Old 10-17-2019, 08:06 PM   #241
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You guessed it. They were playing a great song with a great arrangement and great parts. Their original songs sucked. And that absolutely affects the sonics of a recording.
afarkingmen.
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Old 10-17-2019, 08:44 PM   #242
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This post has triggered so many personal stories for me.

1. I love the guitar sound Angus Young gets, but for the life of me, I can't get that sound with a U87. It sounds terrible to me. I use many different mics and still achieve the sound I want. And sometimes I'm trying to mimic the AC/DC sound. I just can't do it the way they did.
I don't really try to duplicate anyone else's sound, and just go for what sounds good to me with my gear. After many years of trying things, I've settled into using a Sennheiser MD421 on a twin twelve Gretsch speaker cabinet that is in the closet of the studio, and powered by a small Orange amp that is in the control room so I monitor and adjust it while listening through my studio monitors.

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[ ... ]

the band got bored and started playing a cover song. I believe it was "Bad Company" by the band Bad Company.

My boss and I looked at each other in amazement. Suddenly the Bass went down two octaves and the snare sounded like god. WTH just happened? You guessed it. They were playing a great song with a great arrangement and great parts. Their original songs sucked. And that absolutely affects the sonics of a recording.
Something I've noticed over the years is with lots of people's original music they'll have parts playing all the time, never letting up or taking a breath, and it crowds the soundstage so no part can be heard with much detail.

Drums being my first instrument, I try to write parts that will play off of each other and fill each other's holes. The newest thing I recorded has mandolin hard right, 12-string hard left, and they trade off through most of the song so they aren't stepping on each other's toes.
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Old 10-17-2019, 09:06 PM   #243
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I don't really try to duplicate anyone else's sound
Me either. Inevitably what goes in my ears eventually comes out in my playing/recording/mixing in some way, but it runs through my subconscious' grinder along the way hopefully.

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Something I've noticed over the years is with lots of people's original music they'll have parts playing all the time, never letting up or taking a breath, and it crowds the soundstage so no part can be heard with much detail.
When I first joined my original band in 2014, the writing and songs were good IMHO, but everyone was always playing every second of every song. Having awareness of the same things you are mentioning, as I was coming up with my parts, I'd purposely lay out in sections here and there while also trying to get the rest of the band to have the lightbulb moment.

Turns out that out of a little over and hour of music, 20 minutes of it, I wasn't playing at all. When I showed them that and asked what it would be like if I suddenly started noodling in those parts, they understood better because they had gotten used to the drop in dynamics and added space in those sections - they were often good at playing in others holes, the problem was they filled every single farking hole. Sometimes an otherwise great sounding part is better served by the mute button.

I've also noticed the weaker something I write/compose is, the more and more tracks I end up recording trying to fix it and more tracks wasn't the answer.
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Old 10-17-2019, 09:49 PM   #244
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Rests are a component of well written music and are frequently under used. Music needs contrast. If it's all brightness then all you get a wash of noise.

The sound stage fills up pretty quickly with just a couple guitars, bass and drums. After that it's easy to start stepping on toes.

A writing technique I've used before was to overplay every track intentionally, then like a sculptor, remove the bits that don't make the song.
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:34 AM   #245
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One other story. I was working at a studio many many moons ago and some young band came in and used our studio kit. It sounded terrible. Especially the hi-hats.

I turned to the studio owner and said that we really need to replace those hi-hats. They sound like trash cans.

Fast forward two weeks. Bernard Purdie comes to the studio. We're getting sounds and I turn to the studio owner and tell him that I've never heard a better set of hi hats in my life.

He was also using the studio kit.
Haha!

Damn those talented folks and their ability to destroy the illusion that we can buy our way to greatness!

...or is that bless those talented folks and their ability to destroy the illusion that we need money to be great?
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Old 10-18-2019, 02:20 AM   #246
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Hi everyone. I read the first page, sorry if anyone has posted this here already.
Regarding the automation before compression makes all very nice and smooth.
"Attacking" a digital compressor these days may have huge impact on the overall mix.

I explain my steps for better compression.

1 - i do automate volume before compressors, especially on vocals;

2- you can use this great script to make everything more natural. ( http://forum.cockos.com/member.php?u=50462);

3- sometimes i use waves vocal Ride and write its own automation to a track;

4- Analog compressors tend to have a bit more "mojo" than digital ones, but there are great ones out there, its up to everyone choosing what fits best.

to make a compressor work on a musical way, CALCULATE its attack and release times according to the music tempo. Its easily achieved by using this formula

60.000 / BPM
e.g ( 60.000/120 = 500ms)

Just apply divisions by pair numbers (if its a 4/4) tempo.

All the best
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Old 10-18-2019, 02:30 AM   #247
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2- you can you this great script to make everything more natural. ( http://forum.cockos.com/member.php?u=50462);
That just goes to the member profile. Which script do you mean?

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to make a compressor work on a musical way, CALCULATE its attack and release times according to the music tempo. Its easily achieved by using this formula

60.000 / BPM
e.g ( 60.000/120 = 500ms)

Just apply divisions by pair numbers (if its a 4/4) tempo.
Maybe that works for some people, but that formula doesn't take the attack and release times of the notes being played, which is more important than tempo when compressing, IMHO.

I don't tend to like "calculated" stuff anyway - I never use tempo sync for delay, for instance, because having it dead on the grid sounds boring to me.
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Old 10-18-2019, 02:58 AM   #248
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That just goes to the member profile. Which script do you mean?
Envelope based compressor, it´s on reapack.



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Maybe that works for some people, but that formula doesn't take the attack and release times of the notes being played, which is more important than tempo when compressing, IMHO.
Works great for me.

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I don't tend to like "calculated" stuff anyway - I never use tempo sync for delay, for instance, because having it dead on the grid sounds boring to me.
Well, dont use it.
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Old 10-18-2019, 04:22 AM   #249
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Envelope based compressor, it´s on reapack.

Thanks


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Works great for me.
You use the same attack and release settings regardless of if it's a staccato part or a legato part? Floor toms get the same attack and release settings as snare drums?
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:11 AM   #250
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You use the same attack and release settings regardless of if it's a staccato part or a legato part? Floor toms get the same attack and release settings as snare drums?
No , normally i set the attach faster then the release. Half . not always. Depends on the content! And many time i use only hears not this calculation.
Works best with tight tempo stuff, like electronics music and sample based music.
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:30 AM   #251
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No , normally i set the attach faster then the release. Half . not always. Depends on the content! And many time i use only hears not this calculation.
Works best with tight tempo stuff, like electronics music and sample based music.
Sorry, I didn't mean the same attack time as the release time, I meant the same attack and release time (whether different or not) regardless of the part you are compressing. If that makes sense?

So if you have a release time of 200 ms, and have an attack time of 30 ms, those same timings get applied to all parts?
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:57 AM   #252
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Sorry, I didn't mean the same attack time as the release time, I meant the same attack and release time (whether different or not) regardless of the part you are compressing. If that makes sense?

So if you have a release time of 200 ms, and have an attack time of 30 ms, those same timings get applied to all parts?
Sometime i automate the attack and release times for different parts of the song.
Like always, what the music "asks" and suits best.
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Old 10-18-2019, 06:36 AM   #253
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I don't tend to like "calculated" stuff anyway - I never use tempo sync for delay, for instance, because having it dead on the grid sounds boring to me.
Amen!
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Old 10-18-2019, 06:48 AM   #254
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Just sharing my methods, everyone has its own. Hope i could help some of you.
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Old 10-18-2019, 07:26 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
One other story. I was working at a studio many many moons ago and some young band came in and used our studio kit. It sounded terrible. Especially the hi-hats.

I turned to the studio owner and said that we really need to replace those hi-hats. They sound like trash cans.

Fast forward two weeks. Bernard Purdie comes to the studio. We're getting sounds and I turn to the studio owner and tell him that I've never heard a better set of hi hats in my life.

He was also using the studio kit.
Thanks for the stories, Kenny! Really entertaining.

(Also when I don't understand something in Reaper, I always head over to your YouTube channel. I've learned so much from your videos. Not just specific techniques, but the principles of Reaper itself. The philosophy of approaching a mix is as important as any one trick. Thanks again!)
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Old 10-18-2019, 08:29 AM   #256
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Just sharing my methods, everyone has its own. Hope i could help some of you.
Of course!

I wasn't saying what you are doing is wrong, just giving another point of view.
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Old 10-18-2019, 09:12 AM   #257
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It's not gaining any ground when someone uses age as part of the argument. Not trying to be argumentative and make things worse, but it's the wrong path to take. We all get what you care about concerning good music and expense, but getting that across should not come at the expense of this thread.
I think I understand what you mean.

I wish I'd never even mentioned the brand name thing in the first place, I hate when forum threads get hostile but, being human, it's hard not to reply (and can see now that my comments should have been put better).

Thankfully the thread has continued back to being sensible so hopefully that's the end of it.
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Old 10-18-2019, 11:50 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by pepe44 View Post
to make a compressor work on a musical way, CALCULATE its attack and release times according to the music tempo. Its easily achieved by using this formula

60.000 / BPM
e.g ( 60.000/120 = 500ms)

Just apply divisions by pair numbers (if its a 4/4) tempo.
There are also some compressors which allow input of BPM and "units" (1/4, 1/8, etc.) for attack and release times such as "w_comp_bpm" and "w_comp_bpm_2" in this package:

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/25168/js_plugins.zip

Just in case anyone here wants a nice compressor, for free, which does this easily.
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:06 PM   #259
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Much appreciated james
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:45 PM   #260
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There are also some compressors which allow input of BPM and "units" (1/4, 1/8, etc.) for attack and release times such as "w_comp_bpm" and "w_comp_bpm_2" in this package:

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/25168/js_plugins.zip

Just in case anyone here wants a nice compressor, for free, which does this easily.
That sounds an interesting concept.

I wonder how it would compare to a normal automatic release on a compressor (when set to the timing that the part actually is).
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Old 10-18-2019, 03:15 PM   #261
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Thanks for the stories, Kenny! Really entertaining.

(Also when I don't understand something in Reaper, I always head over to your YouTube channel. I've learned so much from your videos. Not just specific techniques, but the principles of Reaper itself. The philosophy of approaching a mix is as important as any one trick. Thanks again!)
Thank you
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