with Reaper Stock Plugins?

Hello.


I'm using Reaper JS Event Horizon Limiter/Clipper and when I set the ceiling at, say, -1.0 it only seems to work properly within the confines of Reaper's sound/volume/level measuring tools. Outside of Reaper, if I analyze the True Peak, with YouLean for example, I can get a peak of -0.1, for example.

Any tips on how I can set -1.0 and GET -1.0 (true peak)?

Other than searching the entire song to tame a frequency peak, cut a transient, over compress, setting the ceiling at -2.0 so that I eventually can hope to get -1.0 at the other end... I'm sort of fed up of doing these kind of random adjustments. Would be nice to set a ceiling at the end of the chain.

Thanks
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Old 11-13-2017, 04:32 AM   #2
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You simply need to use a limiter that has a true peak mode.
Unlimited is a free option worth a look.
http://sonic.supermaailma.net/plugins

Limiter No6 is another free option though it's far more complicated.
https://vladgsound.wordpress.com/plugins/limiter6/
(isp protect is the true peak option)

If you really like the sound of your current limiter I guess you could always add one of these after it just to catch the TP without doing any other limiting.
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Old 11-13-2017, 05:33 AM   #3
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Are you sure (because you seem to analyze a rendered output file if I understood you right) you're not measuring intersample peaks?
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Old 11-13-2017, 06:41 AM   #4
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True Peak and Intersample peak are the same thing?

So yes, he is measuring ISP as he is using a true peak meter (Youlean) on the rendered file.
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Old 11-13-2017, 08:57 AM   #5
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I don't understand why people worry about intersample peaks... There's no intersample data in the digital audio file and it's the DAC's problem if it can't reproduce them.

There's obviously a 0dB limit on the samples going-into the DAC, but there's no reason the analog-output has to be limited to 0dB.

And even if the DAC clips on an intersample peak, I doubt anybody can hear it (in a proper blind listening test). Besides, during playback the level is often digitally attenuated before it hits the DAC (depending on the playback system and where the volume control is).
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Old 11-13-2017, 09:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVDdoug View Post
I don't understand why people worry about intersample peaks...
IIRC he is submitting for a contest which has output requirements. I agree with everything you say but there is one point that is important... It's great to stress and worry about this in order to learn how to be able to control the output to any standard one is asked to provide, regardless of what it sounds like.

It's very often true that outside of home studio work (and even then if we need to send to someone), we are asked to produce output to meet some set of standards. Being able to do that properly and accurately when asked is more important than what people hear or think they hear; or what is or isn't damaging and so on. It's more about being able to perform the steps and arrive at the requested output params.

OP: Just back it off a tad to manually avoid ISPs. Then download Orban Loudness Meter, drag/drop into orban, it will give you integrated and TP values. It shouldn't take but a couple tries to end up with a render that meets the spec/target you are trying to achieve. Because... the contest output requirement is more about all entries having the same perceived loudness for judging purposes.

https://www.orban.com/meter

Here are some examples assuming a target of -14 LUFS / -0.1 TP...

- If orban shows a TP of +1 and an integrated value of -13 LUFS, turn it down ~1 dB and you'll have ~-14 LUFS.
- If orban shows a TP of -0.1 and an integrated value of -17, you need to compress/limit it a tad more (about 3dB more) so that you have room to increase the output by 3dB. aka -17+3 = -14.
- If orban shows a TP of -0.1 and an intergrated value of -10, you need to use less compression/limiting (about 4 dB less).
- If orban shows a TP of -1 and an integrated value of -15, turn it up about 1 dB.

As you can see, it's a game of how much compression vs. peak output level, but the LUFs measurement needs to have TPs near zero to not require readjusting gain after the fact (aka by whomever receives it).
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Last edited by karbomusic; 11-13-2017 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 11-13-2017, 09:27 AM   #7
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I don't understand why people worry about intersample peaks...
Karbomusic is correct, I'm participating in a mixing contest and one of the requirements is 'no peaks higher than -1.0. Another is 'only use Reaper stock plugins'.

So... I'm trying to find a way to limit True peak in Reaper. Thus far it has been both a frustrating and learning experience. Some things I've learned is:

- The digital peak (if that is what you call it?) can show at -1.0, but the true peak go as high as + 0.3

- You can tame true peak if you set a digital limiter well below 0, sometimes up to 2.5db, but most of the song will be more quiet. And the LUFS goes down, which bring another issue...

- You can find the places where inter-sample peaking occurs in the song and zero in on the instrument, and tame that particular sonic area/sample, but it takes time

- You can tame some inter-sample peaking with a fast attack compression, but that changes the entire mix

- If you slap on a true peak limiter at -1.0, such as Limiter No6, then you can digital limit the song at -1.0 and therefore most of the song will actually be limited at -1.0, only a few places the Limiter No6 will actually serve a function. You will see in the view meters where both limiting (and the amount) is occurring.

- If you try to 'true limit' a song with a true peak limiter it is difficult to keep the dynamics of a song (the range), because everything you need to do will end up compressing/lowering the top. I'm starting to think that 'shaving off the top' is a useful tool. And therefore, having a true peak limiter will get you a very nice close and neat shave; not a half-done shaving job that feels like sandpaper to a woman kissing your face (sheeesh, that's a strange analogy?)

Anyway. I guess the answer is no? You can't true peak limit with Reaper stock plugins?
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Old 11-13-2017, 09:48 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
Anyway. I guess the answer is no? You can't true peak limit with Reaper stock plugins?
The reason I made the suggestion I made is purely because TP calculation is a bit of an educated guess in the digital realm so even with a TP limiter you'll still likely be rendering, calculate the resulit in some tool like orban, adjust, rinse/repeat.

I'd encourage you to just sweat that part out because everything I now know about TP/LUFs, I learned while researching how to meet the requirements of that same contest. Meaning, it hurt a lot getting over the initial hump and understanding, but once it clicked, I was off to the races and is not something that I ever need to struggle with again - because I ended up understanding it so much better and now know how to control the ouput (from a LUFs perpsective) vs hanging on for dear life LOL.
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Old 11-13-2017, 10:59 AM   #9
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As Karbo says it's good to get some idea of how this works but for the contest specifically:

They only specify no peaks over -1db.

They only allow Reaper plugs which as you say do not have any True Peak limiting.

So were I mixing for that contest I would not be going anywhere near a true peak meter
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Old 11-13-2017, 01:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
OP: Just back it off a tad to manually avoid ISPs. Then download Orban Loudness Meter, drag/drop into orban, it will give you integrated and TP values. It shouldn't take but a couple tries to end up with a render that meets the spec/target you are trying to achieve. Because... the contest output requirement is more about all entries having the same perceived loudness for judging purposes.

https://www.orban.com/meter
Karbo's right and the Orban meter he posted is absolutely great for telling you where you are. I've even used it for realtime mixing, but that's another story.
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Old 11-13-2017, 01:26 PM   #11
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True Peak is always an estimate. It might be nice if everybody observed some standard on how to calculate that estimate. Unfortunately it is completely possible for your meter to disagree with somebody else's meter. Worse,it's almost likely that your TP limiter won't agree with your TP meter. And of course none of it really says anything about how the playback device will handle it, and that varies wildly.

But yeah, if this is for the Reaper Mixing Contest, you don't have to worry about TP. That -1dbfs ceiling is there specifically to allow room for some "intersample peaks".
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:18 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Stella645 View Post

They only specify no peaks over -1db.

They only allow Reaper plugs which as you say do not have any True Peak limiting.

So were I mixing for that contest I would not be going anywhere near a true peak meter

Flawless logic! Can't argue with that. This makes my life much easier.

But, the education was great. Thanks everyone for helping me understand more about the issues surrounding True Peak.

Off I go until the next hurdle.

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Old 11-13-2017, 03:29 PM   #13
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Karbo's right and the Orban meter he posted is absolutely great for telling you where you are. I've even used it for realtime mixing, but that's another story.
Gonna try it!
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:35 AM   #14
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Off I go until the next hurdle.

So, which of the JS limiters did you end up using? I'm struggling with them.
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:20 AM   #15
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Hello-try this logic-- use oversampling.
Make your mix- do your compression//limiting w/e etc get that to peak @ -3db.
Now render that mix- but do a 2x oversample (2x your mixing sample rate) @ 16bit render if your going to a lossless format -32bit for masterings.
Rea_import and then set any limiter @ your final output level for distributions.
Scope it and check your final peak level with your isp visual plugins.
The 'problem' is interface phase,because reaper will give a differring peak level until a crest in the phase has been reached- many people do not consider this..at all...
One must be aware of the lossy convertion processing changing db levels.

Make a short loop in your projects-and watch the peak levels change as your loop is repeated,until a nominal is reached there. Burp.

Last edited by Bri1; 11-15-2017 at 09:25 AM. Reason: 1Xtra
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:41 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1 View Post
Hello-try this logic-- use oversampling.
Make your mix- do your compression//limiting w/e etc get that to peak @ -3db.
Now render that mix- but do a 2x oversample (2x your mixing sample rate) @ 16bit render if your going to a lossless format -32bit for masterings.
Rea_import and then set any limiter @ your final output level for distributions.
Scope it and check your final peak level with your isp visual plugins.
The 'problem' is interface phase,because reaper will give a differring peak level until a crest in the phase has been reached- many people do not consider this..at all...
One must be aware of the lossy convertion processing changing db levels.

Make a short loop in your projects-and watch the peak levels change as your loop is repeated,until a nominal is reached there. Burp.
Now that is technical stuff right there! I'll try it, but it's all new to me. Let's see if I can figure this out.

Thanks. I shall report back.
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:42 AM   #17
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Oh- this is MOST important- what is your project playback resampling mode set to in reaper? >this alone can have a dramatic effect on what is both seen and heard..
Best checked tbh.! only scope at higher playback modes [imo]
A lot of programmes do not have these options at all-just 1 default setting i guess..
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:07 AM   #18
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Thanks Bri.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:03 PM   #19
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Lolz-not sure what for-- but hey-- if anything helps people out of a 'rut' -then i'm happier... =)
Info could be totally bogus of course--is why these things are best 'checked' for oneself.
All this peak limiting for 16+24bit limitations> are soon to be a thing of the past.. i welcome that move forward as more people have access to 32bit interfacing, ||hopefully|| leading more to a *standardized* 96khz/32bit for all playback types of devices for all.
A new standard needs setting internationally+globally [imo].

Zero crossing maximizer is ok in reaper,user just needs to be aware of how much a convertion process will be affecting db levels >and then your golden. =)

Btw- i do not charge pounds or pence--only peanuts. coz u know,iza cheeky> 🐵
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:23 PM   #20
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Well, you've offered suggestions so I figure thanks are in order.

It might take me some time to wrap my head around the whole thing. I've never had to deal with LUFS requirements and, normally, I use Limiter 6 as opposed to JS limiters (of which there are half a dozen or so to try to figure out).

At any rate, it's all a good learning experience.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:32 PM   #21
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At any rate, it's all a good learning experience.
Aye^ this indeed is 1 thing that any1 can be certain of !! the learning curves are a non stop process for us all.
Ty-there's work to be done!! i better get on with it!!
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:16 AM   #22
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Zero crossing maximizer is ok in reaper,user just needs to be aware of how much a convertion process will be affecting db levels >and then your golden. =)

Btw- i do not charge pounds or pence--only peanuts. coz u know,iza cheeky> 🐵
Well. When I first read your comment regarding the "Zero crossing maximizer" I was curious, but nothing more.

Then, while looking at the Project workflow of this months Reaper Mixing Contest I noticed he's got it on the vocals and the Master track. So now I'm very curious. Would you mind informing us on what it does? How is it different than, say, JS- Event Horizon?

And ohhh! We're in luck, it just so happens that my first hobby is gardening and every year I grow buckets of 'better than Organic' peanuts! Even better, soon I plan on purchasing a 'cold oil screw press', which means I'll not only have peanuts, but peanut cooking oil and peanut butter. Along with all the other Okra, Sunflower, Cucuzzi, and any other oils I can get from pressing seeds. I also have many different kinds of medicinal herbs, most of which are wild species that I foster on my land. I also make my own essential oils, and so on.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:19 AM   #23
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Quote:
Would you mind informing us on what it does? How is it different than, say, JS- Event Horizon?
Um-well all i can type is that js is quite old to date--written by author: LOSER.
It's still in my favs..
If you hit 'edit' in the js editor-- you can see the code- then if you goto this page--> https://www.reaper.fm/sdk/js/js.php < basically describes all the functions-- there's no easy way to explain it tbh unless you get the code bit....
Ok-i am NOT a code monkey-but i do get the main gist of informations-- it does what it says it does-- reads sample zero crossings -and then, *maximizes* it -it's not rocket science,but most code/function is just plain mathematics..
LOSER is your man to describe in detail about this,not i.

About the nuts-i see what you wrote,and that seems quite impressive!! -well done-- would love to visit,to get a portion of them nutty experiments!!
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:37 AM   #24
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Hey-sorry- forgot to add- i think a user is more likely to be getting 'intersample peaks' if they push the rms too high-- this creates a lot of energy close to 0db- that gets overdriven when it comes to lossy convertions.
When you push the rms/lu/vu w/e your pushing the bulk of waveform to a maximum-- because of the way daws process- the qauntizing --spares nobody-- the energy has to go somewhere--so it gets pushed 'over' final 0db levels if not converted 'properly'. make sense? maybe...
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:56 AM   #25
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here's a TINY ISP meter... It doesn't limit, just measures to see if there's an actual problem that needs a solution.

https://vladgsound.wordpress.com/tag/isp-meter/
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Old 12-01-2017, 01:43 PM   #26
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I haven't actually opened the thing to look, but the idea behind the Zero Crossing Maximizer is that when it finds a peak that it wants to squash down, it looks back to the last zero crossing and forward to the next and then turns down everything in between so that the peak doesn't exceed the limit. This obviously requires a delay, and can only work well if that delay is at least half as long as the lowest frequency in the signal, and of course wouldn't be a whole lot of fun trying to monitor through it on live input.


What it works out to is almost like an intelligent attack/release, except I think without any ramping at all. I've never used it, but I can see where it might be a very transparent and cleanish way of limiting peaks.
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:18 PM   #27
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About the nuts-i see what you wrote,and that seems quite impressive!! -well done-- would love to visit,to get a portion of them nutty experiments!!
I'm about 1hr from New Orleans in Mississippi, an exiled french speaking Quebecois, Canadian. I'm always open for visitors, who always leave with baskets of free food (and heirloom seeds).


This is what my garden looked like two weeks ago:

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Old 12-01-2017, 03:47 PM   #28
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This is what my garden looked like two weeks ago:
Wow--like the land-- i really like that land- sell me that land -- give me that land!!! - lolz - no seriously -- you appear to be a very intelligeant + well connected person to gaia-- we need more people like you in todays world imo- the idea of sacred gardening is my cup of tea!! i believe all life is sacred.
It looks like your doing maximizing of your own kind- =brilliant job,well done m8. =)
Oh! and you know what-- that video right-- it contains many songs-- = would use that to your advantage!!
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Old 12-02-2017, 04:52 AM   #29
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Truepeak just requires an oversampled limter.

44.1kHz , 48kHz --> 4x oversampling
88.2kHz , 96kHz -->. 2x oversampling

That's it. Toneboosters Barricade is cheap and very good.

Personally I use Voxengo Elephant at 4x oversampling for everything I mix for broadcast or streaming. I'd likely buy Barricade if I needed a Truepeak limiter and did not already have Elephant.
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Old 12-02-2017, 06:40 AM   #30
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This is what my garden looked like two weeks ago:

Nice Pow Wow flowers (as they call them here) - Fellow gardener here, I see Okra! I just cleaned my garden up a few weeks ago and prepped for the winter.
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