Grid Snap and TIme signatures other than 4/4

Schrodinger's Cat · 09-01-2011, 05:46 PM

The snap grid, when set to whole notes, displays incorrectly when using time signatures other than 4/4.

How to replicate, start any new project, set the time signature to any other time signature other than 4/4, such as 4/8, 5/8, 6/8, 5/4, 6/4, 7/8 etc (although 8/8, 16/16 work), set the grid snap to 1 or 1/2.

The grid lines should now happen on the ONE of each measure, but instead happen on the ONE where the ONE would be if the project was still in 4/4

The grid does not "Line Up" with the ONE in each measure until set to 1/4 Notes.

This is important...

XITE-1/4LIVE · 09-01-2011, 05:47 PM

Have you checked to see if you're on Beats or Time in the PST'ings...?

Schrodinger's Cat · 09-01-2011, 06:01 PM

I'm set at Measures.Beats/Minutes.Seconds

The display, if I set a song to 5/4 and the grid to 1, displays like this: (GL = Grid Line)

1.1.......1.2.......1.3.......1.4.......1.5....... 2.1.......2.2
GL..........................................GL.... ................

It SHOULD display like this, just like the tempo is clicking...

So my grid is like this "GL" = Grid Line

1.1.......1.2.......1.3.......1.4.......1.5....... 2.1.......2.2
GL................................................ ......GL... ....

The grid line displays every 4 beats, instead of where the ONE of the time signature should be.
For 5/4, the grid line should show up every 5 beats, the metronome knows this and clicks ONE every 5 beats, but the grid doesn't change

Tod · 09-01-2011, 06:29 PM

My tests go along with this, whether if you establish a 5/4 beat in the Time Sig or apply it via Project Settings it's not right. Actually it appears if anything beyond 4/4 is incorrect.

XITE-1/4LIVE · 09-01-2011, 06:34 PM

Media Item Properties >
Time is audio.
Beats is MIDI based...

Don't know why, but that was the way it was explained to me.
But I always write out the arrangement first with all measure counts, tempo changes and time markers.
I do cheeseball Classic Rock and 4/4 crap 6 nights a week. At home I prefer sharpening my Jaxx and Fusion skills.
Plus I get to solo over my own arrangements to keep the chops up mentally and physically.

Tod · 09-01-2011, 06:46 PM

Keep in mind this is with grid setting set to Whole notes and maybe that's the key, a whole note with 5/4 should be 5 beats long, not 4 right? Heh heh maybe not.

This is actually a Whole note issue and is a problem with anything above 4/4.

Defifinitly not a major issue but....

Schrodinger's Cat · 09-01-2011, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tod

Keep in mind this is with grid setting set to Whole notes and maybe that's the key, a whole note with 5/4 should be 5 beats long, not 4 right? Heh heh maybe not.

This is actually a Whole note issue and is a problem with anything above 4/4.

Defifinitly not a major issue but....

A whole note should take on the whole value of the measure, so if there are 5 quarter notes per measure, than the value of the whole note should be 5 beats.

It doesn't matter whether the time is audio or MIDI, the Grid should change according to the Beats per measure of the time signature, and currently if it's set to 1 or 1/2 notes it doesn't.

It only starts to match the Beats per measure once the grid is set to 1/4 notes, then the grid actually matches up.

XITE-1/4LIVE · 09-01-2011, 06:59 PM

I just discovered some wierdness, and I am rolling back to 4.0 instead of 4.2 until I can sort things out.
I am inserting a time signature of 6/8 @ 110bpm, into an area where there is already a previous time marker of the same 6/8 @ 110bpm. The reason I do this is because I need to check on the gradual tempo change that occurs from on time sig. to the next, usually only a beat or two prior to the new tempo/time sig.
No matter what I insert ( I.E. 33.5.00 ) the time marker sets itself to 34.1.00 which is where I need another time marker for the gradual tempo change to end...??

I have done this same procedure many times before, so I am rolling back to 4.0 from 4.2 until this gets sorted out.
My Main DAW for the gig is still 3.76 since it's proven for a while.

There's probably a mistake in settings somewhere I have made, so I will report back, but the improperly inserted time signatures is something I haven't experienced before, and I said on my time off I practice music in off meter time counts to keep the Chops up...

Below is the jpeg where I insert the gradual time change, etc. and it still places the time signature forward to 34.1.00..................aarrggghh.

Cheers.

Schrodinger's Cat · 09-01-2011, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XITE-1/4LIVE

Media Item Properties >
Time is audio.
Beats is MIDI based...

This has absolutely nothing to do with Audio or Midi item Properties.
This bug shows with a completely empty project.

Picture 4-4, is the grid set to ONE, with a time signature of 4/4.
Picture 5-4, is the grid set to ONE, with a time signature of 5/4
Picture 7-8, is the grid set to ONE, with a time signature of 7/8
4-4.jpg
5-4.jpg
7-8.jpg

Schrodinger's Cat · 09-01-2011, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XITE-1/4LIVE

No matter what I insert ( I.E. 33.5.00 ) the time marker sets itself to 34.1.00 which is where I need another time marker for the gradual tempo change to end...??

THere's a checkbox I ran across in Preferences (I think) that says something about snapping Tempo changes to the ONE of every measure

I'll be fucked if I can find it again though, I can rarely find ANY setting TWICE, in this program, due to half of the shit being on a contextual right click options menu, and the other half being in Preferences, so I can never remember where I ran across a certain setting.

Wow, I feel like Indiana Jones, I found the setting you're looking for!.

Click Snap/Grid----Snap/Grid Settings----Uncheck "Snap Time Signature Changes To Whole Bars"

XITE-1/4LIVE · 09-01-2011, 07:17 PM

Gotcha, sorry I got side tracked, but the grid is definately funky.
Your example explains things and I also get those results.
We all have the same wrong boxes checked off...???

Tod · 09-01-2011, 07:23 PM

To be honest I've never really stopped to think about what a whole note is. I was just assumeing that with a 5/4 measure it should be 5 beats long. But in the technical musical world, is it? Heh heh I don't know.

Schrodinger's Cat · 09-01-2011, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tod

To be honest I've never really stopped to think about what a whole note is. I was just assumeing that with a 5/4 measure it should be 5 beats long. But in the technical musical world, is it? Heh heh I don't know.

A 5/4 measure should have 5 quarter note beats.

Setting the grid to ONE, should ALWAYS make the grid show on the beginning of every measure, whether the measure is 5 quarter notes long or 7 eighths notes long

Tod · 09-01-2011, 08:15 PM

I agree with you Schrodinger's Cat, but the way Justin is talking it might not be so easy. I still think it should be concidered a bug because regardless, there's no way to get the proper 1st beat grid setting with anything beyond 4/4.

Schrodinger's Cat · 09-01-2011, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tod

I agree with you Schrodinger's Cat, but the way Justin is talking it might not be so easy. I still think it should be concidered a bug because regardless, there's no way to get the proper 1st beat grid setting with anything beyond 4/4.

OK, I updated my post in the other thread.
What I'm looking for (after trying this out in Sonar and Acid) is Measure Snap, where the cursor will snap to the First Beat of every measure, regardless of the time signature.
Sonar and Acid have this, and I think it's essential, I use it all the time, to remove any 'doubt' that I'm snapping a bunch of clips to "1" on a Measure.

Tod · 09-01-2011, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

OK, I updated my post in the other thread.
What I'm looking for (after trying this out in Sonar and Acid) is Measure Snap, where the cursor will snap to the First Beat of every measure, regardless of the time signature.
Sonar and Acid have this, and I think it's essential, I use it all the time, to remove any 'doubt' that I'm snapping a bunch of clips to "1" on a Measure.

Now that sounds reasonable, would probably make a good FR.

Schrodinger's Cat · 09-01-2011, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tod

Now that sounds reasonable, would probably make a good FR.

Vote for this feature HERE

nothings · 09-04-2011, 03:05 AM

So, I don't think you should call this a feature request, you should call it a bug.

I explained this in the feature request, but my answer got moved into a new thread in the feature request forum: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=87177

Quote:

Originally Posted by nothings

I don't think this is a feature request, I think this is a bug.

Part of the reason I think this is that the MIDI editor used to have the same problem. I reported it as a bug: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1598
The bug was never marked fixed, but they did in fact fix it, many months later (so maybe coincidentally). And it's still fixed in the midi editor: http://nothings.org/remote/reaper_timesig_grid.png

I use a lot of time signature changes in my music, so I'm pretty sure that the track view grid used to work correctly, at least in terms of *displaying* the grid (I don't know about snapping since I don't normally snap media items to measure starts since they have lead ins).

Also, early in the thread there's discussion above of an "other thread" and "the way Justin is talking", does anybody have a link?

gofer · 09-04-2011, 06:16 AM

Found it, it's here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=87162

I'm tempted to merge the three threads, but the posts would be ordered by date and it might end up very confusing. I guess I better just add links to all of them in the tracker.

Schrodinger's Cat · 09-04-2011, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gofer

Found it, it's here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=87162

I'm tempted to merge the three threads, but the posts would be ordered by date and it might end up very confusing. I guess I better just add links to all of them in the tracker.

Yea, sorry about that.... oops

ovnis · 01-09-2012, 04:22 AM

Sorry, maybe for you, it s not a problem, but for me, it s a major issue ...

ovnis · 01-13-2012, 03:54 AM

You can vote here too ...

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=347