Master track numbered '1' in 6.50+ (FIXED)

ScuzzyEye · 03-09-2022, 08:52 PM

I didn't run 6.50, but noticed the problem in 6.51. I went back and confirmed it also existed in 6.50, and does not exist in 6.49.

In 6.49 the Master channel doesn't provide a track number to plugins on it. Using Softube's Console 1, it just picks the next highest number available. That works fine. Console 1 does show a message that the track number has been manually assigned for the Master, where it doesn't show that message for any of the other non-Master tracks. It gets those track numbers automatically.

In 6.50 and 6.51 the Master channel always reports to the plugin that is is track 1. "Track 1" also reports that it is track 1. So Console 1 inserted both on Track 1 and the Master gets confused and tries to show the settings for both.

I'm sure there are other plugins that also retrieve the track number from the DAW, and I'm sure they'll be equally confused. If Reaper wants to give the Master track a number it should be unique from all other tracks. That's probably preferred so there's no message about the plugin having to manually get a track number. Otherwise, the previous behavior of not providing a number worked well enough.

ramses · 03-09-2022, 10:34 PM

Yes, this is a problem.

ramses · 03-09-2022, 11:17 PM

Assigning unique number to MASTER track should at least be available as an option IMO.

datsua · 03-10-2022, 11:32 PM

Can confirm that this is a problem on 6.50 and 6.51.
Only workaround for Console 1 is to insert a blank track 1.
Hope this will be fixed

schwa · 03-11-2022, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScuzzyEye

I'm sure there are other plugins that also retrieve the track number from the DAW, and I'm sure they'll be equally confused. If Reaper wants to give the Master track a number it should be unique from all other tracks. That's probably preferred so there's no message about the plugin having to manually get a track number. Otherwise, the previous behavior of not providing a number worked well enough.

Ah, well, this was actually us implementing the VST3 "context" specification more completely, at a developer's request. Here is some more info: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=263201

The VST3 channel context spec supports a namespace and index. For the master track, REAPER now exports namespace "MASTER", index 1. For regular tracks, REAPER exports namespace "TRACK", index = track number. If a control surface is reading only the index and not the namespace, that's a bug on their side. Do you definitely have the latest version of their software?

ScuzzyEye · 03-11-2022, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa

Ah, well, this was actually us implementing the VST3 "context" specification more completely, at a developer's request. Here is some more info: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2527907

The VST3 channel context spec supports a namespace and index. For the master track, REAPER now exports namespace "MASTER", index 1. For regular tracks, REAPER exports namespace "TRACK", index = track number. If a control surface is reading only the index and not the namespace, that's a bug on their side. Do you definitely have the latest version of their software?

I do have the latest version (just installed Vocoder this week). The last update that changed the Console 1 plugin was released on December 14th.

I agree, it looks like Softube has only partly implemented the spec. They're only looking at the index number, and not taking into account namespaces.

I'll see about opening a support ticket. At least they do list Reaper 5.50 and later as fully compatible on their matrix, so there may be motivation to keep it working smoothly.

ScuzzyEye · 03-11-2022, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by datsua

Can confirm that this is a problem on 6.50 and 6.51.
Only workaround for Console 1 is to insert a blank track 1.
Hope this will be fixed

I've worked around it in the opposite direction. I've removed the Console 1 plugin from my Master bus, and kept Track 1. Enough people say not to put plugins on the master with Reaper (I've not really noticed any performance issues, but maybe it's saving a few CPU cycles). So I've been working towards having pre-master bus and leaving the Master as a complete unity pass-through on my newer projects anyway.

datsua · 03-14-2022, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScuzzyEye

I do have the latest version (just installed Vocoder this week). The last update that changed the Console 1 plugin was released on December 14th.

I agree, it looks like Softube has only partly implemented the spec. They're only looking at the index number, and not taking into account namespaces.

I'll see about opening a support ticket. At least they do list Reaper 5.50 and later as fully compatible on their matrix, so there may be motivation to keep it working smoothly.

ScuzzyEye, Have you filed a bug with Softube? If not, I can do it

ScuzzyEye · 03-14-2022, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by datsua

ScuzzyEye, Have you filed a bug with Softube? If not, I can do it

I did. Just got a reply that they've created a test case.

Overmann · 10-05-2022, 05:04 AM

I'm on Reaper 6.68 and I have the same problem. I've contacted Softube today, so I hope they'll reply and say that they are fixing it. Is anyone using Console1 with reaper WITHOUT having this issue? Because this happends on all my projects. Master is set to track 1, and so is track 1 :P

ramses · 11-25-2022, 07:24 AM

I had the same issue the other day. Please, Cockos, could you report to Softube? They are notoriously bad at listening to the user base in my experience.

Pule · 12-11-2022, 02:00 PM

That problem is still present and makes normal mixing difficult! Looks like they need a year to change a few lines of code?!

ramses · 01-23-2023, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pule

That problem is still present and makes normal mixing difficult! Looks like they need a year to change a few lines of code?!

Softube "customer service" is a joke. And the plugins are overpriced for what they are. I like the Console1 / Console1Fader control surfaces though. It's a shame, really.

schwa · 01-25-2023, 03:17 AM

The latest prerelease builds have a compatibility option to number the master track as track 0 in this VST3 extension, if anybody wants to try it out. The option is with the other per-FX compatibility options under the "+" button at the top of the FX window.

ramses · 01-25-2023, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa

The latest prerelease builds have a compatibility option to number the master track as track 0 in this VST3 extension, if anybody wants to try it out. The option is with the other per-FX compatibility options under the "+" button at the top of the FX window.

Right on! I'll try to remember to test it out tonight.

ramses · 01-25-2023, 02:30 PM

Bummer. It's still not working, even with that compatibility setting active. In the C1 overlay, I still see channel 1 as fluctuating between 1 and MASTER, and I can't control either one of them...

schwa · 01-25-2023, 03:15 PM

You are running the +dev0124 build?

ramses · 01-26-2023, 03:16 AM

Sorry Schwa, I missed you yesterday. Yes, I was running v6.73+dev0124b.

The thing is, it kind of works. When it works, I get the MASTER as the last track of all tracks in the C1 environment, which is perfect. But I have to insert the plugin on the master with the compatibility setting already activated. If I try to activate it and the plugin is already there, it doesn't work. Also, if it is working, I can't get it to not work again by unticking that compatibility setting. So, it seems like this setting doesn't update the plugin state properly for me. Or something.

schwa · 01-31-2023, 06:48 AM

So I understand, the plugin works correctly if the compatibility setting is enabled before the plugin is inserted?

sibes · 02-07-2023, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramses

Sorry Schwa, I missed you yesterday. Yes, I was running v6.73+dev0124b.

The thing is, it kind of works. When it works, I get the MASTER as the last track of all tracks in the C1 environment, which is perfect. But I have to insert the plugin on the master with the compatibility setting already activated. If I try to activate it and the plugin is already there, it doesn't work. Also, if it is working, I can't get it to not work again by unticking that compatibility setting. So, it seems like this setting doesn't update the plugin state properly for me. Or something.

I've been reading this thread with interest as I have just purchased the Console 1 & Fader and having the same issue.

"But I have to insert the plugin on the master with the compatibility setting already activated."

Where is this compatibility setting you are referring to?

Thanks
Neil

vitalker · 02-07-2023, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sibes

I've been reading this thread with interest as I have just purchased the Console 1 & Fader and having the same issue.

"But I have to insert the plugin on the master with the compatibility setting already activated."

Where is this compatibility setting you are referring to?

Thanks
Neil

If you were actually reading this thread, you wouldn't ask.

sibes · 02-07-2023, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitalker

If you were actually reading this thread, you wouldn't ask.

Thanks for your assistance

vitalker · 02-07-2023, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sibes

Thanks for your assistance

Did you find the post?

sibes · 02-07-2023, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitalker

Did you find the post?

Well I've read this:

"The latest prerelease builds have a compatibility option to number the master track as track 0 in this VST3 extension, if anybody wants to try it out. The option is with the other per-FX compatibility options under the "+" button at the top of the FX window."

When I do the + in FX window as described here: " The option is with the other per-FX compatibility options under the "+" button"

I don't see a specific option relating to the problem

I am running v6.75 of Reaper, I know the post mentioned beta version of 6.74 so by running v6.75 release I should have whatever was launched in 6.74 release anyhow

sibes · 02-07-2023, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitalker

Did you find the post?

See attacehd image - this is what I see.

Please bear in mind I am quite new to Reaper so I can get confused with the myriad of options available

vitalker · 02-07-2023, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sibes

Well I've read this:

"The latest prerelease builds have a compatibility option to number the master track as track 0 in this VST3 extension, if anybody wants to try it out. The option is with the other per-FX compatibility options under the "+" button at the top of the FX window."

When I do the + in FX window as described here: " The option is with the other per-FX compatibility options under the "+" button"

I don't see a specific option relating to the problem

I am running v6.75 of Reaper, I know the post mentioned beta version of 6.74 so by running v6.75 release I should have whatever was launched in 6.74 release anyhow

Looks like this feature wasn't included in release builds (I've check 6.75 and 0126 dev build). You can try it out in dev builds. Remember that not all plugins will have this option, because some of them support this feature natively.

sibes · 02-07-2023, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitalker

Looks like this feature wasn't included in release builds (I've check 6.75 and 0126 dev build). You can try it out in dev builds. Remember that not all plugins will have this option, because some of them support this feature natively.

Ahhh right ok. My bad, I will try out a dev build, thanks

vitalker · 02-07-2023, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sibes

Ahhh right ok. My bad, I will try out a dev build, thanks

Can't say why it wasn't included.

schwa · 02-07-2023, 06:22 AM

Waiting for some feedback on it! So far the only feedback was post 18 and the question in post 19 is still unanswered.

The change to support the way Console 1 deals with the master track is still in the prerelease builds only. Info about prerelease builds here:
https://forum.cockos.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37

sibes · 02-07-2023, 09:07 AM

Ok so I am running 6.75 pre release build. I switched the compatibility setting on but this only works if I "save as preset" and then "set as default".

I assume therefore that when I then Add FX > Console 1 it will be ok to load every instance of Console 1 with that new default preset whether on the master or not? In this current workaround, like someone else said, you can't enable/disable the compatibility when plugin is already active so you have to always have that compatibility setting load in as the default preset.

Master track is always positioned the furthest right in the C1 GUI which is fine as I always put Reaper Master track on the right anyhow

schwa · 02-07-2023, 09:12 AM

Hmm, ok thanks for testing. I would guess the reason it doesn't work if you change the compatibility setting after instantiating the plugin is that the plugin caches some information.

So the fix works, but is not very convenient because you do have to save the setting as a default preset. We could special case the plugin to always set the setting, but then of course if they ever update the plugin it might stop working...

sibes · 02-07-2023, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa

Hmm, ok thanks for testing. I would guess the reason it doesn't work if you change the compatibility setting after instantiating the plugin is that the plugin caches some information.

So the fix works, but is not very convenient because you do have to save the setting as a default preset. We could special case the plugin to always set the setting, but then of course if they ever update the plugin it might stop working...

Or, I guess, rather faffing with setting as a default preset, just don't put C1 on Master and manage that channel directly in Reaper?

Would be handy if the 10th slider on C1 Fader is always the Master even when you change "Page" on C1 Fader.

ScuzzyEye · 02-14-2023, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa

Waiting for some feedback on it! So far the only feedback was post 18 and the question in post 19 is still unanswered.

I didn't see that this fix was in the +dev builds. Softube did email me about my ticket this week indicating that work was being done, so I've had a look.

It would be nice if the compatibility setting could be turned on from the "Add FX" window before adding any instance. But using the + after one has been added, then starting a new (or opening an old) project seems to restore the pre-6.50 behavior exactly. I opened some old projects and they no longer have two conflicting Track 1s.

Trying different combinations of adding and removing tracks works in predicable ways. The 0 Master is always promoted to the first available number (this includes any skipped track that doesn't have a Console 1 instance). It doesn't get automatically demoted if you delete a lower track (all other tracks get renumbered correctly though). The plug-in window reports "Manual track numbers, automatic track name from DAW." for the Master track only (this is the same as before--it seems that 0 is interpreted as unassigned). If you delete a track you can always manually reassign the Master to the lower free track number. You can even manually place it on something like track 20 and leave a gap below it.

All-in-all, I'm happy with this work around. As I said, it restores pre-6.50 behavior, which I was also OK with. Would it be nice if the Master was always the highest track+1? Sure, but that also only makes sense for people who put the Master on the right. This is also better than Master always being 1, and having to add 1 to all the other track numbers to find them on the hardware. And so much better than having conflicting 1s.

Ship it!

vitalker · 02-14-2023, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScuzzyEye

It would be nice if the compatibility setting could be turned on from the "Add FX" window before adding any instance. But using the + after one has been added, then starting a new (or opening an old) project seems to restore the pre-6.50 behavior exactly. I opened some old projects and they no longer have two conflicting Track 1s.

What you see in "+" menu is kind of a mirror from FX browser context menu. First menu is for current instance and second menu is for new instances.

ScuzzyEye · 02-14-2023, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitalker

What you see in "+" menu is kind of a mirror from FX browser context menu. First menu is for current instance and second menu is for new instances.

I thought that too, but you can't enable the check box in the Add FX window. The option is there, but doesn't do anything. Once you've turned it on in the + menu, it'll then be checked in the Add FX. Thought then, you can't turn it back off in the right-click menu of the Add FX either.

Maybe that was just something that was missed. Don't ship it yet.

vitalker · 02-14-2023, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScuzzyEye

I thought that too, but you can't enable the check box in the Add FX window. The option is there, but doesn't do anything. Once you've turned it on in the + menu, it'll then be checked in the Add FX. Thought then, you can't turn it back off in the right-click menu of the Add FX either.

Maybe that was just something that was missed. Don't ship it yet.

Go to View -> FX browser and try again. Perhaps it's a bug that it can't be enabled from there.

ScuzzyEye · 02-14-2023, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitalker

Go to View -> FX browser and try again. Perhaps it's a bug that it can't be enabled from there.

I just spent a half hour with 675+dev0213 and then 675+dev0214, and even going back to 673+dev0124 (the original with this fix), trying to enable the check mark on the setting from the Add FX Browser. Just tried with the View Browse FX, it doesn't change checked state there either. Only works from the + menu after you add it.

vitalker · 02-14-2023, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScuzzyEye

I just spent a half hour with 675+dev0213 and then 675+dev0214, and even going back to 673+dev0124 (the original with this fix), trying to enable the check mark on the setting from the Add FX Browser. Just tried with the View Browse FX, it doesn't change checked state there either. Only works from the + menu after you add it.

You are right. Just tried it with one plugin and it is still unchecked.

ScuzzyEye · 02-14-2023, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sibes

Ok so I am running 6.75 pre release build. I switched the compatibility setting on but this only works if I "save as preset" and then "set as default".

I've been trying to figure out what wasn't working for you. I'm not seeing any need to save as a default preset. Yes, enabling the compatibility setting after you have a Console 1 instance on Master doesn't immediately fix the problem. But closing and reloading the project seems to get it right. You can even delete the Console 1 from the Master track, then immediately hit undo, and it will get assigned to the first free track number.

ScuzzyEye · 03-01-2023, 07:55 PM

I suppose this still needs more testing before being included in a release. Anyone else with a Console 1 controller able to check to see if they're happy with this work-around of giving the Master a track number of 0?

As I was saying, the only thing I thought was odd is that you can see the option while the Console 1 plugin is selected in the FX browser, but can't change the setting there. Once you add one instance, and enable the setting is works just like it did before the namespace change, which is fine with me.