V3.73 - All MIDI notes doesn't get recorded (FIXED)

[Boray]

I think I have eliminated all other possible reasons, the problem must be in Reaper. I have one midi device generating sound and another keyboard that I play on. When I play and record, all tones are heard on the sound generating device, but all notes just doesn't get recorded in Reaper. As they were heard when I played, it must be Reaper that is the trouble. Reaper shuffles all the data to the sound generating midi device while recording alright, but it fails to record all the notes. Most of them are recorded, but here and there, a note is missing.

Windows Vista 32 Home Basic
AMD Athlon X2 5600+ 4GB ram
Maya 44 Mk2 v1.08
AudioTrak MidiMate

[Boray]

I tried two different midi input devices. Same result. One Yamaha V50 and one Ensoniq SQ1+.

[schwa]

Sometimes this problem is caused by devices that send overlapping note data (that is, a note-on message before the previous note-off message, for the same pitch and channel). E-drums in particular tend to do this. You could try opening the MIDI editor and making sure "Options/Automatically correct overlapping notes" is not checked.

[DarkStar]

Just so that I am clear:
-- all of the MIDI notes come into Reaper AND are routed out of Reaper to the sound-generating device,
-- there is no MIDI route from the MIDI generator to the sound-generator, other than through Reaper,
-- but not all of the MIDI notes are recorded into a MIDI clip by Reaper.

Is there anything common to (or special about) the points where the MIDI notes are dropped?

[DarkStar]

Originally Posted by schwa

Sometimes this problem is caused by devices that send overlapping note data (that is, a note-on message before the previous note-off message, for the same pitch and channel). E-drums in particular tend to do this. You could try opening the MIDI editor and making sure "Options/Automatically correct overlapping notes" is not checked.

@schwa, can you describe how Reaper deals with overlapping notes if that option is checked or not checked?

[Boray]

Originally Posted by schwa

for the same pitch and channel).

They have not been of the same pitch, but I will try that anyway.

[Boray]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

Just so that I am clear:
-- all of the MIDI notes come into Reaper AND are routed out of Reaper to the sound-generating device,
-- there is no MIDI route from the MIDI generator to the sound-generator, other than through Reaper,
-- but not all of the MIDI notes are recorded into a MIDI clip by Reaper.

Correct

Originally Posted by DarkStar

Is there anything common to (or special about) the points where the MIDI notes are dropped?

No I don't think so. I noticed it first when playing a solo melody with no chords, just one note after the other all the way...

[Boray]

Originally Posted by schwa

Sometimes this problem is caused by devices that send overlapping note data (that is, a note-on message before the previous note-off message, for the same pitch and channel). E-drums in particular tend to do this. You could try opening the MIDI editor and making sure "Options/Automatically correct overlapping notes" is not checked.

Tried it now. Didn't help.

[schwa]

This might be a lot to ask, but are you set up in any way that you could record the MIDI in parallel, in both REAPER and some other application, for comparison?

[Boray]

Is it possible to open the same midi input in two programs at the same time then? If that's the case then maybe I could try to install some other program to try with.

[schwa]

The test would require a bit of work, which is why I said it might be a lot to ask. You'd either need to use a virtual MIDI cable app like MIDI-yoke to duplicate the physical MIDI input to two separate virtual ports, or it might work to record directly in one app and within that app, route the MIDI to another output, which gets recorded by the other app.

[DarkStar]

... or run Reaper as a ReWire slave?

[Boray]

Ok, here it is...

I installed LoopBe1 internal Midi Port and Renoise. I then routed the midi accordingly:

synth->Reaper->Renoise and got the following:




There you can see a missing tone.

[Boray]

Hey, the missing tones seems to get stuck at the end:

[schwa]

That's just completely weird! Can you attach the REAPER .rpp project file, and .mid file that got recorded in Renoise, so we can look at the internals? (Or email to support at cockos.)


PS. thank you very much for persevering with this problem! Whatever the issue is, we are far more likely to figure it out thanks to your extra efforts.

[Boray]

Renoice doesn't record midi the same way as normal midi sequencers, so maybe it would be better to try with another program. Could you recommend a freeware sequencer for that?

[Boray]

I finally found a program (called Anvil) where I could figure out how to record and save a mid file...

Here:
http://boray.wontek.net/test.zip

The routing here was:
Synth->Reaper->Anvil->Synth

[Boray]

Originally Posted by schwa

The test would require a bit of work, which is why I said it might be a lot to ask.

Well, I think I have installed 9 different programs and done one system restore, so yes!

[schwa]

Thanks for posting the info!

The REAPER project has one MIDI item in it. The two Anvil*.mid files appear to be identical, but what's odd is that the timing is completely different between the .mid files and the MIDI item in the REAPER project.

The MIDI in REAPER appears to have been stretched by a factor of about 1.5, which might be a clue to the source of the problem. The play rate in the project is set to 1.0, but is there any chance it was not 1.0 when you recorded the MIDI? Could there be a sample rate miscommunication between REAPER and your audio device?

[Boray]

The two Anvil files was because I saved one as "Save as" (which turned out to be a mid file), I then also exported a mid file.

It was recorded at 1.0 speed just as the project is. And it seems to run at 1.0 speed as well. (Have no idea about Anvil though).

When changing from ASIO to WaveOut or DirectX, the problem gets worse. With WDM Kernal streaming it was about same as ASIO. With "Dummy Audio", the problem still is there! About as often as for ASIO. As it's still there with Dummy Audio, I guess it can't be because of anything with the sound card...

[DarkStar]

It looks to me that it must be a timing/buffering/ issue within Reaper (but your trials with other audio devices could be indicative)

Originally Posted by Boray

I then routed the midi accordingly:
synth->Reaper->Renoise

What I cannot understand is that if Reaper does not record all the MIDI notes how are they being passed on to Renoise?

[Boray]

The tones gets recorded, but they get stuck at the end of the clip and doesn't seem to have a note-off. So they seem to get the wrong time altogether.

[DarkStar]

Ah ha, do you mean the short E note at the end of the Clip? I did not see that before.

If so, then the note was passed on to Renoise correctly, but its position and length was miscalculated in Reaper.

If you change your audio interface buffer size does the number of misplaced notes change?

[DarkStar]

Here's something-else a bit odd:
-- I loaded anvil.mid into the test project and timestretched the clips to the same (longer) length.
-- looking at the misplaced note in the Test project, at that position in anvil.mid are various MIDI messages, as can be seen below:

[img]http://img834.**************/img834/8372/r373dsmisplacedmidi01.png[/img]

-- and the misplaced note is about 2 bars adrift.

------------------
Edit: I think that those messages at the end of the clip could be an artefact of my diagnosis, if so, forget about them)

[Boray]

With an ASIO buffer of 2048 samples it seems to work! But the audio works with a much smaller buffer. I usually have it at 256 or 512 samples.

[Boray]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

-- and the misplaced note is about 2 bars adrift.

That depends on when I stop recording. It's always placed at the very end of the recorded clip. Also try to make the clip longer by dragging in the right end of the midi clip; the tone then goes on forever.

[schwa]

Sorry to keep repeating myself, but this is a truly bizarre problem. It must be something specific to your setup, since it's not reproducible elsewhere, but I have no idea what, yet.

You said that you have this problem with 2 different input devices, but are they both going through the MIDI Mate? Do you have any way to bypass the MIDI Mate?

Random thought, in Preferences/Audio/MIDI devices, is "restrict MIDI hardware output to one thread" checked or unchecked?

[Boray]

Originally Posted by schwa

Random thought, in Preferences/Audio/MIDI devices, is "restrict MIDI hardware output to one thread" checked or unchecked?

Tried to uncheck it now. Didn't make any difference.

I only have the MidiMate interface.

[Boray]

I tried the other synth now again, and it's exactly the same problem with that one.

Here is another clue for you: When not connecting tones but playing staccato, this does NOT happen, or at least much more seldom. So when playing drums on the keyboard, notes are generally NOT missing. But as soon as I play a connecting melody, the problem shows right away.

[DarkStar]

[Overlapping post]
^^^^
You're right there is no Note off for that misplaced note. here is a binary view of the exported file (I deleted most of the notes, leaving just two and the misplaced note):

[img]http://img24.**************/img24/5629/r373dsmisplacedmidi02.png[/img]

I loaded anvil.mid into energyXT v1 and looked at the Event List - before and after the notes there are many Pitch Bend and MIDI CC messages - all for channel 01 (there are 16 messages of each type) and with the same timestamp. This can be seen in these screenshots:

[IMG]http://img208.**************/img208/5845/r373dsmisplacedmidianvi.th.png[/IMG]
Big pic:
http://img208.**************/img208/5...edmidianvi.png

Uploaded with **************

[Boray]

Here is a second test:
http://boray.wontek.net/test2.zip

This time with the other Synth (Ensoniq) and this routing:

synth->Anvil->Reaper->Synth

[schwa]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

there is no Note off for that misplaced note.

I assume you are looking at a .mid export of the REAPER MIDI item. Actually there is a note-off for that note ... "80 4D 00". It appears the MIDI device sends note-on with velocity zero as note-off (which is not uncommon), and my guess is that last "real" note-off is REAPER cleaning up what it saw as a hanging note-on.

None of this leaves us any closer to understanding the trouble, though.

[DarkStar]

Well, that test2 project rules out all those multiple control messages

So, after a few seconds, a note is corrupted in Reaper and gets misplaced.

I still can't work out why the clip from Anvil is shorter (faster) than the recording in Reaper (when you consider the notes).

Silly idea: what happens if you play a sequence of, e.g. C, D, E, C, D, E, that is 3 different notes?

----------------
If I load anvil.mid into Reaper and record the track output it is recorded correctly. (But that doesn't help much either.)

[DarkStar]

Originally Posted by schwa

I assume you are looking at a .mid export of the REAPER MIDI item. Actually there is a note-off for that note ... "80 4D 00". It appears the MIDI device sends note-on with velocity zero as note-off (which is not uncommon), and my guess is that last "real" note-off is REAPER cleaning up what it saw as a hanging note-on.

None of this leaves us any closer to understanding the trouble, though.

Yes that was a .mid Export. So there is a "real" note off

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

Yes that was a .mid Export. So there is a "real" note off

DarkStar:

What program are you using to view the MIDI file in that screenshot?

[img]http://img24.**************/img24/5629/r373dsmisplacedmidi02.png[/img]

Ben

[DarkStar]

Originally Posted by Boray

The routing here was: Synth->Reaper->Anvil->Synth

-- result: Reaper recording was not correct, but the Anvil recording was.

Originally Posted by Boray

and this routing:
synth->Anvil->Reaper->Synth

-- result the Anvil recording was correct, but the Reaper recording was not.

It's a mystery. Especially the first case; if Reaper is passing on one set of data but recording another.

--------------
Clutching at straws department asks: What happens if you output the clip recorded in Reaper to Anvil and record it there?

[schwa]

lowellben, that's XVI32, a freeware hex editor (very handy).

The difference in timing between REAPER and the properly recorded MIDI is the key to the problem. REAPER is receiving the MIDI notes and passing them on properly, but when it records the MIDI, some time base is simply wrong, so notes that are supposed to be recorded in one buffer block get put off until later (much later), and eventually a new note-on collides with the waiting note-on and notes get skipped.

These kinds of problems are tough when they can't be reproduced anywhere but on the user's computer, but I'll look through the code for any clues about what time base could be incorrect.

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by schwa

lowellben, that's XVI32, a freeware hex editor (very handy).

Ah, thank you!

Do you think it will work on Win7 32bit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_hex_editors

(Sorry, for the brief OT here)

[DarkStar]

Originally Posted by lowellben

DarkStar:

What program are you using to view the MIDI file in that screenshot?

[img]http://img24.**************/img24/5629/r373dsmisplacedmidi02.png[/img]

Ben

It's called XVI32 from here:
http://www.chmaas.handshake.de/delph...vi32/xvi32.htm
-- well worth a donation,
-- it was recommended to me by asseca.

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

It's called XVI32 from here:
http://www.chmaas.handshake.de/delph...vi32/xvi32.htm
-- well worth a donation,
-- it was recommended to me by asseca.

Nice! I saw that it hasn't been updated since 2003. Does mean Windows 7 can't (or shouldn't) run it?

Should I use another, perhaps? Just curious -

Thanks!

XVI32 v2.51 02003-08-02 August 2, 2003
(wiki link from my previous post)