Old 11-30-2020, 01:28 PM   #1
Edgemeal
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Default v6.17+dev1130 - November 30 2020

v6.17+dev1130 - November 30 2020
* Includes branch: 2nd pass render
* Includes feature branch: per-chain PDC mode and overhaul/optimization
* Includes feature branch: razor editing
+ API: add GetMediaFileMetadata
+ Actions: add actions to render stems on 2nd pass
+ Media explorer: Support temporary marks for files, to track what has been previewed or other uses
+ ReaScript: improve documentation for GetAppVersion and GetOS
+ Render: add support for 2nd pass render
+ VST: avoid scanning recursive symlinks
+ VST: fix stale terminate scanning plug-in windows on macOS
+ VST: show cancelable scanning UI when scan at startup takes a while
+ VST: show paths when scanning plug-ins
+ Wave decoder: improve behavior of previews going to multichannel tracks [p=2370348]
+ Wavpack decoder: improve behavior of previews going to multichannel tracks [p=2370348]
# Media explorer: fix context menu UI feedback
# Elastique: update linux build to 3.3.3

Full changelog / Latest pre-releases
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Old 11-30-2020, 01:49 PM   #2
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2nd pass render...?

Aha! This: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=180915
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Old 11-30-2020, 02:36 PM   #3
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Dev, you rock!
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Old 11-30-2020, 02:44 PM   #4
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Default Media Explorer File extension - Can't hide

I have not been able to hide the file extensions of files within Media Explorer. I've unchecked "File extension even when file type displayed"

I must be missing a check box somewhere.

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Old 11-30-2020, 02:47 PM   #5
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I have not been able to hide the file extensions of files within Media Explorer. I've unchecked "File extension even when file type displayed"
By default the file extension is only displayed when the user hides the file type column, because it's redundant information otherwise. That option forces the file extension to be displayed always. There is no option to hide the file extension always.
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Old 11-30-2020, 02:51 PM   #6
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+ Render: add support for 2nd pass render


what what what!

Amazing, going to try it now!

This is a massive massive game change for saving time!

Thanks!
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Old 11-30-2020, 02:58 PM   #7
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Der. Cooooolll that thing of second render der der
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Old 11-30-2020, 03:04 PM   #8
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+ Media explorer: Support temporary marks for files, to track what has been previewed or other uses

This is super useful thanks!

One super small bug with it is that it's "centred" so you can't make the column super small as the "dot" disappears.

If there's a way to have the column super small but have it so the dot then goes to the left of the box that would be great. Not a major deal if not though
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Old 11-30-2020, 03:18 PM   #9
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Interesting !

Will there be a SetMediaFileMetadata ? :P
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Old 11-30-2020, 03:42 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
v6.17+dev1130 - November 30 2020
+ Actions: add actions to render stems on 2nd pass
+ Media explorer: Support temporary marks for files, to track what has been previewed or other uses
+ VST: avoid scanning recursive symlinks
+ VST: show cancelable scanning UI when scan at startup takes a while
+ VST: show paths when scanning plug-ins
These are my very personal picks here; but I guess each user has different pet features.

AwSOME job, devs. Thanks!!

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Old 11-30-2020, 03:48 PM   #11
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2nd pass rendering tests!

So far it's working great for classic issues like reverb tails not being at the start of a file so thanks a lot for this! It's a big one!

I've not had as much luck yet though with effects that add add phase shift to the sound (Like Min phase EQ or oversampling filters do).

This would be great to solve or find a solution for as without this, adding Eq/compression/limiting to any loop (especially if it's already looped and you want to add effects to it) can't be done without a click at the loop and this was my main reason for asking for 2nd pass to be honest

The bizarre thing is that if take ReaEq and add a steep high shelve to a sustained looped sound and then 2nd pass render. You will hear a click at the loop point.

BUT.. If you take that loop, add a copy of it before and after it, glue all 3 together, apply the EQ into a take and then just render out the middle original area. It loops fine.

The phase shift caused by Eq should be sorted out by a 2nd pass render but for some reason it's not. I think it's either a bug or because there's not audio either side of the loop where the phase shift overhangs.

I'm going to explain it better in an image soon once I work out how to.

Still amazing though so far!
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Old 11-30-2020, 03:50 PM   #12
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-A small additional thing I also noticed whilst doing the tests was that we have a issue at the moment whereby if you have just previewed a file in media explorer (and it's peak file is still showing) then you are not allowed to overwrite that file (via rendering) until you select another file in the media explorer as it's locked from being overwritten.

In game sound, I find I'm often overwriting sounds I've just played in media explorer.

Would it be possible to make it so starting a render first deselects (offlines) the last file it played in media explorer so that it can be overwritten easily? Thanks!
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Old 11-30-2020, 03:56 PM   #13
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Ah.. I did a better explanation of the phase shift issue in the below quote from the original feature request thread

We kind of need a sneaky way of taking a few milliseconds of sound past the original render area and playing that back just before we start rendering so that the holes left by phase shifts get filled in the actual render.

I can't quite work out why 2nd pass rendering doesn't actually do this as it is though??

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post

For instance, if you want to process a sound you have that already loops well by say, adding eq to it and then simply render it out again.

Well.. If you try this you'll get a "click"/glitch at the start/end of the loop. (try it)

The reason for this is that a lot of effects "slant" the frequency response over time. For instance a low shelf eq will progressively make the low frequencies out of time with the higher frequencies. (look at the phase graph in reaEq to see what I mean.

Now, when you try to reloop this, unless it's the second pass you render, the end and start will have gaps in the frequency range that get chopped off.

Hard to explain fully but the below kind of does

/----/ ends look like this frequency wise.

And we are going to chop them straight like this |----|

And what you actually need is the delayed high at the end that is chopped off to be put at the start of the loop to make it whole again.

Without diagrams hard to explain but this is a massive pain for game audio and 2nd pass fixes it.
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Old 11-30-2020, 04:02 PM   #14
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Default 2nd pass rendering actions

I noticed you've added actions for 2nd pass stem rendering Thanks!

Could we have 2nd pass actions for "apply track fx to item take" and for "render item to new take" please too!

They don't have to appear in the menu but for the times when needed it will save a lot of time.

They are the ones mostly used by a lot people I think. I'm constantly rendering down to item fx into an item take for instance.

Thanks
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Old 11-30-2020, 04:10 PM   #15
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Awful job, devs. Thanks!!
You're... welcome?
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Old 11-30-2020, 04:20 PM   #16
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2nd pass render: just wanted to put on the radar again the idea of "Nth pass" instead of hard-coded 2nd pass, since sometimes the reverb tail could be longer than twice the loop length. More here. I don't know how many people would use that, but it seems like it could be important in some cases. The example case is a 2-second single-strike-of-a-hammer-on-an-anvil sound effect with a ten-second reverb tail.
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Old 11-30-2020, 04:40 PM   #17
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2nd pass render: just wanted to put on the radar again the idea of "Nth pass" instead of hard-coded 2nd pass, since sometimes the reverb tail could be longer than twice the loop length. More here. I don't know how many people would use that, but it seems like it could be important in some cases. The example case is a 2-second single-strike-of-a-hammer-on-an-anvil sound effect with a ten-second reverb tail.
If I understand you right (which I might not so would need a diagram) then 2nd pass render wouldn't help with this anyway.

The main aim of 2nd pass is to make sure that any effects "within" the loop area are fully active when the render of that loop actually happens.

No matter how many loops, it will only ever give you an accurate render of how it sounded "live" whilst you were just playing it back in reaper whilst it was looping.

I know you mean if you have a 10 second reverb it might take time to build up but I'm not sure in practice if it would make a big difference.

Reaper is all about options though so see what the devs think
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Old 11-30-2020, 04:49 PM   #18
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Default 2nd pass rendering "the phase conundrum" ;)

Here's a super simple/crude drawing that shows kind of what I mean.



The blue represents the audio after it's frequencies are "slanted" by anything that causes phase shift (a delay in certain frequencies). The black area what is rendered.

You can see that when this is rendered. There will be a gap in the high frequencies at the start of the file and a gap in low frequencies at the end.

Now.. When you add a copy of this same bit of audio both before and after it. Those gaps get filled in BUT, for some reason, 2nd pass rendering doesn't emulate this which I assumed it would

The only way I've found to not make this click when looped is to:

-Make a region around the original looped item
-Copy the looped item again, either side of the original loop item
-glue all 3 items together
-apply the track fx to the new item
-render out the region (which is just the original middle looped item area)

Quite a lot of steps to do there to make a clean loop when all I wanted to do was say take out some bottom end in a looped file

Any ideas devs how to tweak 2nd pass rendering so that it does a smooth loop? Or an additional version of it that does?

It would make a massive difference to a lot of people if you can work it out!

Disclaimer: Yes, that's a super simplified explanation of phase shift but hopefully you get the point



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Old 11-30-2020, 04:58 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
If I understand you right (which I might not so would need a diagram) then 2nd pass render wouldn't help with this anyway.

The main aim of 2nd pass is to make sure that any effects "within" the loop area are fully active when the render of that loop actually happens.
As I understand it (correct me if I'm confused here), another bonus of 2nd (or Nth) pass rendering is to allow reverb tails to loop properly within short loops.

If I have a 3-second loop, and am using a reverb with a 4-second delay, then I normally have to render the length of two loops and edit it down to the latter loop after the fact. Or use 2nd pass and just render it once. That works fine as long as the reverb length is less than twice the loop length. If the reverb (which, keep in mind, might not just be an ambient hall but might have distinct echoes, etc) is 12 seconds long, or if the loop is very short, I have to stack a bunch of loops up, render a long clip, then edit it down, and I'm proposing that Nth pass would let me avoid the hassle in the same way.

Seems like short percussive sound loops in large ambient spaces is kind of a frequent thing that comes up in games, etc, but I can't speak to that. And it seems like once 2nd pass is implemented Nth pass isn't too hard, but I'm not the developer so I'll shut up about that. :-)
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Old 11-30-2020, 05:02 PM   #20
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Good point. I've got nothing against having it as an option.

I tend to not use reverbs like that or I render them down to an item first but that's probably due to not having 2nd pass rendering before! lol

Maybe the devs will add it.
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Old 11-30-2020, 05:47 PM   #21
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You're... welcome?
Oooops. My bad...
Fixed!
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Old 11-30-2020, 05:58 PM   #22
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Default DOH!

I just thought a bit more on why 2nd pass rendering doesn't actually fix the phase gap issue above..

It's basically because unlike reverb.. nothing is actually overhanging no matter how many passes it does.. Doh!

My bad!


So.. to make this work it would need a render mode whereby the tiny bit of overhang after the render area is placed and mixed in with the very start of the render and then the bit just before the render is placed (and mixed in) right at the very end of the render.

That way there's no clicks due to gaps... all gaps filled!


I know this seems like a lot of work but this render mode would save a lot of time for people that work with loops a lot.

It also means we can liberally use effects in the process of making the sounds knowing that when rendering, the glitches won't be there and we will have a clean loop.

This would save so much time and effort.. please consider it guys!
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Old 11-30-2020, 06:20 PM   #23
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* Includes branch: 2nd pass render

Oh this is so nice! I've had my own complicated system for seamless loops to make multiple repeats of the section that I want to render then crossfade and select the render area etc...

Now I don't need to anymore

Thanks!
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Old 11-30-2020, 06:57 PM   #24
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There is a coding issue in Media Explorer's search column. When you type in something that is non-English, they will be changed to some wrong words and saved to the search history. Although that doesn't affect the search result, it would be better if they displayed correctly.
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Old 11-30-2020, 08:06 PM   #25
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There is a coding issue in Media Explorer's search column. When you type in something that is non-English, they will be changed to some wrong words and saved to the search history. Although that doesn't affect the search result, it would be better if they displayed correctly.
Thanks, fixing!
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Old 11-30-2020, 09:02 PM   #26
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By default the file extension is only displayed when the user hides the file type column, because it's redundant information otherwise. That option forces the file extension to be displayed always. There is no option to hide the file extension always.
Thanks for the tip Schwa. That worked.

Is there any possibility of editing the folder and file icons?

It would be great if I could resize/ change the icons so they matched my theme making them easier on the eyes.
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Old 12-01-2020, 02:50 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
v6.17+dev1130 - November 30 2020
* Includes branch: 2nd pass render
This is an unexpected gamechanger! Thanks so much, just tested and works perfectly so far!

I know I have proposed this several times, but at the expense of sounding repetitive, would it now be the right moment to also add a normalize option to the render dialog? That would be a huge timesaver for game sounddesign, along with this 2nd pass render option. Pleeease do it
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Old 12-01-2020, 02:57 AM   #28
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could ME stretch be applied when dragging/importing to project a sample to sampler (rs5000 or plugins)?

because if we are previewing a file with correct tempo, we want to use it with this tempo on the plugin (does not make sense otherwise in my use case tho - so maybe option for other users).

Also, seems like the tempo that ME assumes is the first tempo marker (if exists) or global tempo, so would be very useful if this tempo is relative to cursor position current tempo or by the position where the sample is dropped.

i know you have manny things to do ! maybe you can keep that in mind! hugs and thank you!
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Old 12-01-2020, 03:13 AM   #29
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I noticed you've added actions for 2nd pass stem rendering Thanks!

Could we have 2nd pass actions for "apply track fx to item take" and for "render item to new take" please too!
This would be really great indeed... And maybe also to "Render selected area of tracks" with 2ndpassRender would be nice...

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Old 12-01-2020, 03:19 AM   #30
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^ yes yes to everything ! go slowly !
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Old 12-01-2020, 06:00 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by srdmusic View Post
It would be great if I could resize/ change the icons so they matched my theme making them easier on the eyes.
Making everything in the media explorer themable would really put the raisin in the sausage. 👌🏻

This update is pretty huge!
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Old 12-01-2020, 06:03 AM   #32
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This would be really great indeed... And maybe also to "Render selected area of tracks" with 2ndpassRender would be nice...
There are 2nd pass render versions of all of the "render selected area of tracks" actions.
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Old 12-01-2020, 06:21 AM   #33
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Default Render regions bug!

Hello, i found a bug when rendering regions in this version. Reaper is no longer respecting the region bounds when 2nd pass render is OFF. See attached pictures.
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File Type: png 2.PNG (29.0 KB, 39 views)
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Old 12-01-2020, 06:46 AM   #34
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Making everything in the media explorer themable would really put the raisin in the sausage. 👌🏻
Yeah that would be super amazing whilst the media explorer is still being improved. Then hopefully the devs can look at helping us mix better and easier by adding post fader FX insert options (or just making the fader a default plugin on every channel which you can reorder in your inserts)🙏
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Old 12-01-2020, 07:20 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
+ Media explorer: Support temporary marks for files, to track what has been previewed or other uses
for "other uses," these temporary markers are utterly appropriate.

however, in the case of "tracking what's been previewed," i would guess that a user wouldn't want the marks to be temporary. if a user is previewing drum samples from a new bank, then quits REAPER and resumes later where they left off, they'd likely want to see where to pick back up.

tracking what has been previewed might be better served by its own unique column/mark, like "favorites," that auto-populates upon preview and persists between sessions. EDIT: a "peaks" column displaying whether peaks have been built or not might do nicely for this, though it does butt up against a potential "build peaks ahead of time" FR

meanwhile, for same-session sample digging, this is a nice way to mark my place. previously, i'd been kludgingly using the "favorites" mark for this. thanks!
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Old 12-01-2020, 07:44 AM   #36
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+ API: add GetMediaFileMetadata
Tested (with a few mp3/ID3 tags), seems to work so far, thanks.
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Old 12-01-2020, 08:15 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by mlprod View Post
Hello, i found a bug when rendering regions in this version. Reaper is no longer respecting the region bounds when 2nd pass render is OFF. See attached pictures.
Fixing, thanks. The render can miss the bounds when doing a 2nd pass render, too, depending on the particular block size and loop length.
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Old 12-01-2020, 09:12 AM   #38
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+ Media explorer: Support temporary marks for files, to track what has been previewed or other uses


What exactly is this ? can someone pls explain ?
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Old 12-01-2020, 09:48 AM   #39
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Yeah.. It knight be better if the marks don't reset when quitting but instead have a right click option to reset them.

svijayrathinam

There's a new column in the media explorer that leaves a little "blob" indicator in it after a sound is played.

Can be used to keep track of what sounds you've already previewed.

I out mine far left and shrunk as small as it will go. Very useful for sound design!
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Old 12-01-2020, 11:33 AM   #40
Meo-Ada Mespotine
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Docs are missing &2048 for second-pass-rending-checkbox for RENDER_SETTINGS.

In the Render to File-dialog, the string for 2nd pass render seems to be too long, as it crosses boundary-lines of the "options"-area.


Quote:
API: add GetMediaFileMetadata
Nice. that'll be very helpful
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