View Poll Results: Faders/knobs option for default UI
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Yes please !!!
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17 |
80.95% |
No, don't care/don't use JSX
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3 |
14.29% |
Whatever !
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1 |
4.76% |
11-21-2017, 06:57 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Default/JSX user interface improvement
I recently participated in the Reaper contest ( https://reapercontest.wixsite.com/home) where anyone can mix a song using only Reaper plugins or JS.
A great experience that made me discover many nice JS effects available in Reaper.
However, it became clear that UI in both reaplugs and JS sucks (unless there is special UI on the JS, cf Sonic Anomaly and some others).
With default UI, you’re stuck with un-appealing, unefficient horizontal faders. I’ve made my peace with the fact that you can have fantastic theming in Reaper but you’ll still have Reaplugs looking outdated.
Changing reaplugs seems too be time consuming. However, I dont’t see why changing horizontal faders for knobs in the default UI would take any time at all.
So I’d like the possibility to switch between horizontal sliders to knobs.
It's more efficient and easy to use.
It also looks better and is more screen estate efficient.
Parameters that use few values could use knob selectors (like program eq), it would make more sense than an horizontal fader.
Am I the only feeling this ?
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11-21-2017, 08:25 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: France
Posts: 9,875
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Indeed, even small features can be a great improvements.
Related thread: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=178532
Separator lines, colored sliders, Titles... as long as it stay easy (which is the point of JSFX), it can be nice !
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11-21-2017, 09:07 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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I can understand where you are coming from, but to me none of them are "real" so why bother making them pretend they are?
I suppose from MY perspective if a plugin works and does what I want it to, the GUI is less important than if it doesn't work how I expect/want it to.
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
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11-21-2017, 01:29 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Raym
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Yes, really a bummmer there seems to be little to no improvement over time on this...
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11-21-2017, 02:13 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
I can understand where you are coming from, but to me none of them are "real" so why bother making them pretend they are?
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I'm sorry, I don't get it, what's not "real" ?
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12-14-2017, 01:47 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Just to see how far I could push this, I put together a JSFX using bits and pieces from here and there.
I then used it to mix the Reaper Contest mix of December.
I used the SWIPE library for parts of the GUI and a bunch of pieces of JSFX from user Witti and from cookdsp from Olivier Belanger.
The result isn't really pretty and the Fx itself isn't really that great, but it does show how nice it could actually look if default GUI wouldn't look so bad...
Reaper_Contest-Channel_Strip by Joanny Krafft, sur Flickr
Any thoughts ?
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12-14-2017, 08:22 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacFizz
Just to see how far I could push this, I put together a JSFX using bits and pieces from here and there.
I then used it to mix the Reaper Contest mix of December.
I used the SWIPE library for parts of the GUI and a bunch of pieces of JSFX from user Witti and from cookdsp from Olivier Belanger.
The result isn't really pretty and the Fx itself isn't really that great, but it does show how nice it could actually look if default GUI wouldn't look so bad...
Reaper_Contest-Channel_Strip by Joanny Krafft, sur Flickr
Any thoughts ?
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hey men, thats cool!
great work
is available for download?
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12-14-2017, 08:34 AM
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#8
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: England
Posts: 2,432
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Quote:
A great experience that made me discover many nice JS effects available in Reaper.
However, it became clear that UI in both reaplugs and JS sucks (unless there is special UI on the JS, cf Sonic Anomaly and some others).
Am I the only feeling this ?
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Ey MacFizz- totally with you ++godzillion. Sonic Anomaly + some other named scripters are really showing what can be done to date-nice 'n' simplez.
@martinmadero -yeap-right click,save image as... - you could do this yourself--it's just a graphic respresentation of an idea..most people can do this now with the right mind set+knowledge+software/hardware.
Some of the scripts and jsfx are dynamic in shape and sizings,unlike a lot of older vst plug_ins are kinda fixed dimensions...
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12-14-2017, 09:51 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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12-14-2017, 09:53 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1
Ey MacFizz- totally with you ++godzillion. Sonic Anomaly + some other named scripters are really showing what can be done to date-nice 'n' simplez.
@martinmadero -yeap-right click,save image as... - you could do this yourself--it's just a graphic respresentation of an idea..most people can do this now with the right mind set+knowledge+software/hardware.
Some of the scripts and jsfx are dynamic in shape and sizings,unlike a lot of older vst plug_ins are kinda fixed dimensions...
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It's more than that, it's a usable JSFX.
It's not optimized in any ways, but it works and I used it to mix this month's Reaper Contest. Not my best work though 'cause I didn't have anytime to actually do mixing work, but it just shows that it works...
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12-15-2017, 07:41 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacFizz
With default UI, you’re stuck with un-appealing, unefficient horizontal faders. I’ve made my peace with the fact that you can have fantastic theming in Reaper but you’ll still have Reaplugs looking outdated.
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I still have hope that they get sometime WALTER or something like that.
Masi
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12-17-2017, 05:40 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masi
I still have hope that they get sometime WALTER or something like that.
Masi
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Well, I've given up hope on that...
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12-17-2017, 06:07 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacFizz
I'm sorry, I don't get it, what's not "real" ?
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Only just noticed your reply. Sorry!
I meant that all the graphical representations o f knobs et are just that - representations on a screen, not real knobs and faders etc.
Eye candy is fine if you like and want it, I am perfectly happy with the current plain vanilla ones supplied, as they work as intended.
Mind you your take on this IS pretty but what a lot of screen real estate it uses.
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
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12-17-2017, 08:33 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
Only just noticed your reply. Sorry!
I meant that all the graphical representations o f knobs et are just that - representations on a screen, not real knobs and faders etc.
Eye candy is fine if you like and want it, I am perfectly happy with the current plain vanilla ones supplied, as they work as intended.
Mind you your take on this IS pretty but what a lot of screen real estate it uses.
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Well, it's easier to operate, plus it is a lot less screen estate than the 40 sliders would take with default UI.
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12-17-2017, 09:13 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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How did you make 25 knobs out of 40 sliders then?
P.S. Most of what I actually like about the plain vanilla version is that sliders are much easier to manipulate with a mouse than rotary controls.
EDIT: Just downloaded your work and realised I have no idea where to put it all. Do I just treat it like another JS plug, or what? Curious to see it in situ.
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
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12-17-2017, 10:48 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Oxfordshire, UK
Posts: 60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
How did you make 25 knobs out of 40 sliders then?
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I havent downloaded this, but i think the various selectors/checkboxes would need to be sliders in a generic JS FX. And there are 15 or 16 of those!
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12-17-2017, 03:31 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
How did you make 25 knobs out of 40 sliders then?
P.S. Most of what I actually like about the plain vanilla version is that sliders are much easier to manipulate with a mouse than rotary controls.
EDIT: Just downloaded your work and realised I have no idea where to put it all. Do I just treat it like another JS plug, or what? Curious to see it in situ.
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Unzip it in the effect folder (use options, then "Show Reaper ressource path"), it'll then be detected as JS plugin.
You're right about rotary control in some cases.
In this plug the mouse logic controlling the knobs isn't really great . For now I'm relying on the SWIPE framework, so, knobs have cirtcular control (not good) and linear only (not great either). I'm working on a workaround with at least better mouse logic, allowing control with mousewheel and vertical control only.
My problem with sliders is that there not always adequate for a task. And horizontal slider ?!
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12-17-2017, 03:33 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vordex
I havent downloaded this, but i think the various selectors/checkboxes would need to be sliders in a generic JS FX. And there are 15 or 16 of those!
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Absolutly.
Simple JS with a couple of sliders aren't a problem, but when you start having more than a dozen of them, things are getting difficult and of course, a checkbox is so much easier than dropdown selector as in the default UI.
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12-22-2017, 03:20 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Still trying to make my point.
I've updated the Channel Strip:
- Improved knob management, more usable specialy on frequency knobs
- Colors (oh wow) just to make thingd easier to read, not really prettier
- Changed filters, now uses LITEON filters, with 12db/oct and 24db/oct switch
- Tons of code optimization, now detects stereo/mono
- Added Schwa's soft limiter
- Added possibility to switch EQ and compressor order
- Lots of other stuff, tweaks to make this more usable. Gate, compressor and EQ audio processing stayed untouched
If anyone don't mind trying it (maybe on next month's Reaper Contest), please tell me your thoughts...
unnamed
Downloadable here: https://stash.reaper.fm/32490/Reaper...ip-MacFizz.zip
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12-29-2017, 07:51 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Some more adjustments, bug fix, bells and whistles
- Gate status indicator
- Limiter's knob now works properly
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12-29-2017, 11:25 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 167
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Really nice job! Excellent packaging and a very intuitive UI.
I think the point is here that, in many instances, knobs can save space as opposed to sliders.
Side note, on my system it seems like you have to move your mouse in a circular motion for the knobs. Was a little confusing, since most other plugins seem to use vertical mouse movement.
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12-29-2017, 01:20 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,688
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Silly poll !
I'd like to click "I don't want the default JSFX GUI to be changed".
-Michael
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12-29-2017, 01:41 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allspice
Side note, on my system it seems like you have to move your mouse in a circular motion for the knobs. Was a little confusing, since most other plugins seem to use vertical mouse movement.
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Unfortunatly, it's due to the SWIPE library I use, but I'm working on my very own knob function with vertical mouse mouvement, modifiers (shift for fine) and wheelmouse. I hope to finish it soon but I'm not a object oriented developer so many things are new for me and I still have much to learn.
I'm also working on a chorus/delay/reverb combo JSFX with the same kind of GUI to be used in the Reaper Contest (or elsewhere).
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12-30-2017, 03:00 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Mac - new version is much more compact and therefore probably more usable.
I have had a good long think about this whole fader/sliders vs knobs situation and come to the conclusion that even though I am an old tape head, I prefer GUIs where I dont have to twiddle virtual knobs. One of the biggest issues I have is the way in which the twiddling is achieved in different way by different authors. As Allspice said earlier.
Maybe the best option is what we have now, the UI button, but at the same time prettying up the JSFX "look" a little. I wouldn`t want to lose the option to use faders.
An aside: Maybe all those old-fashioned geeky looking seventies silver stereos had the best design after all.
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
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12-30-2017, 03:45 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
Silly poll !
I'd like to click "I don't want the default JSFX GUI to be changed".
-Michael
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I don't want it to be changed, I'd like it to have the option to have something more usable and prettier (and also not beeing such a pain in the *ss to make GUI)
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12-30-2017, 03:48 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
Mac - new version is much more compact and therefore probably more usable.
I have had a good long think about this whole fader/sliders vs knobs situation and come to the conclusion that even though I am an old tape head, I prefer GUIs where I dont have to twiddle virtual knobs. One of the biggest issues I have is the way in which the twiddling is achieved in different way by different authors. As Allspice said earlier.
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I understand that, but for me, Horizontal faders are probably the worst looking and less usable option. I'd prefer vertical faders. And instead of dropdown menu for fixed values (on, off, etc.) why not use radio buttons. It exists in html for 2 decades, how hard could it be to implement that ?
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12-30-2017, 05:05 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacFizz
I don't want it to be changed, I'd like it to have the option to have something more usable and prettier (and also not beeing such a pain in the *ss to make GUI)
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The "silly" was not supposed to bash the idea (of course it's OK to post same, even if I doubt it would be a good default), but to bash the poll not providing a "No" vote.
-Michael
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12-30-2017, 05:07 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacFizz
I'd prefer vertical faders.
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JSFX allows for doing 64 faders. I would not like to see a plugin with 64 vertical faders ! JSFX allows for drop down boxes with as many entries as desired. Not usable with radio buttons.
For just a few parameters and parameters with just a few possible values there might be better looking alternatives, that could be available optionally, but if you really want those, you can construct a dedicated GUI (there are some tool sets).
-Michael
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12-31-2017, 03:54 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
For just a few parameters and parameters with just a few possible values there might be better looking alternatives, that could be available optionally, but if you really want those, you can construct a dedicated GUI (there are some tool sets).
-Michael
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Well, that's the thing for me, for now, it's just missing a few simple GUI options.
Building a dedicated GUI takes a lot of time. Maybe because Jesusonic wasn't primarly designed to have GUI. So now, you can find very good JSFX. Effects, tools, whatever you need. But in most case, once the dev has finished with the dsp part, well, he would have to spend just as much time on the GUI, so in most case, you'll end up with a nice sounding effect or a very useful tool but unfortunatly nobody will use it because the GUI is obscure and difficult to use. Even a simple indicator or value feedback can be a pain. Some ar just using a slider to display a value.
I'd pay to have actual usage statistics on JS plugins. I'm pretty sure people take a look and don't understand what the plugin do or how it works and just discard it. Personaly, I use some of sonic anomaly's, and not only because they sound good.
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12-31-2017, 02:50 PM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacFizz
I'm pretty sure people take a look and don't understand what the plugin do or how it works and just discard it.
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I fully agree on this. But IMHO this is not because of the "ugly" GUI but in most cases because of the complete lacking of any documentation.
Happily ReaPack allows for providing very usable documentation right within the JSFX (or other scripts). Hopefully Reaper some day will be equipped with means to show same without using the "Extension" menu.
-Michael
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01-02-2018, 01:50 PM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 437
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Just wanted to add that JS plugins are awesome.
I'm using them with the "Albert Pro Tools" skin and they look awesome too!
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01-05-2018, 01:44 PM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allspice
Side note, on my system it seems like you have to move your mouse in a circular motion for the knobs. Was a little confusing, since most other plugins seem to use vertical mouse movement.
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Fixed !!!
unnamed
- Some more bug fix (thx Witti), gate release works as expected now.
- Knobs are not from SWIPE anymore. So, it's all mouseclick+vertical movement (with shift modifier) and mousewheel. "Fine" checkbox removed, didn't need it anymore. Similar look.
- Added "Saturation" by LOSER
Available here: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/32490/Reap...ip-MacFizz.zip
Any feedback appreciated.
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01-05-2018, 05:20 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 310
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How to install
Hi MacFizz,
Can you tell me how to install? I put it in the resourcepath\effects folder, but I don't see it in the effects pick list.
Thanks,
Ken
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01-05-2018, 05:25 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 310
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Nevamind... found the "scan for plugins" in the fx bin
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01-05-2018, 05:40 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 310
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I'm finding that when I engage the HPF, I'm getting crackling and static. Anyone else seeing this?
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01-06-2018, 12:17 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgarello
I'm finding that when I engage the HPF, I'm getting crackling and static. Anyone else seeing this?
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Confirmed on my system, too. It seems like it mimics the dynamics of the track, also for some reason on my system its worse if I pan the track to the right.
Great work, still. This could end up being a very fun tool for newer DAW users who may not have a ton of favorite plugins at their disposal.
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01-06-2018, 02:36 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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OK, it seems we have several problems going on here:
- I uploaded the wrong file, so the gate release bug is still there (yes, I might be a idiot...)
- However, the gate is still behaving strangely, I'll have to investigate
- Both filters have problems and do not performed as expected, I'll probably revert to previous filters I used form cookdsp.
On my test system, gate and filters put out some buzz.
Please note, as the initial filters are working fine, I probably screwed up my implementation into this plug in at some point.
I'm probably going to switch to Witti' Gate which seems just as efficient and much more simple to implement but without look ahead.
I'll upload a fix as soon as possible, thx for the feedback.
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01-10-2018, 07:24 AM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Colmar, France
Posts: 401
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Updated !!!
- Even more bugfixes
- Fixed Saturation knob (didn't work at all)
- Switched gate dsp to Witti's gate
- Switched filter to Stillwell x-pole implementation
Please note:
On some systems, crackling noises can be heard at time, I'm still investigating...
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01-11-2018, 04:50 AM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Ha Ha! OK ya got me. I was about to say I agree on the vertical vs horizontal sliders but since your "knob behaviour" now follows this, I have just D/L`d and will gived it a bash. I use a fair few JS so you may have a new confert....
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
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01-11-2018, 06:33 AM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: mostly inside my own head
Posts: 346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacFizz
Unfortunatly, it's due to the SWIPE library I use, but I'm working on my very own knob function with vertical mouse mouvement, modifiers (shift for fine) and wheelmouse. I hope to finish it soon but I'm not a object oriented developer so many things are new for me and I still have much to learn.
I'm also working on a chorus/delay/reverb combo JSFX with the same kind of GUI to be used in the Reaper Contest (or elsewhere).
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In case it's useful: I also wrote a JSFX UI/layout library a while back. The documentation isn't ideal, but there's a quick-start guide, and I use it for all of my effects.
A UI with lots of controls still needs a bit of code, but it does stretch with window resizes, and support things like text-wrapping, and multiple screens/dialogs (which I definitely needed for PadSynth), and text-entry fields.
Last edited by geraintluff; 01-23-2018 at 06:36 PM.
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