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Old 04-17-2022, 07:15 PM   #41
illsoulprod259
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+1
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Old 07-28-2022, 08:34 AM   #42
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+1
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Old 10-05-2022, 11:47 AM   #43
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Default FX chain gain staging

I know I'm digging up an old topic but gain staging in fx chain can be a really exhausting activity. There are of course plugins to measure and correct levels but this feature seems so necessary that I guess it should just be built in. It is known that real-time measurement is non-trivial but a simple offline measurement would really be sufficient. Most of this functionality is probably even already programmed in some form. In "media item properties" we have the "normalize" function working well. Just copy it to the FX window and let the user adjust the input and output levels of the effect based on the measurement of the current track. You probably need to add an option to select what time range you are measuring (the current media item, some time range, the whole track) but that's a detail. The key is that Reaper should allow the user to set the input and output levels of each subsequent effect in the chain and make it easy to set them correctly.
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Old 10-05-2022, 12:21 PM   #44
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+1
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Old 10-05-2022, 07:11 PM   #45
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That would be awesome
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Old 10-06-2022, 06:02 AM   #46
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thumps up, it's also on my list of suggestions!
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Old 11-26-2022, 09:31 AM   #47
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+1
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Old 11-26-2022, 09:49 AM   #48
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+1, yes please!
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Old 11-26-2022, 09:40 PM   #49
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+1
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Old 11-29-2022, 04:26 AM   #50
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+1 and just wrote the same request before seeing this
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Old 11-29-2022, 05:04 AM   #51
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Yep. This would be awesome.
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Old 11-29-2022, 06:36 AM   #52
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This should be the plugins developer responsibility to add input and output gain to their plugins, especially when it can make a big difference. But unfortunately, lots of them don't, so having this natively in REAPER would be awesome.

Having to put a JS gain before and after every Devil-Loc I use is a bit of a flow killer
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Old 12-01-2022, 03:58 PM   #53
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+1 and bump
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Old 12-02-2022, 12:26 AM   #54
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This is a good idea, supported!
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Old 12-03-2022, 12:14 PM   #55
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+1 Please this is very much a need, at least the output knob.

Plugin's output knobs, when they are implemented, do not work the same every time, some are meant to add color, or do it without meaning to, so having a clean output stage after every one is a must in my book, or at least have the ability to choose when to have it.
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Old 12-05-2022, 01:29 PM   #56
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Absolutely +1
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Old 12-09-2022, 11:00 AM   #57
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15 months since the request.... and an ominous silence from the devs so far.

I`m wondering if this is just a step too far for them for some obscure reason.
Shame, s I too am one of the legion who would LOVE to be able to decide where my FX went.
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Old 12-11-2022, 04:45 AM   #58
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I can't believe this is finally happening. Thanks so much to the developers for making this a reality, any day now.
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Old 12-12-2022, 06:59 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Frown View Post
I can't believe this is finally happening. Thanks so much to the developers for making this a reality, any day now.
Wut? where?
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Old 12-12-2022, 09:22 AM   #60
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If we all just keep believing, it'll happen.
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Old 12-12-2022, 11:25 AM   #61
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+1
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Old 12-12-2022, 12:18 PM   #62
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+1 again, just because....🤣
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Old 12-12-2022, 12:47 PM   #63
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very needed everywhere +1
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Old 01-05-2023, 11:16 AM   #64
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+1
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Old 01-08-2023, 06:09 PM   #65
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Yes, please. For the simple sake of loudness-neutral comparison of FX on/off.

Super mega duper useful!
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Old 01-09-2023, 01:00 PM   #66
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I also think it is such a basic thing that every DAW should have it. Much like the dry/wet knob. But I know that most DAWs don't have the dry/wet knob.

Do the big names (PT, Logic, Cubase, Live, Bitwig, Studio One, etc.) realyl all have input/output gain for plugins? I thought they are "equally as bad" as REAPER in this regard.
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Old 01-09-2023, 01:02 PM   #67
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Old 01-12-2023, 08:51 AM   #68
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+ 100000000


And also add an option to level match the output. For example, right click on the output gain knob and show a context menu with "match level to input"


So you can then bypass the plugin to see real change without being affected by the loudness...

That would be a dream.
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Old 01-12-2023, 04:32 PM   #69
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I totally agree!
It would be very handy indeed!
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Old 01-12-2023, 05:29 PM   #70
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+1
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Old 01-12-2023, 05:50 PM   #71
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I’m into this idea, but here’s a question:

How do you want it to work for multichannel plugins? There are any number of reasons one might not want the same gain for all of them. Does this need to go in the routing pins so we can have control of in and out for each channel?
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Old 01-13-2023, 02:22 AM   #72
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Wouldn't you rather solve it through panning if you didn't want to have the same gain on all channels? I mean, would you even consider the gain knob when mixing multichannel audio?
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Old 01-13-2023, 05:08 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
How do you want it to work for multichannel plugins? There are any number of reasons one might not want the same gain for all of them. Does this need to go in the routing pins so we can have control of in and out for each channel?
Good question. My position is somewhat similar to @timothys_monster's.

I could use simple stereo knobs for in and out. What about alt (3-4) key inputs for plain stereo plugs? Or multichannel plugs? Multichan will probably provide their own controls. Uniformity of modulation/automation is a Good Thing, but I wouldn't push this too far. Special cases will need special solutions anyway.

On a separate note, automatic gain compensation (AGC) is a slippery slope IMO. Different ways to do it, lookahead and whatnot. Let's compensate by ear with our brand new knobs! (If/when we get them )
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Old 01-13-2023, 07:54 AM   #74
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Oh yes, good point. Please don't make it auto gain. I already condemn that "feature" on my otherwise beautiful Softube Console 1. Because you can't turn it off!!!
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Old 01-13-2023, 09:31 AM   #75
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Half the time you can just reverse-link the in to the out and get good enough gain compensation. The other half of the time, you’re probably trying to make something louder or quieter than it was, so compensation doesn’t super make sense and should probably be better done by ear anyway.

But see this is where feature requests get weird and why even a “simple request” like this can get held up or sort of never happen. The original idea sounds simple but only from a specific (in this case quite basic) perspective, but the devs actually have to consider all of the corner cases - cause you know they’re going to hear about it if they don’t and going back to fix it is never as easy as doing it right the first time. But then there’s feature creep where people start to pile on “simple” amendments. “Ya know, while you’re in there…”

But again, I’m not opposed to the idea and the original basic idea of I/O knobs - even if they only affect the first channel pair - could be pretty handy in a lot of situations.
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Old 01-13-2023, 11:10 AM   #76
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I’m not speaking for our beloved devs. It’s a thing in application development in general. You slap something in that you think is neat without really thinking it all the way through, and as soon as it rolls out we find ways it’s inadequate, unwanted, or otherwise kinda borked.

By “quite basic” I mean literally ignoring any other use case. If nothing else, the question “how do we handle multiple channels” needs to be addressed pretty much immediately when you get into actually doing it.

Are we treating them all the same? Are we ignoring “extra” pairs? And actually like which side of the input pins are we working with here? Is it the actual track channel or the plugin channel that determines if it gets skipped? And then once you’ve made a decision, is that actually going to be intuitive and coherent to real users?

There’s a lot in even this kind of little thing and it all really does matter. If we want it to happen, we should try to hash these things out and present something a bit more robust for them to look at.
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Old 01-13-2023, 11:25 AM   #77
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To answer my own questions, in case I get a vote.

The ideal for me is separate control at least by pairs if not just individual. The pin connector window looks something like the JS downmixer with faders for each plugin pin.
Quote:
Are we treating them all the same?
Please no.
Quote:
Are we ignoring “extra” pairs?
This is better and covers that majority use case fairly well. I’d appreciate it, even if it’s not exactly what I want all the time.
Quote:
Is it the actual track channel or the plugin channel that determines if it gets skipped?
Honestly, I think it’s pretty obvious that it has to happen on the plugin side, but it did have to be asked.
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And then once you’ve made a decision, is that actually going to be intuitive and coherent to real users?
Well we’ve got a whole thread of user collaboration where some sort of reasonable consensus was reached.
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Old 01-14-2023, 08:40 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
To answer my own questions, in case I get a vote.
You do, at least from me. Your points make a lot of sense. Something practical that will likely get a lot of use. Not perfect for all workflows, sure - but what is?
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Old 01-14-2023, 07:58 PM   #79
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+1

so elegant.
need need need!
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Old 01-16-2023, 09:53 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
I’m not speaking for our beloved devs. It’s a thing in application development in general. You slap something in that you think is neat without really thinking it all the way through, and as soon as it rolls out we find ways it’s inadequate, unwanted, or otherwise kinda borked.
It happens, but lucky for our beloved devs, they'll have this thread for reference when it comes to thinking it through. I'm sure something can be worked out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
By “quite basic” I mean literally ignoring any other use case. If nothing else, the question “how do we handle multiple channels” needs to be addressed pretty much immediately when you get into actually doing it.

Are we treating them all the same? Are we ignoring “extra” pairs?
Aside from channels beyond 1 and 2, I can't think of anything else that would need consideration. One possible way of organising it could be:

A) A simple pair of gain knobs (scaled in dB and allowing for +/- some arbitrary amount, perhaps 24 dB either side) for input and output next to the wet/dry knob on each plugin. This pair would apply to channels 1 and 2; this should be enough to have in the open as it'll serve most use cases. This answers 'are we treating all channels the same', no, in this scenario we're not.

B) A button next to this could open a submenu with input and output knobs for all channels, up to 64, as well perhaps as a pair of input and output knobs to adjust all channels in bulk. This could be useful for sidechain signals, as it would allow us to adjust the gain of an incoming signal on channels 3 and 4 (for instance) on individual plugins, which would allow for finer control. This answers 'are we ignoring extra pairs', no, in this scenario we're not, we'll have a submenu on each plugin for the other channels.

This would serve as a good starting point. Coding for this could be done pretty quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
And actually like which side of the input pins are we working with here? Is it the actual track channel or the plugin channel that determines if it gets skipped? And then once you’ve made a decision, is that actually going to be intuitive and coherent to real users?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. It would be on the plugin, surely? And the system could be explained in the REAPER manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
There’s a lot in even this kind of little thing and it all really does matter. If we want it to happen, we should try to hash these things out and present something a bit more robust for them to look at.
I've tried, but I'm sure someone with a deeper grasp of REAPER could build on what I've written, or even change it if they have a better system.
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