Old 04-24-2012, 05:35 AM   #1
samsome123
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Default do amp simulators sound fake?

do amp simulators sound fake?

i am wondering how much better is the sound of real amps in recordings

whats ur opinion on this? thanks
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:57 AM   #2
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i am wondering how much better is the sound of real amps in recordings
Real amps sound 3,14159265(...) times better.
I measured it very, very accurately...
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:32 AM   #3
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I would say in all seriousness that amps sound better, but the margin is getting smaller. However, if you don't have a good acoustically treated space to record, going direct with an amp sim is a life saver. Do both at the same time. One track DI for an amp sim and one a mic in front of an amp. Now you have options.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:06 AM   #4
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alright..

also am wondering

why do people record amps when they play so loud?

can't they record them in low volume?

cause am in a flat for example...i would only be able to record at low volume if i ever did...
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:13 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by jax View Post
Real amps sound 3,14159265(...) times better.
I measured it very, very accurately...
That's surprisingly close to PI! One should examine this in detail...
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:29 AM   #6
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Real amps sound better until you record them digitally.

For recording loud overdriven amps in a flat, you'd probably want to use an 'amp cabin'. Billy Gibbons-style.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:34 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by samsome123 View Post
alright..

also am wondering

why do people record amps when they play so loud?

can't they record them in low volume?

cause am in a flat for example...i would only be able to record at low volume if i ever did...
Because many valve amps (and some solid states) reach their respective sweet spots right before the speaker starts to excurse. There are manufacturers who actually make devices to lower the volume on these amps because the amps don't have natural settings that sound good at those low volumes. It has nothing to do with wanting to turn it up to 11.

As far as whether amp sims sound good, I'm pretty sure every major amp sim has a demo of some kind you could listen to. Have you listened to a few of them? Did they sound convincing to you?
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:42 AM   #8
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To get a really awesome sound, you need to move some air, maybe even get some speaker distortion in there. So yes, crank the master on the amp. That's why there are now a bunch of 5 to 20 watt amps out there. It's not that you have to be loud, but rather that the amp is running at peak efficiency.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:24 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by samsome123 View Post
do amp simulators sound fake?
Bunch of dudes did a blind test some time ago

http://www.emusician.com/techniques/...vs-amps/141292

and came to the conclusion that "not really". Also there's plenty of great sounding albums recorded with those already. So I guess the solution is stopping worrying and recording stuff however you like.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:50 AM   #10
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So, which one of these two is a real amp and which one is amp simulation?

http://boray.bandcamp.com/track/jupiter

http://boray.bandcamp.com/track/wordless-envoy
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:20 AM   #11
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Didn't use to think so... but I've converted over. Some sound REALLY good and the convenience and ability to get sounds at lower volumes is too attractive.

These sound good to me:

http://www.scuffhamamps.com/product
http://www.scuffhamamps.com/user-sounds
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:42 AM   #12
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Real amps sound better until you record them digitally.

For recording loud overdriven amps in a flat, you'd probably want to use an 'amp cabin'. Billy Gibbons-style.
amp cabin? how does that work?
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:01 AM   #13
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amp cabin? how does that work?
I assumme that's something like this.. An enclosed cabinet with a microphone inside.

Of course, that's going to sound different from an amp in a studio/room... Better or worse is a matter of opinion & taste. Whatever set-up Mr. Gibbons wants to use is OK with me!
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:23 AM   #14
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I have used both interchangeably over the years.
In practical terms, if the guitar part is really exposed and fairly clean I suppose it is easier to spot an amp sim, but if you use distortion and the wall of sound approach to guitars, I think the answer has to be no.

But dont listen to us - go listen to the radio for a while and see if you can spot who is recording real amps and who is using an amp sim.

I can't usually tell the difference.

Unless it is an old fender amp not actually breaking up totally but just crunching in a nice clean-ish sort of way. Never found an amp sim that could do that convincingly.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:38 AM   #15
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I assumme that's something like this.. An enclosed cabinet with a microphone inside.

Of course, that's going to sound different from an amp in a studio/room... Better or worse is a matter of opinion & taste. Whatever set-up Mr. Gibbons wants to use is OK with me!
Yes, something like that. Mr. Gibbons apparently used a pretty large one stacked full of amps.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:58 AM   #16
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[...] In practical terms, if the guitar part is really exposed and fairly clean I suppose it is easier to spot an amp sim, but if you use distortion and the wall of sound approach to guitars, I think the answer has to be no. [...]
Unless it is an old fender amp not actually breaking up totally but just crunching in a nice clean-ish sort of way. Never found an amp sim that could do that convincingly.
I hardly ever use guitars or guitar amps (I did, a long time ago, but not with computers), but I'm not sure I completely agree. I am always on the look for convincing overdrive/distortion in the digital domain (I own Amplitube 3, as far as guitar amp sims go), but haven't found very much that can pass for the 'analog' quality that I'm looking for. More often than not, even when using more extreme amounts of overdrive/distortion, the way things break up just doesn't sound right at all to me.

I should haste to add that my most important reference material to be processed is not a guitar, but a TB-303 (especially with resonance fully open), and all the individual sounds of the TR-808 and TR-909 (so it needs to respond well to the entire frequency spectrum, from almost pure bass, to almost pure high frequency noise; a nice crunch on the mids only doesn't cut it for me).

So far, I only really like the overdrive in the UAD Moog Multimode Filter, and SoundToys Decapitator as a runner-up. One needs external hardware, the other an iLok dongle. Which is why I'm interested in threads like these, to see if any other good ones come up that I may have missed so far.
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:14 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by samsome123 View Post
do amp simulators sound fake?

i am wondering how much better is the sound of real amps in recordings

whats ur opinion on this? thanks
I think they many times sound less fake than the real thing.

Guitar rig 5 is an all around great plugin - it will give you great sounds for any guitar...

revalver MKIII.V is awesome but seems to favor metal

Amplitube always seems nice but doesn't seem to deliver with most of my guitars, always struggling to find a good sound with that one.
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:16 PM   #18
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I don't think you could tell the difference in any modern production. I mean, have you ever listened to a track and thought "Ah! Amp sim. So obvious."
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:37 PM   #19
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I don't think you could tell the difference in any modern production. I mean, have you ever listened to a track and thought "Ah! Amp sim. So obvious."
I was just thinking the same thing!

...When you listen to a CD, you don't have a clue if a simulator was used or what simulator was used, or what guitar/pickup/amp/cabinet/pedals were used. (Unless you have some "inside information", such as an interview with the artist/producer or if you happen to know the guitarist's "standard setup".) Even then, you probably don't know what effects the mixing & mastering engineers used.

The guitar player might not even know what the mixing engineer & producer have done, because the guitar is often recorded "live" and direct, and who knows what's been done to that direct-track in post-production!

Here's my 2-cents (and I'm not a guitar player) - If you are are in-love with the sound you are getting from your real amp, and if you can use it... If you have a "good room" and you are not bothering you neighbours or your mom... You probably won't be happy with a sim, because you are never going to get that exact same sound that you love, with a simulator. And, you are probably going to play better (and have more fun!) if you can hear yourself through the real amp.

If there are reasons you can't use your amp (at a volume where it sounds good), you may not have a choice, and you might be "forced" to use a sim.

Or, if you are not totally happy with your setup, and you can't afford that Marshall Stack (or whatever) that you really want, you will probably be happier with a sim.

If you are more-focused on the music and less concerned with the exact "tone", a sim should be acceptable. For example, a pro studio-musician might not be too concerned with the tone/character of the sound, as long as the producer is happy and his part doesn't sound "bad".

If you want to double-track or triple-track, and you want to use a different set-up each time, or if you want a different setup on different tracks/ songs, it's more economical & practical to own lots of sims than to own several amp/cabinet combinations.

And, it's a lot easier to try-out lots of different sims, than to go a music store and try-out a bunch of different amps/cabs. If you've got a computer-full of sims, you can try-out (and use) a new setup anytime, day-or-night.

Last edited by DVDdoug; 04-24-2012 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:50 PM   #20
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Nail on head award goes to DVDDoug.


No one can tell what you're using and very few punters could give a hoot.

In fact the MAJORITY of punters would'nt even understand the question.

Theres no good or bad tone..theres only a tone that either works or dosent.
Its you're job as the recordist/creator to use whatever means available to you to make the tune rock.Thats he bottom line.When money becomes no object you'll be paying Mutt Lange to record your guitars anyway.


FWIW..On a good day I get a beautiful sound from sims easily comparable to that from my Marshall..theres so much to it to get it right..so many variables...not least of which is the actual arrangement of the tune.Sometimes sims work..others they just don't cut it and the reverse is true of my amps..and I've no idea why.

I suspect humidity and isobars might be involved but I've no concrete evidence.Just speculation.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:56 PM   #21
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FWIW..On a good day I get a beautiful sound from sims easily comparable to that from my Marshall..

Funny you mention this. I swear guitars, acoustic and electric, and amps have moods and some days you might as well just leave them in the case, while Other days, no matter how bad you play, everything sounds brilliant.
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:08 PM   #22
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So, which one of these two is a real amp and which one is amp simulation?

http://boray.bandcamp.com/track/jupiter

http://boray.bandcamp.com/track/wordless-envoy
Nobody wants to take an educated guess? One of them is a Line6 Pod 2 and the other one is a real amp.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:02 PM   #23
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Funny you mention this. I swear guitars, acoustic and electric, and amps have moods and some days you might as well just leave them in the case, while Other days, no matter how bad you play, everything sounds brilliant.
Its the Isobars...I'm convinced of it
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:15 PM   #24
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Nobody wants to take an educated guess? One of them is a Line6 Pod 2 and the other one is a real amp.
I can't say I strongly prefer one to the other or that either sounds "fake". I'm gonna guess that Jupiter is the real amp but not because of any strong feeling; the most major difference about it is the sound of the string scraping. But there isn't much scraping in the other one to compare it to. Not being an A-B single variable comparison makes it harder to tell (and also proves the point that amp sims can be quite believable).
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:17 PM   #25
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Its the Isobars...I'm convinced of it
Had to look up Isobars, but yea, you could be on to something.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:34 PM   #26
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No such thing as fake anyway.

Just shit or not.

They called Elvis a fake.And he was the KING OF ROCK'N'ROLL FFS!
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:47 AM   #27
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Nail on head award goes to DVDDoug.
(QUOTING MYSELF EARLIER)"But dont listen to us - go listen to the radio for a while and see if you can spot who is recording real amps and who is using an amp sim.

I can't usually tell the difference."

So what am I, then? Chopped liver? (grin)

Ivan-the-Irascible


P.S. I still want a definition of `Demagogue` from a Canadian reader.....
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:48 AM   #28
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No such thing as fake anyway.

Just shit or not.

They called Elvis a fake.And he was the KING OF ROCK'N'ROLL FFS!

Costello? I thought he was a country singer these days....


(I`ll get me coat)
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:12 AM   #29
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(and also proves the point that amp sims can be quite believable).
Especially since Jupiter is the Pod!
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:58 AM   #30
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Especially since Jupiter is the Pod!
There you go.

But to be fair, you didn't provide an actual A-B listening test. Put up a version of Jupiter amped on real amps and see if anyone could tell the difference then. Not saying we could, but the test as provided doesn't prove that much. ETA: well, it proves what I originally said: that an amp sim can sound convincing, so there's that.

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Old 04-25-2012, 06:22 AM   #31
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They can sound the same/similar to each other that's for sure but they do "play" differently. A real tube amp has a push/pull way of playing with the player that may inspire someone to play better, or at least, the best he can. Uusally I can tell a difference in my recordings and sometimes the POD or whatever gets the nod for that particular part. But, after playing with "fake" amps for an hour or so I plug into a real amp and I'm blown away by how much better it is. Really hard to tell in a finished recorded piece though.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:35 AM   #32
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I posted up this little quiz a while ago. Very interesting. But very relevant to OP.

http://www.seymourduncan.com/tonefie...om-amp-models/

My own take away is that amp sims have arrived. I enjoy working with a real amp, primarily for the immediacy of messing with real hardware and listening to the cab crank it. But sonically, in a mix, I agree with others, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:44 AM   #33
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There you go.

But to be fair, you didn't provide an actual A-B listening test. Put up a version of Jupiter amped on real amps and see if anyone could tell the difference then. Not saying we could, but the test as provided doesn't prove that much. ETA: well, it proves what I originally said: that an amp sim can sound convincing, so there's that.
Well, the Pod can't simulate my Peavey ENVOY amp anyway so that would be a bit tricky for me
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:53 AM   #34
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Well, the Pod can't simulate my Peavey ENVOY amp anyway so that would be a bit tricky for me
Ah that's a fair point.

I do agree with Serenitynow, a bit different feel for players. I'm not really a player so that has never been a big factor for me.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:13 AM   #35
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I would say in all seriousness that amps sound better, but the margin is getting smaller. However, if you don't have a good acoustically treated space to record, going direct with an amp sim is a life saver. Do both at the same time. One track DI for an amp sim and one a mic in front of an amp. Now you have options.
This...
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:48 AM   #36
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Especially since Jupiter is the Pod!
Try me, Try me! I missed the test. I don't think I can necessarily pick it out, I just have a hunch I wanted to test.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:51 AM   #37
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Use an amp simulator with a reasonably good sound source that you can send to a small tube amp, say 20 watts. Turn the amp's clean channel volume full, or almost full. Stick an SM57 or an SM7b on the cab. Use a room mic about 3ft away if you got enough channels. Listen on headphones, set the mic position, the amp, amp simulator and mic input levels until it sounds incredible, then record each source to a separate track. When you mix this afterwards, it sounds real.

Use all the tools, enjoy!
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:03 AM   #38
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For bedroom recording artists...

modleling is getting better every day. Hardware wise the Fractal audio stuff seems to be king of the hill, line6 HD stuff is an affordable alternative. I've heard wonderful stuff software wise. The podfarm stuff can sound great, TH2 Overloud, Acmebargig Shred.. There are many more. I think if you find the right workflow and model for your taste, it is possible to get superior results from the modelers as it eliminates the environmental hurdles of mic'ing an amp in a room etc. I don't thing a statement like "amp modelers sound fake" is viable anymore. If you are talking about a Johnson J-station, maybe... but the current modelers are quite impressive.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:40 AM   #39
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Real amps sound 3,14159265(...) times better.
I measured it very, very accurately...

how did u measure that, so we can believe u
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:00 AM   #40
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Try me, Try me! I missed the test. I don't think I can necessarily pick it out, I just have a hunch I wanted to test.
Ok, here are two other ones for you:

http://boray.bandcamp.com/track/i-am-here

http://boray.bandcamp.com/track/how-can-you-sleep
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