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04-17-2022, 07:15 PM
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#41
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 30
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+1
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07-28-2022, 08:34 AM
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#42
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 200
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+1
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10-05-2022, 11:47 AM
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#43
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2022
Posts: 4
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FX chain gain staging
I know I'm digging up an old topic but gain staging in fx chain can be a really exhausting activity. There are of course plugins to measure and correct levels but this feature seems so necessary that I guess it should just be built in. It is known that real-time measurement is non-trivial but a simple offline measurement would really be sufficient. Most of this functionality is probably even already programmed in some form. In "media item properties" we have the "normalize" function working well. Just copy it to the FX window and let the user adjust the input and output levels of the effect based on the measurement of the current track. You probably need to add an option to select what time range you are measuring (the current media item, some time range, the whole track) but that's a detail. The key is that Reaper should allow the user to set the input and output levels of each subsequent effect in the chain and make it easy to set them correctly.
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10-05-2022, 12:21 PM
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#44
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: Finland
Posts: 33
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+1
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10-05-2022, 07:11 PM
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#45
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 437
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That would be awesome
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10-06-2022, 06:02 AM
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#46
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 47
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thumps up, it's also on my list of suggestions!
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11-26-2022, 09:31 AM
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#47
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Ghana
Posts: 13
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+1
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11-26-2022, 09:49 AM
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#48
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sweden.
Posts: 1,610
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+1, yes please!
__________________
REAPER was made for you and me
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11-26-2022, 09:40 PM
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#49
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 3,210
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+1
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11-29-2022, 04:26 AM
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#50
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 30
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+1 and just wrote the same request before seeing this
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11-29-2022, 05:04 AM
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#51
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,171
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Yep. This would be awesome.
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11-29-2022, 06:36 AM
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#52
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 463
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This should be the plugins developer responsibility to add input and output gain to their plugins, especially when it can make a big difference. But unfortunately, lots of them don't, so having this natively in REAPER would be awesome.
Having to put a JS gain before and after every Devil-Loc I use is a bit of a flow killer
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12-01-2022, 03:58 PM
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#53
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Turkey
Posts: 233
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+1 and bump
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12-02-2022, 12:26 AM
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#54
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: U.K
Posts: 542
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This is a good idea, supported!
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12-03-2022, 12:14 PM
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#55
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2022
Posts: 1
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+1 Please this is very much a need, at least the output knob.
Plugin's output knobs, when they are implemented, do not work the same every time, some are meant to add color, or do it without meaning to, so having a clean output stage after every one is a must in my book, or at least have the ability to choose when to have it.
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12-05-2022, 01:29 PM
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#56
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 79
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Absolutely +1
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12-09-2022, 11:00 AM
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#57
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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15 months since the request.... and an ominous silence from the devs so far.
I`m wondering if this is just a step too far for them for some obscure reason.
Shame, s I too am one of the legion who would LOVE to be able to decide where my FX went.
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
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12-11-2022, 04:45 AM
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#58
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2022
Posts: 100
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I can't believe this is finally happening. Thanks so much to the developers for making this a reality, any day now.
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12-12-2022, 06:59 AM
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#59
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Frown
I can't believe this is finally happening. Thanks so much to the developers for making this a reality, any day now.
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Wut? where?
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12-12-2022, 09:22 AM
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#60
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2022
Posts: 100
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If we all just keep believing, it'll happen.
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12-12-2022, 11:25 AM
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#61
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Ghana
Posts: 13
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+1
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12-12-2022, 12:18 PM
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#62
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 533
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+1 again, just because....🤣
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12-12-2022, 12:47 PM
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#63
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 656
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very needed everywhere +1
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01-05-2023, 11:16 AM
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#64
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,522
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+1
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01-08-2023, 06:09 PM
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#65
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,130
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Yes, please. For the simple sake of loudness-neutral comparison of FX on/off.
Super mega duper useful!
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01-09-2023, 01:00 PM
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#66
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,130
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I also think it is such a basic thing that every DAW should have it. Much like the dry/wet knob. But I know that most DAWs don't have the dry/wet knob.
Do the big names (PT, Logic, Cubase, Live, Bitwig, Studio One, etc.) realyl all have input/output gain for plugins? I thought they are "equally as bad" as REAPER in this regard.
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01-09-2023, 01:02 PM
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#67
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Swiss Zürich
Posts: 813
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of course
+1
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01-12-2023, 08:51 AM
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#68
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 4
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+ 100000000
And also add an option to level match the output. For example, right click on the output gain knob and show a context menu with "match level to input"
So you can then bypass the plugin to see real change without being affected by the loudness...
That would be a dream.
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01-12-2023, 04:32 PM
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#69
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Brazil
Posts: 27
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I totally agree!
It would be very handy indeed!
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01-12-2023, 05:29 PM
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#70
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2022
Posts: 103
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+1
__________________
Reaper (latest)
MacOS Monterey 12.6.2
Macbook Pro 2021, M1 Max, 64GB RAM
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01-12-2023, 05:50 PM
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#71
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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I’m into this idea, but here’s a question:
How do you want it to work for multichannel plugins? There are any number of reasons one might not want the same gain for all of them. Does this need to go in the routing pins so we can have control of in and out for each channel?
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01-13-2023, 02:22 AM
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#72
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,130
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Wouldn't you rather solve it through panning if you didn't want to have the same gain on all channels? I mean, would you even consider the gain knob when mixing multichannel audio?
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01-13-2023, 05:08 AM
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#73
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
How do you want it to work for multichannel plugins? There are any number of reasons one might not want the same gain for all of them. Does this need to go in the routing pins so we can have control of in and out for each channel?
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Good question. My position is somewhat similar to @timothys_monster's.
I could use simple stereo knobs for in and out. What about alt (3-4) key inputs for plain stereo plugs? Or multichannel plugs? Multichan will probably provide their own controls. Uniformity of modulation/automation is a Good Thing, but I wouldn't push this too far. Special cases will need special solutions anyway.
On a separate note, automatic gain compensation (AGC) is a slippery slope IMO. Different ways to do it, lookahead and whatnot. Let's compensate by ear with our brand new knobs! (If/when we get them )
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01-13-2023, 07:54 AM
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#74
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,130
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Oh yes, good point. Please don't make it auto gain. I already condemn that "feature" on my otherwise beautiful Softube Console 1. Because you can't turn it off!!!
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01-13-2023, 09:31 AM
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#75
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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Half the time you can just reverse-link the in to the out and get good enough gain compensation. The other half of the time, you’re probably trying to make something louder or quieter than it was, so compensation doesn’t super make sense and should probably be better done by ear anyway.
But see this is where feature requests get weird and why even a “simple request” like this can get held up or sort of never happen. The original idea sounds simple but only from a specific (in this case quite basic) perspective, but the devs actually have to consider all of the corner cases - cause you know they’re going to hear about it if they don’t and going back to fix it is never as easy as doing it right the first time. But then there’s feature creep where people start to pile on “simple” amendments. “Ya know, while you’re in there…”
But again, I’m not opposed to the idea and the original basic idea of I/O knobs - even if they only affect the first channel pair - could be pretty handy in a lot of situations.
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01-13-2023, 11:10 AM
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#76
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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I’m not speaking for our beloved devs. It’s a thing in application development in general. You slap something in that you think is neat without really thinking it all the way through, and as soon as it rolls out we find ways it’s inadequate, unwanted, or otherwise kinda borked.
By “quite basic” I mean literally ignoring any other use case. If nothing else, the question “how do we handle multiple channels” needs to be addressed pretty much immediately when you get into actually doing it.
Are we treating them all the same? Are we ignoring “extra” pairs? And actually like which side of the input pins are we working with here? Is it the actual track channel or the plugin channel that determines if it gets skipped? And then once you’ve made a decision, is that actually going to be intuitive and coherent to real users?
There’s a lot in even this kind of little thing and it all really does matter. If we want it to happen, we should try to hash these things out and present something a bit more robust for them to look at.
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01-13-2023, 11:25 AM
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#77
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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To answer my own questions, in case I get a vote.
The ideal for me is separate control at least by pairs if not just individual. The pin connector window looks something like the JS downmixer with faders for each plugin pin.
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Are we treating them all the same?
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Please no.
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Are we ignoring “extra” pairs?
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This is better and covers that majority use case fairly well. I’d appreciate it, even if it’s not exactly what I want all the time.
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Is it the actual track channel or the plugin channel that determines if it gets skipped?
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Honestly, I think it’s pretty obvious that it has to happen on the plugin side, but it did have to be asked.
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And then once you’ve made a decision, is that actually going to be intuitive and coherent to real users?
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Well we’ve got a whole thread of user collaboration where some sort of reasonable consensus was reached.
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01-14-2023, 08:40 AM
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#78
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
To answer my own questions, in case I get a vote.
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You do, at least from me. Your points make a lot of sense. Something practical that will likely get a lot of use. Not perfect for all workflows, sure - but what is?
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01-14-2023, 07:58 PM
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#79
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Venezuela
Posts: 346
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+1
so elegant.
need need need!
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01-16-2023, 09:53 AM
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#80
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2022
Posts: 100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
I’m not speaking for our beloved devs. It’s a thing in application development in general. You slap something in that you think is neat without really thinking it all the way through, and as soon as it rolls out we find ways it’s inadequate, unwanted, or otherwise kinda borked.
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It happens, but lucky for our beloved devs, they'll have this thread for reference when it comes to thinking it through. I'm sure something can be worked out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
By “quite basic” I mean literally ignoring any other use case. If nothing else, the question “how do we handle multiple channels” needs to be addressed pretty much immediately when you get into actually doing it.
Are we treating them all the same? Are we ignoring “extra” pairs?
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Aside from channels beyond 1 and 2, I can't think of anything else that would need consideration. One possible way of organising it could be:
A) A simple pair of gain knobs (scaled in dB and allowing for +/- some arbitrary amount, perhaps 24 dB either side) for input and output next to the wet/dry knob on each plugin. This pair would apply to channels 1 and 2; this should be enough to have in the open as it'll serve most use cases. This answers 'are we treating all channels the same', no, in this scenario we're not.
B) A button next to this could open a submenu with input and output knobs for all channels, up to 64, as well perhaps as a pair of input and output knobs to adjust all channels in bulk. This could be useful for sidechain signals, as it would allow us to adjust the gain of an incoming signal on channels 3 and 4 (for instance) on individual plugins, which would allow for finer control. This answers 'are we ignoring extra pairs', no, in this scenario we're not, we'll have a submenu on each plugin for the other channels.
This would serve as a good starting point. Coding for this could be done pretty quickly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
And actually like which side of the input pins are we working with here? Is it the actual track channel or the plugin channel that determines if it gets skipped? And then once you’ve made a decision, is that actually going to be intuitive and coherent to real users?
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I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. It would be on the plugin, surely? And the system could be explained in the REAPER manual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
There’s a lot in even this kind of little thing and it all really does matter. If we want it to happen, we should try to hash these things out and present something a bit more robust for them to look at.
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I've tried, but I'm sure someone with a deeper grasp of REAPER could build on what I've written, or even change it if they have a better system.
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