Old 03-24-2007, 03:34 PM   #1
NoWo
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Default Old VST problems also in Reaper -:(

Hi,

today I realized an old problem that I already know from SX3/Nuendo:

I inserted a plug (eq) into the master chain, but I bypassed it within the FX page. Then I closed it. After some time I forgot that I bypassed it within the FX page so I tried to bypass the master FX on the mixer. The sound changed!!! I opened the FX page again to do some tweaking and was shocked to see the plug already bypassed. I repeated this test a few times, bypassing and activating an already bypassed vst plug and the sound changed every time.

THIS IS NOT GOOD.

Think it to the end and we are working with an endless floating system. I could add to this a lot of other problems but I would like to hear some comments from Justin how this can be possible. Please donīt mention nulling tests, because rendering might do it right. I am speaking of realtime sound because we are making our tweaking on realtime impressions.

Before I know it better by given new informations I think this problem is vst immanent.

NoWo
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Old 03-24-2007, 03:39 PM   #2
Dstruct
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no problems here
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Old 03-24-2007, 06:46 PM   #3
Billoon
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Doesnt happen here either...

I put a few VSTs in the master, disabled them all, then toggled the Master FX bypass....totally zero difference during playback.

What plugin are you using?
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:32 AM   #4
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AFAIK it was a 3 or 4 band eq from the Jesusonic bundle, I am not in the studio.

NoWo

P.S.: Please let me add that this is not a Reaper problem, it is typical for a lot of DAW softwares working with vst, if not all.
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Old 03-25-2007, 05:56 AM   #5
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If you post a repro, eg. a zip of a project file with a plug loaded on the master thats causing the problem, ill check it out.

Heres a good example of a repro that got fixed quickly(under 24 hours!).

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7488

Last edited by Billoon; 03-25-2007 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 03-25-2007, 02:42 PM   #6
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Hi Billon,

thanks for answering. But it is not a problem of the project or the bypassed plug. It is a general problem that I know from SX3 already.
I always had the feeling that something is completely wrong with vst (or whatever else within the DAW thing). One day I did the following test within SX3:
I had project with some tracks and a cpu load of 70%.
Then I inserted an EMPTY new track into the arrangement and inserted a plug into it, I choose one with a heavy cpu load of 12 % to demonstrate the expected effect more drastically.
Then I played the arrangement and from time to time I bypassed the plug within the EMPTY track. The sound changed every time!!!
I repeated this at the computers of other studio friends on their computers and they were shocked. I am still considering of giving up the whole DAW thing because the consequence of this is that every time you insert a plug or change the cpu load all that have been treated and tweaked earlier does change, you simply donīt realize it.
As I said this might be compensated by rendering, but this does not help during working. The mentioned problem within Reaper now aims into the same direction.
Hi Dandruff, if you have no problem at your place, I only can assume that your monitoring isnīt good enough or something else is different, I donīt know.

As I already mentioned on starting the thread there is even more:
It is very diffult to find a good wave player within the computer, sounds bizzare but it is so. Forget Wavelab. At this moment the only wave player I can recommend is the playlist of the burning software Feurio, second best is Windowsī own Media Player. All others donīt tell you the truth about dynamics (and the overall sound).
I only mention this because Reaper too doesnīt play the dynamics right. I hoped it could, but it doesnīt. It is just more pleasing to the ear.
You doubt?
That doesnīt surprise me. Insert some tracks into an existing music arrangement of your choice, put in some HOT international reference tracks into the new inserted tracks and try to match their sound and dynamics. If you are done render your stuff.
Now try to compare your own music with the former used international tracks within Windows Media Player, or much better, within Feurio and you will see that now you are quieter or louder than the international tracks within the arrangement.
I have done this test in a lot of multitrackers, also in PT-M, they all suck. The only one that came pretty close was Sonar with a special pan-law setting for rendering (and playback), but unfortunarely Sonar did not recognize all my plugs so I had to search for something else and now I am here. Maybe I have to switch back to Sonar out of this reason because for mastering I have to believe to what I hear 100%, no excuses are allowed.

Bad news, I hate me for that, but unfortunately the truth.

Nowo
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Old 03-25-2007, 10:06 PM   #7
Billoon
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If you cant provide a repro, it cant be fixed. Every bug that can be reproduced can be fixed, i believe.

If there is a bug in REAPER that isnt in Sonar, im sure CockOS would be happy to fix it, but ATM youre the only one who has noticed it.

In your first post you said...

Quote:
I inserted a plug (eq) into the master chain, but I bypassed it within the FX page. Then I closed it. After some time I forgot that I bypassed it within the FX page so I tried to bypass the master FX on the mixer. The sound changed!!! I opened the FX page again to do some tweaking and was shocked to see the plug already bypassed. I repeated this test a few times, bypassing and activating an already bypassed vst plug and the sound changed every time.
Now that definately sounds like a bug to me but i cant repro it, so please help us out here...we need a repro.
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Old 03-25-2007, 11:47 PM   #8
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Hi Billoon,

The second problem I mentioned in my last post is more important because I can get rid of a plug but I canīt change the dynamic behaviour.
AFAIR Sonar does have various pan modes aside to the pan-laws, and one of this did the trick. I will have to look what it was and then come back, okay?

NoWo
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:10 AM   #9
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Cool, looking forward to hearing what you come up with.
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:33 PM   #10
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Hi Billoon,

had to install my Sonar 6 for this.

So hear are the audio options of Sonar. Unfortunately we have the language barrier against us because I have a German version of course and I do not have all English words for it.

Audio-Options:
First page:

1. Option: 0dB Mitte (Mid), Sin/Cos Verjüngung, Konstanten-Potenz
2. Option: -3dB Mitte, Sin/Cos Kurve (curve), Dauerleistung
3. Option: 0dB Mitte, Quadratwurzel-Kurve, Dauerleistung
4. Option: -3dB Mitte, Quadratwurzelkurve, Dauerleistung
5. Option: -6dB Mitte, Lineare Kurve
6. Option: 0dB Mitte, Balance Control

So far for the pan options of the first page. Now to the second.
Second page (Extended):

Dithering:

Square
Triangle
Powr-1
Powr-2
Powr-3

A mix of the fourth option together with a powr-2 dithering using the 64-bit engine gives me the best impression of loudness (real high SPLs) and all other relations important during mastering. It is not perfect, but I have not found any better up to now. It is okay, about 85-90 per cent close to perfection.

Try it yourself, they have a demo.
At the moment Reaper canīt stand up against it soundwise, but perhaps this will change -

Hope this helps

NoWo
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Old 03-26-2007, 08:07 PM   #11
Billoon
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We've recently had a listening test that compared mixes done in Sonar and REAPER...noone could pick which one was done by which program(some guessed)...so i have to disagree with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoWo View Post
At the moment Reaper canīt stand up against it soundwise...

Now your original post was about something completely different(bypassed FX changing sound)...noone else has noticed this and you cant or wont provide a repro or name the plugin causing the problem...so until you do, nothing can be done about it.
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Old 03-27-2007, 02:31 PM   #12
NoWo
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Hi Billoon,

it is simple impossible to send you a zip file, it is a big project. Anyway, I was only searching for an explanation of this "loaded but bypassed" plugin phenomenon. When others donīt hear it, what can I do? BTW I was informed about this by another guy with a long experience and critical ears. There is always running a lot by PM behind the scenes (not here, on other forums like Brad Blackwoodīs for mastering), and I got a lot of PMs about this and similar phenomenons, but these guys would never dare to say this in public or keep this as a production secret for themselves.

To the sound problem:
I like the sound of Reaper and will continue to work with it, but this does not mean that others donīt have interesting things to offer that go a little further and quite often could do a job better. But I like the style, the easyness and the spirit of Reaper so I decided against Sonar again. Perhaps someone could do something for dithering (I know the problems of licensing Powr) and for burning complete CDs, not only rendered single tracks, to get rid of this horrible sounding Wavelab.

NoWo
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