Old 03-02-2017, 10:29 PM   #161
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I hope I'm not leading you down the wrong path here, but the main reason for suggesting the use of an Action is to make it as easy as possible to get into the ballpark of good gain staging (if it's easy, it's more likely to get done).

This is not a guideline by any means, but it is one possible way of doing things:
1) Set your items to a max peak of -6dB using "Xenakios/SWS: Normalize selected takes to dB value..."
2) Grab Sleepy Time Stereo Channel VU and place an instance on each track.
- If the level rises above +1dB VU, bring it down
- If the level doesn't rise to 0dB VU, leave it as is

Your items are now set to a max of -6dBfs (digital peak), and a max of +1dB VU, a good pre-FX starting point.

Now you can start adding EQ/Comp/FX and then balance out the tracks using faders and envelopes.
I just realized that one of the reasons why some of my tracks were so "hot" even after normalizing is that some of them I had boosted beyond -0 by using Shift + Mouse drag at the top of the item. You can't tell at a glance what was & wasn't changed, that way lol

I'm going to experiment with lowering to -15dB. Should be more than enough gain reduction?
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Old 03-03-2017, 06:20 AM   #162
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I just realized that one of the reasons why some of my tracks were so "hot" even after normalizing is that some of them I had boosted beyond -0 by using Shift + Mouse drag at the top of the item. You can't tell at a glance what was & wasn't changed, that way lol

I'm going to experiment with lowering to -15dB. Should be more than enough gain reduction?
How much is enough depends entirely on the material you are working with. Sometimes, if I'm mixing something tracked by someone else, I might have to go as far as -23dB if it's a particularly dense mix. You have to watch your meters and decide for yourself.

Tip: I find it much easier to work with the gain knob on media items, rather than the handle at the top. Go to Preferences>Appearance>Media and change "Item Volume Control" to "knob".
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Old 03-03-2017, 06:50 AM   #163
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I really think it's a lot easier to select all items then pull the item gain knob down until you've got a good amount of headroom on your master. Then use the item gain knobs to get your static balance (or instrument output for software instruments).

It's literally a second or two of "work".
This is 100% true, but the more tracks you have in your project, the further down that your Pre-FX gain on each item will have to be. That *could* mean that you're not driving certain FX plugs in the way they're mean to be driven (e.g. Saturation).

This thread primarily addresses when the track levels are too hot, which is why gain staging came up. Having the levels too low is the lesser evil (ok, not even evil) by far so I'm not in disagreement with your suggestion.
I think it would be better to turn down a gain knob on your Master in order to control clipping, then set to a max. of 0dB VU (or -18dB RMS) and -6dB Peak on items/inputs/VSTi so that your fx chain is receiving the expected signal strength.

Here's a gif that shows what happens when item volumes are used to control the Master level in a larger project:

The issue is that the levels are quite far below -15dB Momentary LUFS (similar to -18dB RMS or 0VU), and also quite far below -6dB Peak, so some plug-ins wouldn't respond properly to their levels.
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Old 03-03-2017, 06:56 AM   #164
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This is 100% true, but the more tracks you have in your project, the further down that your Pre-FX gain on each item will have to be. That *could* mean that you're not driving certain FX plugs in the way they're mean to be driven (e.g. Saturation).

This thread primarily addresses when the track levels are too hot, which is why gain staging came up. Having the levels too low is the lesser evil (ok, not even evil) by far so I'm not in disagreement with your suggestion.
I think it would be better to turn down a gain knob on your Master in order to control clipping, then set to a max. of 0dB VU (or -18dB RMS) and -6dB Peak on items/inputs/VSTi so that your fx chain is receiving the expected signal strength.
Sure, plenty of ways to skin this cat. Different approaches work for different people.

My preference is not to attenuate on the master, but have it fed by appropriate levels. As Karbo said, when I'm tracking stuff myself that's not a problem, it just happens as a natural part of the process. All bets are off if I'm mixing someone else's stuff though.

As for plugins that emulate some nominal level, they almost always have an input knob, so I use that. In the very rare case I'm using one of those plugins that doesn't, I insert JS Volume before it.

I really like to get a static balance before adding any plugins, but this is just personal preference. I do that with item gain knobs and then use the waveform zoom so that highly attenuated items are still easy to edit.
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:07 AM   #165
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How much is enough depends entirely on the material you are working with. Sometimes, if I'm mixing something tracked by someone else, I might have to go as far as -23dB if it's a particularly dense mix. You have to watch your meters and decide for yourself.

Tip: I find it much easier to work with the gain knob on media items, rather than the handle at the top. Go to Preferences>Appearance>Media and change "Item Volume Control" to "knob".
Have worked with both. Sometimes that little knob is harder to grab & turn than it may seem lol
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:10 AM   #166
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This is 100% true, but the more tracks you have in your project, the further down that your Pre-FX gain on each item will have to be. That *could* mean that you're not driving certain FX plugs in the way they're mean to be driven (e.g. Saturation).

This thread primarily addresses when the track levels are too hot, which is why gain staging came up. Having the levels too low is the lesser evil (ok, not even evil) by far so I'm not in disagreement with your suggestion.
I think it would be better to turn down a gain knob on your Master in order to control clipping, then set to a max. of 0dB VU (or -18dB RMS) and -6dB Peak on items/inputs/VSTi so that your fx chain is receiving the expected signal strength.

Here's a gif that shows what happens when item volumes are used to control the Master level in a larger project:

The issue is that the levels are quite far below -15dB Momentary LUFS (similar to -18dB RMS or 0VU), and also quite far below -6dB Peak, so some plug-ins wouldn't respond properly to their levels.
So the implications of this are what? Don't turn down one track that's kinda hot in order to stop the Master from peaking?
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:18 AM   #167
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This is 100% true, but the more tracks you have in your project, the further down that your Pre-FX gain on each item will have to be.
I agree but I've never really had a problem by just allowing them to fall into their natural -18 ish space. If there are enough tracks for that to sum up it isn't an issue because if recorded properly, I use the faders, I'd never mix with item gain though, that's an easy way to overcomplicate things. I always view item gain as the original recording level (which it exactly is until you change it) and once that is right I rarely need to touch them again.

The only exception as I said before is I have some pres without an output volume and those are the same ones I like to run a little hot for color, until I get an attenuator, I have to record those with peaks just under zero but bring them back down closer to -18 dBFS RMS when the recording is complete.
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:26 AM   #168
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I agree but I've never really had a problem by just allowing them to fall into their natural -18 ish space. If there are enough tracks for that to sum up it isn't an issue because if recorded properly, I use the faders, I'd never mix with item gain though, that's an easy way to overcomplicate things. I always view item gain as the original recording level (which it exactly is until you change it) and once that is right I rarely need to touch them again.

The only exception as I said before is I have some pres without an output volume and those are the same ones I like to run a little hot for color, until I get an attenuator, I have to record those with peaks just under zero but bring them back down closer to -18 dBFS RMS when the recording is complete.
For most mixes that's true, but if you've got 16 guitar tracks then things get skewy! I'd never do that on my own stuff though.

I totally get why you want to have the level displayed in items to reflect real-world values, but for me all I care about is being able to see the waveform clearly for editing.

Again, it's a case of trying stuff and seeing what sticks. There is no one correct way of working.
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:31 AM   #169
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For most mixes that's true, but if you've got 16 guitar tracks then things get skewy! I'd never do that on my own stuff though.
Can't you just turn the fader down like you would have in the days where you couldn't adjust 'gain' after the fact? Serious question, I've hit 50+ tracks a few times but would have to check them to see if I had this issue. I don't think I did though.

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I totally get why you want to have the level displayed in items to reflect real-world values, but for me all I care about is being able to see the waveform clearly for editing.
Though I do think it is informative, I do it more because it's easier to mix as you have the proper headroom and are already at a happy plugin level expectation. Obviously I can adjust the plugin I/O but I find I don't really have too if all the tracks are within a reasonable nominal level range. Just seems to make mixing life easier across the board (pun intended). If I edit, I just zoom the track vertically (I have a few shortcuts to quickly do this).
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:52 AM   #170
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Can't you just turn the fader down like you would have in the days where you couldn't adjust 'gain' after the fact? Serious question, I've hit 50+ tracks a few times but would have to check them to see if I had this issue. I don't think I did though.
When doing a static balance, I like to keep the faders at unity so they have the most throw range for automation.

In truth, when faced with that many mics on several layered guitars, I bounce them down (and probably throw away one or two of the mic channels) to single channels.

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Though I do think it is informative, I do it more because it's easier to mix as you have the proper headroom and are already at a happy plugin level expectation. Obviously I can adjust the plugin I/O but I find I don't really have too if all the tracks are within a reasonable nominal level range. Just seems to make mixing life easier across the board (pun intended). If I edit, I just zoom the track vertically (I have a few shortcuts to quickly do this).
Yeah, this works out for stuff I do, but not often when I'm mixing stuff tracked by other people.

Zoom is a big part of my workflow, right-click drag is marquee zoom for me so I can very quickly get down to precise editing level. however, when viewing the arrangement as a whole I like to be able to see what's going on in items. Also, when editing, even if I'm zoomed way in I prefer having more information to "chew on", so if waveform zoom helps with that I'm doing' it
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:59 AM   #171
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When doing a static balance, I like to keep the faders at unity so they have the most throw range for automation.
I do the very same thing. Establish a mix that is balanced with all faders at 0db, and then use the faders for adjustments as the song rolls. I've mixed like that as far back as the mid 70s.

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Old 03-03-2017, 10:00 AM   #172
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I do the very same thing. Establish a mix that is balanced with all faders at 0db, and then use the faders for adjustments as the song rolls. I've mixed like that as far back as the mid 70s.

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I'm a big fan of trim pots!
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:01 AM   #173
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I'm a big fan of trim pots!
But mine are like that at zero dB without the trim pots. Typically anyway, mostly due to my own recording habits, who knows what I'd do with someone else's poorly recorded tracks though.
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:06 AM   #174
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But mine are like that at zero dB without the trim pots. Typically anyway, mostly due to my own recording habits, who knows what I'd do with someone else's poorly recorded tracks though.
Same here, but lots of people out there record super-hot.
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:27 AM   #175
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Same here, but lots of people out there record super-hot.
<Looks around the room and raises hand>

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Old 03-03-2017, 10:29 AM   #176
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<Looks around the room and raises hand>

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Hehe

But hey, if you're getting the sounds you want, then balls to "correct procedure"!
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:41 AM   #177
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Same here, but lots of people out there record super-hot.
I did the first few years just because I simply didn't know and thought I was 'supposed' to use up all the bits - I at least have a little bit of an excuse though because that was in the more fixed 16 bit days but I don't have an excuse for not knowing that was the reason why at the time.
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:47 AM   #178
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Hehe

But hey, if you're getting the sounds you want, then balls to "correct procedure"!
Old habits die har^h^h^h. . . well maybe they don't in my case! <g>

I play with the trim on my outboard mixer till the peak light is just below ever illuminating, use a hardware compressor on the signal coming out of it, and set the master on the mixer to just under lighting a peak indicator in Reaper. The resulting wave image on screen is generally easy to see if any editing is needed.

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Old 03-03-2017, 10:50 AM   #179
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I did the first few years just because I simply didn't know and thought I was 'supposed' to use up all the bits - I at least have a little bit of an excuse though because that was in the more fixed 16 bit days but I don't have an excuse for not knowing that was the reason why at the time.
I guess I got in the habit of recording that way because I recorded 16 bit for a long time, and up in that range there is so little difference. Now I record everything 24 bit, but still do it like I did in the 16 bit days.

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Old 03-03-2017, 10:50 AM   #180
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I did the first few years just because I simply didn't know and thought I was 'supposed' to use up all the bits - I at least have a little bit of an excuse though because that was in the more fixed 16 bit days but I don't have an excuse for not knowing that was the reason why at the time.
Yeah, I started on cassette 4 tracks and then went to 16bit digital, so riding close to overload/clipping was needed. Going to 24bit digital was great because suddenly I didn't have to worry about it.
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:55 AM   #181
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Yeah, I started on cassette 4 tracks and then went to 16bit digital, so riding close to overload/clipping was needed. Going to 24bit digital was great because suddenly I didn't have to worry about it.
There's still the noise floor of the outboard gear, but you'd have to be pretty quiet to ever hear that, even peripherally I suppose.
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:00 AM   #182
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Yeah, I started on cassette 4 tracks and then went to 16bit digital
Exactly the same here. The initial switchover was to a Yamaha MD8 (MiniDisc) which I actually loved, I still miss it a little bit.
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:10 AM   #183
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Exactly the same here. The initial switchover was to a Yamaha MD8 (MiniDisc) which I actually loved, I still miss it a little bit.
I started out playing with my dad's stereo hifi Ampex and learned how to ping-pong record when I was 12 years old, then moved up to a Teac 3340S, then got a Tascam 80-8, traded it for an Ampex AG440B-8, and then sold the Ampex just as computer DAWs were taking hold. The guy who paid eight grand for my Ampex prolly was kicking himself when he found out what you could do with a computer and some DAW software.

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Old 03-03-2017, 11:11 AM   #184
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Exactly the same here. The initial switchover was to a Yamaha MD8 (MiniDisc) which I actually loved, I still miss it a little bit.
When I was in college we recorded our first album to digital - we had 2 minidisc recorders and a 2 input cassette 4 track, an SM58 and some cheap 58 copy. We'd record 2 tracks onto minidisc using the 4 track as a mixer (so hard-panned L/R), then we'd... wait, I don't even remember what we did, but it involved bouncing from one minidisc recorder to another through the 4 track, and only one person could monitor through the headphones while 2 people played overdubs. Turned out surprisingly good, and drums being only in one speaker really didn't matter as long as you didn't listen on headphones.
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:18 AM   #185
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I started out playing with my dad's stereo hifi Ampex and learned how to ping-pong record when I was 12 years old, then moved up to a Teac 3340S, then got a Tascam 80-8, traded it for an Ampex AG440B-8, and then sold the Ampex just as computer DAWs were taking hold. The guy who paid eight grand for my Ampex prolly was kicking himself when he found out what you could do with a computer and some DAW software.

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Holy crap all three of us are like brothers from different mothers. I started with a table top cassette with one of those little mics with the switch on it. My first overdubs were 'over the air' by placing one recorder close to the other with one playing and one recording and playing while that was happeing. That would have been in the 70s though, I want to think I got my first recorder maybe around age 10 or 12. Then it was just a plain ole cassette deck, no overdubs there, then somewhere along the way came the porta studios et al, then the MD8, then Logic for PC around 1999 or 2000, Nuendo when Apple bought Emagic and finally Reaper in 2009.

I still have a Teac 3330s in the closet.
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:19 AM   #186
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My first recording were literally bouncing between two boom boxes. They had line ins and outs, but of course the hiss added up quickly. Absolutely had to record as hot as possible in order to have any chance. Course at that time, noise floor was not my biggest problem.
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:23 AM   #187
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When I was in college we recorded our first album to digital - we had 2 minidisc recorders and a 2 input cassette 4 track, an SM58 and some cheap 58 copy. We'd record 2 tracks onto minidisc using the 4 track as a mixer (so hard-panned L/R), then we'd... wait, I don't even remember what we did
Yea, I still go back to some of those old recordings, they aren't necessarily award winning but it was amazing what you could pull off in contrast to today's world of 1 billion plugins, tracks and options.
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:24 AM   #188
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My first recording were literally bouncing between two boom boxes. They had line ins and outs, but of course the hiss added up quickly. Absolutely had to record as hot as possible in order to have any chance. Course at that time, noise floor was not my biggest problem.
OK four brothers from different mothers.
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:30 AM   #189
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Holy crap all three of us are like brothers from different mothers. I started with a table top cassette with one of those little mics with the switch on it. My first overdubs were 'over the air' by placing one recorder close to the other with one playing and one recording and playing while that was happeing. That would have been in the 70s though, I want to think I got my first recorder maybe around age 10 or 12. Then it was just a plain ole cassette deck, no overdubs there, then somewhere along the way came the porta studios et al, then the MD8, then Logic for PC, Nuendo and finally Reaper in 2009.

I still have a Teac 3330s in the closet.
Ah, those were the days! In between my transition to computer based recording, I bought a Tascam 234 right after selling the big Ampex 1" machine. I was doing midi sequencing and would stripe track four of the cassette with clock from a Sequential DrumTraks. Then I could compose everything but guitars and vocals on the computer, and have three tracks of tape that would play in sync with the midi sequencer.

You couldn't start in the middle of a song like you could with SMTPE, so you always had to play every take from the start. I'm so glad I bailed out of that expensive tape deck when I did though, because shortly after Amigas had Sunrise Audio multi-track coming out, and PCs were right behind them. Cakewalk Pro Audio was my first real computer based solution that could do both midi and audio recording.

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Old 03-03-2017, 11:32 AM   #190
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Cold you post a screenshot of SPAN next to your master meter?
I just "Cold" did New thread.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:33 PM   #191
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I'm bad at math---always have been---so to compensate for my shortcoming, I'm going to post that we shouldn't talk about math and everyone should just go make music.
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Old 04-06-2017, 04:16 PM   #192
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I just "Cold" did New thread.
Haha! Brrrr...
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