Old 06-26-2011, 08:38 AM   #1
Simon J.
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Default Vocals sound fatiguing

Here's the thing. When I listen to professionally mixed music, I can crank it as high as I want in my headphones and it does not sound fatiguing. It sounds levelled, smooth. Then I go record some vocals. When I listen to them on my headphones, they sound fatiguing even at low volumes. It feels like they fill my ears and my head in an unpleasant way. Ok, then I dig out my Modern Dynakiller and crank it up, and it helps to some extent. I take ReaEQ and scan for some trouble spots and that, to some extent, helps too, but anything I do is not enough. Then, out of frustration, I dumped all the other effects and I took Modern Seventh Sign, a leveling amplifier, and cranked everything in it as high as it would go. Of course, now the vocals sounded very distorted, but the fatiguing nature was gone. The vocals no longer filled my ears and head and I could turn up the volume on my headphones insanely loud, and even though the vocals were distorted, they sounded smooth and leveled.

Does anybody have any insight on this, can someone help me? I believe this is the one single biggest flaw in the stuff I mix. It was, I have later learned, a big problem on a previous CD I recorded and mixed and I would like to learn to fix it.

Link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14588641/03-...nder%20003.wav

Last edited by Simon J.; 06-27-2011 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:59 AM   #2
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Random blabla:

That sort of fatigue often consists of (too high) loudness (=too much compression) and too much presence, or too high loudness in the presence area. People often hesitate to cut off highs, especially the highs they get from microphones they bought for their cool highs and some compression and at the other end some mastering FX and you have a dentist drill track. Also, voices and instruments can have a fatiguing timbre in first place and that's when all the countermeasures are least successful. Distortion changes timbre (and texture), only pitch shifting etc. could give you a similar radical change.
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:51 AM   #3
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Did you distort the vocal when you recorded it?

Maybe the "nice" harmonic distortion form the plug in is masking
some odd order harmonics?
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Old 06-26-2011, 11:31 AM   #4
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It might help determine the problem if I just provide a link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14588641/03-...nder%20003.wav

Dry track, edited and melodyned, though. Recorded in a not nearly good enough room, maybe too close to the wall with a TLM103.
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:21 PM   #5
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It might help determine the problem if I just provide a link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14588641/03-...nder%20003.wav

Dry track, edited and melodyned, though. Recorded in a not nearly good enough room, maybe too close to the wall with a TLM103.
I notice even at low volume somehow this pushes my inner ear really hard. It seems like some high frequency is extremely present, but it does not sound like so, only the effect can be felt. Maybe a frequency above the human hearing range (20k)?

Edit: the explosive frequency might be created by reflection from that close wall, if it's a hard wall that 'd resonate high freqs, or something.
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Old 06-26-2011, 10:37 PM   #6
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I notice even at low volume somehow this pushes my inner ear really hard. It seems like some high frequency is extremely present, but it does not sound like so, only the effect can be felt.
Thank you, that is exactly the problem. Question is, is it fixable?

The mic was basically in a corner with two mattresses as dampening. But I was wondering whether it would be better to just put the mic in the middle of the room, disregard any dampening and such and still achieve better results.
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Old 06-26-2011, 11:42 PM   #7
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Singing into a corner? And would singing into the center of the room be better? I'd think so, yeah. But the vocal sample you posted sounds good. But if you do it again and sing into the center of the room, I'd like to hear it.
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:13 AM   #8
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To me it sounds ok, but somehow I have a feeling that your microphone is making some 15kHz hiss, which is usually hearable on a lossy low kB mp3.
Are you sure your microphone is not a USB one or similar?
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:42 AM   #9
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No, it's a Neumann TLM103. And the hiss is not really a problem, since it can be cut out. The real problem here is what PedroSobota spotted too. It's the ear piercing nature, but I am not sure what to do with it anymore. Citing the WDYRSLA thread, if you can hear the problem you can hear the solution, but in this case the solution really eludes me.

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Old 06-27-2011, 06:28 AM   #10
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It sounded pretty good for a dry vocal track. You may want to add a very subtle reverb or slap delay to just smooth it over a little bit, because it is VERY dry.
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:34 PM   #11
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I tried EQ'ing that out but as you mentioned no EQ will do. I'm guessing there might be some distortion being added to the entire frequency range, maybe caused by a reflection issue or malfunction in equipment. I'd try replacing equipment piece by piece to try and find one who might be having an electrical or some other kind of issue.
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Old 06-28-2011, 07:21 PM   #12
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Hey Simon, have just taken a little listen and a clue to me is the part at 13,14 seconds along in the clip - where its a bit quieter, is also quite a bit smoother and the harshness returns at the higher volume voice parts, which suggests to me slight clipping/signal hotness somewhere prior to the signal entering reaper.

either way it's strong in the 2-5khz ear split range and again at 12k - the big annoying one to me though is quite specific at 7K - notching that out a bit helped. these could indicate the voice is interacting with grill of mic or some reflective items in room as you up the volume on your voice. a hi-pass/lo-cut is also worth doing as there are a few 'wub' noises from the low stuff that you don't need.

backing off a touch, moving mic etc. (raise it a bit and point it down toward chest often removes some harshness, amongst a zillion other suggestions
all could help.

could also be that pre-amp gains in/ or out are not quite 'optimal' and are breaking up a bit at the higher levels.

anyway, sure you'll sort it, eq then some levelling gets it close, just need to get rid of the 'overload' bits.
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:45 PM   #13
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If that's the raw untreated vocal, then definitely it's distorted. It also sounds like there's some kind of a phasey thing going on, maybe that's the issue - kind of gives it a mechanical harmonic, like a machine whine or something.

I agree, it's definitely not pretty to listen to. It may be a number of issues, but I'd back the singer off the mic to begin with and take it out of the corner. There may also be something going on with the preamp/converter side that affects the output. Just throwing whatever I can think of at you. You never mentioned the pre. That's always a good place to look as well.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:49 PM   #14
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Thank you so much for your input everybody.

About preamps: I used an Alesis IO|26, so the gain knob is the only variable. I have recorded other stuff with it too and nothing indicates that there would be something wrong with the preamps.

I'm going to do some experiments this weekend. I borrowed a Rode NTK yesterday. If it's old enough some say it will kick even some Neumann's ass. I also got a 58. I'm going to try all of those and when I have decided which of them is best, I'm probably going to re-record all the vocals in this one song. Luckily I've only recorded this one song.

I believe it's possible that, in addition to the other things, I simply recorded the vocals too hot. It was interesting to learn from the WDYRSLA-thread that recordings can be clipped even though no meter or peak visualisation indicates it. It seems to be especially true with vocals.

I listened to some demo recordings of the same singer I did with a 58. Even they sound better. That's said something.
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Old 06-29-2011, 12:31 AM   #15
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From my experience working with or without a tube in the mic chain makes a huge difference, be it in the mic or in the preamp.

While I remember the NTK as a little exaggerated regarding the tube "effect", it could come out nice, depending on the voice and on the context. Don't let yourself fool by the obvious "tube presence" at first. It might be too much in the perspective of a mix – just like an exciter sounds pleasing when you insert it, only to be fed up with it 10 minutes later...

I think, too, that you can get great result from your 103, only avoid wrong placement and distortion in the mic itself (I read in its specs 138dB SPL max. That *should* be enough vor vocals).
Looking up "comb filtering" could help as well.
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Old 06-29-2011, 09:04 AM   #16
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I have this old rack mount bass pod that I I have used sometimes for putting down guiding guitar tracks. When the guitar volume is at "10" (like a loud voice would be) then the signal it records is painful for me to listen to. Whereas at "7" it is fine. This is also a digital signal with no tube in between.

In other words, I know your pain.
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Old 06-29-2011, 09:08 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kundalinguist View Post
I have this old rack mount bass pod that I I have used sometimes for putting down guiding guitar tracks. When the guitar volume is at "10" (like a loud voice would be) then the signal it records is painful for me to listen to. Whereas at "7" it is fine. This is also a digital signal with no tube in between.

In other words, I know your pain.
Does that mean that the preamp just can't take it?
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:50 AM   #18
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Does that mean that the preamp just can't take it?
It's just a reflection of how the unit manages clipping. Gracefully, or like grated cheese. I'd get that singer off the mic at high volumes to start.
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