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Old 10-27-2020, 01:31 AM   #1
gvdv
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Default MIDI Recording with Virtual Keyboard, But Not with Drum Plug In?

Hi,
I put the Virtual Keyboard on a track, and was successfully able to record MIDI, through/via the MT Powerkit 2 Drum VST plug in.

I was surprised that I could not record on the MIDI track when I either (a) used the mouse or my finger to 'play' the drums on my computer screen, and when (b) I got MTPK 2 to play some preset grooves.

Even after closing the Virtual Keyboard and de-selecting it, I could not get the kit to record in either of the ways I describe above.

What am I not doing?

Thanks for any help you can provide.
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Old 10-27-2020, 04:22 AM   #2
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Are you certain that the plug-in generates MIDI notes? Put a MIDI Logger after it on the track to check.

If it does, set the track to Record the Output MIDI (right-click the RecArm button for the menu choices).
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Old 10-27-2020, 04:05 PM   #3
gvdv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Are you certain that the plug-in generates MIDI notes? Put a MIDI Logger after it on the track to check.

If it does, set the track to Record the Output MIDI (right-click the RecArm button for the menu choices).
Many thanks for your reply and suggestion, DarkStar.

Yes, 100% certain that I am generating MIDI notes: I can see, hear and edit them with about 4 VSTs I have experimented with so far.

As further proof of that, if I turn off or remove the VST instrument, the MIDI notes will no longer generate a sound (which is correct, of course).

I have also generated 'recorded' MIDI from my digital piano keyboard.

Finally, I have rendered all of these 'experiment' tracks (digital piano, drums, and several other keyboard VSTs) to audio.

So, no doubt that these are MIDI notes.

Please see the link below to a screenshot which includes the settings I am using, the VST (in this case MTPowerKit 2 drums), and the notes in the MIDI Item/lane.

Question 1:
Are you asking whether I am sure I am recording MIDI because when recording MIDI I should be able to input MIDI notes with this setup via my laptop keyboard, AND I should also be able to record MIDI notes by using the mouse or my fingers to tap the drum pads onscreen (as is my objective in asking about this)?

I am asking because I want to check that these three methods of input should all be possible.

Question 2:
Is the 'Record Output' option you suggest (by right-clicking the red Rec/Arm button) the same 'Record Output' option I get in the list of choices I get in the (second of two) drop down boxes when I right-click the 'In' button?

I have circled this button in red in the screenshot which you can access from the link below.

Question 3:
As I mentioned above, when I right-click the 'In' button I get two drop down lists, so I am presuming that the option I should choose would be 'Record Output (MIDI)' which is in the second list (accessed by clicking 'Record Output' - 'Record Output (MIDI)'?

Is this correct?

Thanks for your help with this.

https://imgpile.com/i/uAPeVa
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Last edited by gvdv; 10-27-2020 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 10-27-2020, 04:37 PM   #4
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Experimenting: if I right-click on the red RecArm button, and change the setting to 'Record Output (MIDI)' I cannot record successfully using any method.

If I change the setting to 'Record Output (MONO)', I am able to record audio (i.e., an analogue waveform), and I am able to do it by using Reaper's Virtual Keyboard, AS WELL AS by tapping on the onscreen drum pads on the MTPower drumkit VST.

It is weird that I can use these two methods of input when in analogue recording mode, but not when recording MIDI (presuming that I should be able to input MIDI notes by tapping or clicking on MTPower drumkit's drum pads when the input is set to 'Input MIDI - Virtual MIDI Keyboard).

One thing to note is that the recording level using 'Record Output (MONO)' is lower than when using 'Record Output (MIDI)'.
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Old 10-28-2020, 05:06 AM   #5
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Sorry, but I couldn't see the answer to my question, so I'll rephrase it:
"Does the MT Powerkit 2 Drum VST plug in output MIDI when you click its GUI?"

A!: Not quite. To record MIDI from your laptop keyboard or the Reaper virtual MIDI keyboard ("VMK"), you need to select "virtual MIDI keyboard" as the MIDI input Device. To record MIDI output from a plug-in (e.g. by tapping the drum pads onscreen), the MIDI input is not relevant; you select Record MIDI (Output) from the menu. Hence my question above.

A2: Yes. Right-clicking the RecArm button gives access to effectively multiple menus, so i tend to use that approach.

A3: Yes, that's correct (but I do not use the default theme).

---------------------------
"Record Output (MIDI)'" will record any MIDI available at the end of the FX chain. The default for a VST plug-in is that it does not pass on any received MIDI, so its MIDI output would only be any MIDI that it generates. You can change that by right-clicking the [2/16 out] button to the top-right of the GUI.

'Record Output (MONO)' will record the audio created by the plug-in, no matter whether you trigger the plug-in using Reaper's VMK or tap the drums within the plug-in GUI.

Quote:
presuming that I should be able to input MIDI notes by tapping or clicking on MTPower drumkit's drum pads when the input is set to 'Input MIDI - Virtual MIDI Keyboard).
-- as above, we need to ascertain if the plug-in generates MIDI (as well as audio) when you click it.
-- if the input is set to "'Input MIDI - Virtual MIDI Keyboard" then you could set the track to "Record input (audio or MIDI).

----------------------
Perhaps a MT Powerkit user can help more, as I have never used that plug-in.
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Old 10-28-2020, 12:09 PM   #6
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Hi DarkStar.
Thanks for the continued help.

Sorry, I thought I had answered your question very clearly.

But maybe I am still not understanding what you mean.

Thanks for answering my questions.

One thing I should emphasize (and maybe this was not clear in my original post) is that I am experiencing not being able to record MIDI (unless I used Reaper's VMK) from all of the virtual instruments I have tried, not just the drum plug in. And, in addition to being able to record MIDI from the VMK, I can successfully record MIDI using my Roland digital keyboard (which has a MIDI controller in it).

Just to make it clear to me what I should be doing to test things as you suggest, would you mind just giving me a numbered list of what I should try (including the settings)? I am getting a bit confused trying to extrapolate from the messages.

I also have a question: if these virtual instruments deal in MIDI (i.e., data) only, why (as we have established) will these VSTs create audio when choosing 'Record Output (MONO)'? Does Reaper convert data into audio?

I also saw an answer to someone else's post on another site that sounded like the OP was having a similar problem, and one of the suggestions was to try
Prefs > Audio > Midi Devices > right-click device > 'enable input for control messages'

Would that have anything to do with all of this?

Thanks.
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Old 10-29-2020, 05:19 AM   #7
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TLDR: I do not think that the MT Powerkit 2 Drum VST generates any MIDI when its drum pads are clicked. If so, there is no MIDI to record. You will need to record the MIDI from your Roland or from Reaper's VMK.
----------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvdv View Post
One thing I should emphasize (and maybe this was not clear in my original post) is that I am experiencing not being able to record MIDI (unless I used Reaper's VMK) from all of the virtual instruments I have tried, not just the drum plug in.
Understood. To find out if the plug-in generates MIDI:
-- create a new track.
-- add the plug-in and the JS FX "midi_logger" to the track, in that order
-- click the plug-in's GUI (on drum pads etc)
Do you see any MIDI notes in the Logger
If not then the plug-in does NOT generate any MIDI.

Here is one that does (son't worry that it sends two Note Offs for each hit, that is by design)


Quote:
Originally Posted by gvdv View Post
And, in addition to being able to record MIDI from the VMK, I can successfully record MIDI using my Roland digital keyboard (which has a MIDI controller in it).
OK, but they are Inputs to the track. That is different from any MIDI generated by a plug-in, which is seen as an Output from the track. Hence the two different menus choices for recording the MIDI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvdv View Post
Just to make it clear to me what I should be doing to test things as you suggest, would you mind just giving me a numbered list of what I should try (including the settings)? I am getting a bit confused trying to extrapolate from the messages.
I'll do my best. see above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvdv View Post
I also have a question: if these virtual instruments deal in MIDI (i.e., data) only, why (as we have established) will these VSTs create audio when choosing 'Record Output (MONO)'? Does Reaper convert data into audio?
NO, it is the virtual instruments which convert MIDI data into audio.

Let's take the cases of playing the virtual instrument with your Roland keyboard. You have selected its MIDI as the Input to the track. So, the only input that can be recorded is the MIDI from the keyboard.

Now, that virtual instrument will convert the MIDI data into audio (and it may or may not output MIDI. So, if you switch to "Record Output (mono)" or "Record Output (stereo)" you can record the audio created by the plug-in. And, if you switch to "Record Output (MIDI)" you can record any MIDI created by the plug-in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvdv View Post
I also saw an answer to someone else's post on another site that sounded like the OP was having a similar problem, and one of the suggestions was to try Prefs > Audio > Midi Devices > right-click device > 'enable input for control messages'

Would that have anything to do with all of this?
That option is used when you wish to use the MIDI Device to send control messages to automate things in Reaper. That is not relevant here.
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Old 10-29-2020, 05:59 PM   #8
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Thanks very much, DarkStar.

Will try the Logger test and get back to you.

Thanks for the info. that the MT Power Drumkit 2 probably does not export MIDI.

That makes a lot of sense - I had just assumed that all VSTs exported MIDI / were MIDI 'instruments'; I had never even considered using them to record audio.

Hop Pole studios has a video about setting up MTPDK 2 for Reaper, and I will go through that to see if he is just recording audio at the end of that process.

Will reply more fully to your message tomorrow.

Thanks again.
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Old 11-02-2020, 07:45 PM   #9
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Hi DarkStar,
Finally managed to get around to trying the test you specified, creating a track, and adding the MT Power Drumkit VST and JS MIDI Logger to the track, in that order, and playing the MT Drumkit VST's drum pads.

As you guessed, no MIDI notes are present in the JS MIDI Logger when I do this (but of course the VMK will trigger the VST to produce MIDI).

I did discover that the grooves which are part of MTPD 2 can be dragged onto the track, and that they appear as a MIDI piano roll, so I suppose that my option there is to edit.
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Old 11-03-2020, 06:53 AM   #10
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Good oh!

And you've learned a lot about Reaper too during your investigations.
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Old 11-03-2020, 10:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Good oh!

And you've learned a lot about Reaper too during your investigations.
Agreed.

Thank you very much for your help
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