Old 04-22-2021, 05:28 PM   #1
ronnydee
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Default Drum mic bleed🤔

I have a multiple mic setup on the drumkit, one for each tom,kick,and snare. Mics are connected to an audio interface. I created a track for each drum.

As i expected, striking one drum is also sensed on other tracks. Is this what is called mic bleed?

What techniques are used to eliminate this these issues?

Any videos on this topic would be great?

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Old 04-22-2021, 06:00 PM   #2
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The vast majority of music people listen to has drum mic bleed over the decades. Sure, micing technique minimizes it's level verses what the mic is pointed at, and some genres like to gate the crap out of it to serve that genre. So, if one of those genres consider gating etc. but if you are just recording drums in general, learn to work the bleed to your advantage as it is often part of what makes the drums sound good as an instrument.

Heck, some of the most popular drum VSTs include bleed so it often isn't an issue unless one wants it to be an issue.
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Old 04-22-2021, 07:09 PM   #3
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Yeah... You're going to make a mix anyway so you just need enough separation to control the mix.

You can't pan 100% left or right and you can you can't fix a bad-hit.

There are "drum replacement" tools that replace recorded drums with MIDI and then everything is isolated. But you might not want to loose the "real" drum sound. You can probably get enough isolation to (mostly) avoid false-triggers but I've never done drum replacement and I assume it requires some manual editing.
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Old 04-22-2021, 07:24 PM   #4
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Let it bleed!

Seriously though... a good drum set sound has a lot to do with the room, mic positions, the drum set and how it’s tuned, and maybe most importantly, the player. You mention nothing about these factors, so it’s difficult to advise.

Good discussion here:
https://gearspace.com/board/newbie-a...-drum-kit.html

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Old 04-22-2021, 08:50 PM   #5
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Use less mics. Make the drum mix there own damn self.

Or use triggers/sample replacement. For me there's kind of no middle ground. But I suppose if you're willing to pay me for all the extra time setting up those mics and fucking around to minimize the negative effects of bleed... I'll probably take the dollars and still only actually use 3 mics in the mix.
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Old 04-22-2021, 09:10 PM   #6
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As has already been said, let it bleed. One of the things I love about Superior Drummer 2 is the mic bleed where you hit the first rack tom and it buzzes on the snare mic, just like real drums.

Take that away with gates and you have drums in a vacuum, which can have a use too, but for a natural sound mic bleed lets the drums breathe a bit.
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Old 04-23-2021, 03:55 AM   #7
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The one that will really fuck you is the hi-hat in the snare mic so I'd focus on minimizing that
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Old 04-23-2021, 08:26 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valy View Post
The one that will really fuck you is the hi-hat in the snare mic so I'd focus on minimizing that
Absolutely ‒ I sometimes wonder when listening to an isolated/solo'd snare track how little hihat can be achieved. I never managed to, and I'm not a loud drummer at all.
Maybe my mic placement (or choice) is still wrong after 20 years of recording?
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:01 AM   #9
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Here's a cool trick for reducing hi hat bleed in the snare mic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR3mKXORiiw
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:02 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Abraham Liftin' View Post
The one exception I make is, after recording, I go through the track and cut out any parts of my tom tracks where I'm not playing my toms. Considering how seldom toms are hit during most songs, it's not that long a process. But that's just me. Some people might not even mind the toms ringing.
I do the exact same thing.
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:24 AM   #11
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The one that will really fuck you is the hi-hat in the snare mic so I'd focus on minimizing that
I used to use a Shure SM58 on my snare and had to angle it such that the hihat on the left and the remote hihat on the right were being picked up way too much. I cut the corner off of a plastic Tupperware box and used it as a shield.

https://sclkssl.ssl.hwcdn.net/38/img...205_805382.jpg

Since that pic was taken I've put a set of Sennheiser E604s on my kit which are so small I can angle them down where it's no longer a problem.
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:27 AM   #12
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The one that will really fuck you is the hi-hat in the snare mic so I'd focus on minimizing that

That drives me crazy. I have good luck with a Beta 57 (which I don't particularly like). But I finally picked up a Beyerdynamic M201TG hypercardioid. It's been my go-to snare microphone for a few years now... goodbye excessive hihat bleed!
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Old 04-23-2021, 12:35 PM   #13
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Bleed isn't an issue by itself.

One reason for putting enormous effort into isolation is to have the ability to alter the song arrangement without worrying about now hearing the wrong chord in the background. Some of us, you know, have the song written before recording it! But this is a thing.

Beyond that you just want to have control over the mix. If your hat is way louder than your snare in the overheads and also the snare spot mic, then that hat "bleed" is a problem!

Go for the main drum sound with the overhead pair + kick.
Position the mics to get the full kit with the snare centered.

Spot mics can add upfront clarity and punch. Pay attention to phase! Or cheat and do it after the fact here in the computer age. Spot mics should reinforce the sounds and not comb filter anything else into weirdness.
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Old 04-24-2021, 04:29 PM   #14
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Default Mic bleed

Thankx for all your replies

New to the nuts and bolts about recording so naive about all the factors mentioned.

I usually use the 4 mic glyn John’s approach. So I’ll stick with it.
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Old 04-25-2021, 04:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnydee View Post
Thankx for all your replies

New to the nuts and bolts about recording so naive about all the factors mentioned.

I usually use the 4 mic glyn John’s approach. So I’ll stick with it.
Glyn John and Recorderman techniques are awesome. My advice would have been to use those, but I see you're already there.
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Old 04-26-2021, 03:28 PM   #16
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Glyn John and Recorderman techniques are awesome. My advice would have been to use those, but I see you're already there.
Hi jerome,

Im just doing home recording of myself on the kit. So i should just keep it basic by recording, play with eq and or compression as a starter?
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Old 04-26-2021, 03:55 PM   #17
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Default Mic bleed

Looking at the glyn johns setup pics: http://www.blaxploitation.com/drums/

They have the snare mic above centered. Wouldn’t that be in the path of the drummer moving to the rack toms?
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Old 04-26-2021, 04:10 PM   #18
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One way I vastly improved the quality of my drum recordings was to listen for phase problems through iso headphones while setting up the mics, starting with kick and mixing them in, one at a time.

You can even use the hiss of a cranked amp for this, but best imo is someone stomping the kick drum. It should stay full and natural sounding (just take off the phones to compare) with each added mic and only minor movements are required to affect it.

If you can position the mics with decent phase correlation from the start, a lot of problems go away. I didn't find it at all hard to hear once I listened, but it's helpful to remind yourself that it's all a balancing act; pushing countless tiny, independently trivial variables collectively in the direction of "good" sound. No rules (apart from physical laws) and a lot of gray area here so don't spend too much time. But do repeat the process until you're confident.

The only way to eliminate mic bleed on drums altogether is to record each one separately. Not a great way to get a natural sounding drum recording...

That said, I do tend to wrap some heavy fabric around the snare mic to minimize hi hat bleed because I find it very hard to work around when dialing in the snare sound. With close mics you can just gate them, but sometimes you have to get the cymbals quieter or further from the mics or the gating will be too noticeable.
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Old 04-26-2021, 04:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnydee View Post
Hi jerome,

Im just doing home recording of myself on the kit. So i should just keep it basic by recording, play with eq and or compression as a starter?
I am a firm believer that complexity is the mother of all farkups. For home recording you can't beat Recorderman. Saves a ton of setup time, interface channels, and equipment. You also get really solid results from it. I'd get the room setup right first so you're getting a good stereo field and you aren't peaking anywhere.

I always compress according to the mix, but you do you, and you'll be alright. Trust your ears.
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Old 04-26-2021, 04:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnydee View Post
Looking at the glyn johns setup pics: http://www.blaxploitation.com/drums/

They have the snare mic above centered. Wouldn’t that be in the path of the drummer moving to the rack toms?
Maybe if you're recording Tommy Lee, but generally, no.

The point of these types of two mic setups is to eliminate phase problems and provide a solid stereo image. That's why equidistant mic placement matters.
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Old 04-26-2021, 06:20 PM   #21
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Default Mic bleed

Looking at the glyn johns setup pics: http://www.blaxploitation.com/drums/

They have the snare mic above centered. Wouldn’t that be in the path of the drummer moving to the rack toms?
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Old 04-26-2021, 07:10 PM   #22
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^Yep...

For recorderman, one mic is directly over the snare distanced by placing two drumsticks end to end. Place one end of that on the center of the snare head, the other end pointing straight up is where the first mic goes, pointing down directly at the snare...

While maintaining the two-stick measuring device with the one end still on the center of the snare, tilt that back till it's over the right shoulder, that's where the second mic goes, with it pointed directly at the snare as well.

One important point of recorderman is those mics being the same distance from the snare, the original Johns method didn't care as much about that (hearing Glyn talk about it IIRC) but they had a nice huge studio room to work in. Recorderman differences are adjustments for smaller, non-ideal rooms. The image it creates is great and solid but it demands the drummer have good dynamic control since it doesn't afford control over individual kit pieces like toms.

Concerning that two-stick distance, the one over the right shoulder can be hit accidentally by the drummer so they have to be aware but I've not found it to be a big deal for the drummer to avoid. We could move them both a tad further out but that is taking them out of the "sound sphere" of the kit so to speak if we move them out too much. Nothing says that wouldn't sound good, but part of recordermans charm is the "where the drummer's head is, from within the kit" sound it creates.
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Old 04-26-2021, 08:16 PM   #23
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It's also important to pull a cable off the kick drum and get the mics positioned equidistant from both the kick and the snare.

Around 1:30 he shows the cable trick to get both mics equidistant from kick and snare with two triangles.

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Old 04-27-2021, 04:56 AM   #24
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It's also important to pull a cable off the kick drum and get the mics positioned equidistant from both the kick and the snare.

Around 1:30 he shows the cable trick to get both mics equidistant from kick and snare with two triangles.

Aaah perfect video. I don’t have matched overheads. Using a ride nt1 large diaphragm for overhead above snare and a sterling ribbon mic for the shoulder.
Thankx
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Old 04-27-2021, 06:17 PM   #25
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Aaah perfect video. I don’t have matched overheads. Using a ride nt1 large diaphragm for overhead above snare and a sterling ribbon mic for the shoulder.
Thankx
I first used my Rode NT1 vocal mic as an overhead as well, but after investigating RecorderMan setups bought a pair of the ultra cheep AT2020s like used in that video. They're not bad for $99 a pop and I wanted my vocal mic to stay setup for recording vocals.

Edit: I should note that I've gone to spaced pair for my overheads, and have three Sennheiser E604s on toms and snare now along with a Beta 52 on kick. I originally had no intention of using my little Ludwig Breakbeats kit for recording, but one day I had to put my Rode NT1 on them and try it.
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Old 04-27-2021, 06:48 PM   #26
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That's funny, I did the exact same thing, except for the mic brands. But I used to do Recorderman for years, and then Glyn Johns for a few years.

I've since switched to spaced pair and added mics for each of my 4 toms, as well as a bottom mic for snare (I always mic'd my snare top and kick. I can't imagine not micing those).

Having "too many" mics is better than having not enough. You can always not use any of them if you don't need them. But you can't add them if you don't have them and do need them.
Hehe, I have an 8 input Behringer UMC1820 and was only using 4 inputs for drums, then it became 5 with a room mic (my Rode NT1), and now 7 with the addition of the Sennheisers. So I had to buy a Behringer ADA8200 to add another 8 Midas mic pres to support the nasty habit I've picked up. I keep looking at used Rode NT5s now thinking that my AT2020s could become stereo room mics now that I have some inputs to burn again.
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Old 04-28-2021, 04:44 AM   #27
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Great thread to see what others are doing. We are all mic attics 👏

Learning a lot here. So much to know
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Old 04-28-2021, 06:23 AM   #28
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I like the spaced pair approach. Approach the drum set not from directly in front but from the left diagonally. Draw a line through the middle of the kit with snare centered and toms/etc more or less split down the middle of them. Put the pair of overheads up covering that. Measure to make sure the snare is centered. 2 or 3 drumsticks from the center of the snare to overheads (depending on how rambunctious the drummer is).

If the drummer plays with excellent balance (like many jazz drummers often do), I'll make the mix with the 2 overheads and kick and almost never touch the spot mics. Stuff that needs to rawk or have that bionic amplified PA drum sound usually gets the spot mics added.

If I have to dial in a live mix or broadcast mix, I'll pay attention to phase as well as I'm able at the moment. In the studio in post (weather recorded in studio or live), I'll align spot mics after the fact. Because you can.
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Old 04-28-2021, 07:44 AM   #29
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I've tried so many microphone setups in different rooms over the last 20 years. The conclusion that I've come to is that Glyn Johns and Recorderman are great if you have a great drummer. Somebody who knows, as serr stated above, how to play the drum kit as one instrument. They know how to control the volume of each drum and cymbal so that what the mics hear is what you want to record. This is great for jazz drummers, but if you have a solid heavy rock player who "self compresses" then half your job is done.


For everybody else, I insist on close micing each drum, and either a spaced pair or X-Y for overheads. Having a good hypercardioid on the snare so that the hi-hat bleed isn't a big problem (I love the Beyerdynamic M201TG).


I've had a lot of tracks come through for me to mix... especially this last year when people were stuck at home. This goes for anything, but especially these minimal microphone setups: the room can be the difference between a great drum track and crap.
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Old 04-28-2021, 07:55 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Abraham Liftin' View Post
That's good point. It's a big part of being a good drummer in the studio.

There's another thread somewhere about mic bleed, and I didn't want to derail it, but I was tempted to say that if a drummer is getting too much hi-hat in his snare mic, there's a possibility that he needs to hit his snare harder or his hi-hats softer, or both.
I frequently will re-take my drum tracks because I realize partway into the song that I'm having too much fun and not paying attention to how hard I'm smacking a hihat or ride cymbal.

I use an IR remote from my drums with a "Do Over" button that stops, does an undo recording, rewinds, and punches back into record. The moment I notice I'm leaning into the drums too much, I'll hit my do over button and try again.
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Old 04-28-2021, 08:38 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenkeith View Post
I love the Beyerdynamic M201TG
That's been my spot mic of choice for snare for 25 years.

Quote:
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I've had a lot of tracks come through for me to mix... especially this last year when people were stuck at home. This goes for anything, but especially these minimal microphone setups: the room can be the difference between a great drum track and crap.
Yeah, the home recorded stuff from last year...
iZotopeRX declipper has sure earned it's living!
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Old 04-28-2021, 04:19 PM   #32
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I've tried so many microphone setups in different rooms over the last 20 years. The conclusion that I've come to is that Glyn Johns and Recorderman are great if you have a great drummer. Somebody who knows, as serr stated above, how to play the drum kit as one instrument. They know how to control the volume of each drum and cymbal so that what the mics hear is what you want to record. This is great for jazz drummers, but if you have a solid heavy rock player who "self compresses" then half your job is done.


For everybody else, I insist on close micing each drum, and either a spaced pair or X-Y for overheads. Having a good hypercardioid on the snare so that the hi-hat bleed isn't a big problem (I love the Beyerdynamic M201TG).


I've had a lot of tracks come through for me to mix... especially this last year when people were stuck at home. This goes for anything, but especially these minimal microphone setups: the room can be the difference between a great drum track and crap.
Oh no �� I’m back to close micing. I still have my have a set of if cadd pro set I bought for $99 that I use on my quiet acoustic kit (aquarian superpads, zildjian gen16 low volume cymbals). The kit all mic’d just to I can get resonance from the drum shells to my ears with music. Really a nice setup for that.

So if I go with close mics on my acoustic kit with XY pair, should I still use them Rode NT1 and buy another or go with 2 small condenser mics. I use shure beta 58 for the kick, Sm57 snare). Can I incorporate the Sterling ribbon mic I’m using also?

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Old 05-03-2021, 11:54 PM   #33
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I've raised the cymbals,including hi hat as high as the drummer feels comfortable with to eliminate some of the bleed,at least reduce the loudness of the bleed.

those Sennheiser snare and tom mics are great as they are low profile enough to allow better positioning to avoid bleed.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:49 AM   #34
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I like the narrower image of ORTF for overheads, pointed at an angle over the drummer's shoulder so that the bass drum and snare are both in the centre of the image. It sounds the most like being sat at the drums for me, plus it has the bonus of a more defined rear null for live sessions over spaced pairs.

It's not something I hear many people talking about though.
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Old 05-05-2021, 11:25 AM   #35
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One of the best drum sounds I’ve gotten in recent memory was a stereo condenser on the floor slightly behind the drum throne. Nobody has let me do it since, but it was cool.
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