Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER Feature Requests

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-05-2007, 01:05 PM   #81
jaydottcomm
Human being with feelings
 
jaydottcomm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 667
Default yeah

now yall see what im saying..imagine that memory usage with more live plugs...item processing menu needs a makeover.
jaydottcomm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2007, 01:11 PM   #82
Jason Brian Merrill
Human being with feelings
 
Jason Brian Merrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern PA, USA
Posts: 20,466
Default

thing is tho, j.com --

i added the first instance and it put on 10 megs,

split it and it only added 2!

here it is 12 splits later, only 67 megs.

It seems there is some sort of memory conservation going on.

[IMG]http://img368.**************/img368/8918/13splitshi7.jpg[/IMG]
__________________
Beliefs do not require respect. People do.
Jason Brian Merrill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2007, 01:22 PM   #83
jaydottcomm
Human being with feelings
 
jaydottcomm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 667
Default yes

definately if you have the plugin inserted your memory will drain. Seems like the computer is processing the effect and it gets even higher when looking for multiple items. Probably will get higher with every split. Thats why it is "rudiment" to have per item FX. That way the plugin doesnt have to sit in the track sucking up CPU...Yet still applying the effect to the item.
jaydottcomm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2007, 01:35 PM   #84
jaydottcomm
Human being with feelings
 
jaydottcomm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 667
Default yeah

Now you know like i know Jason..You can very easily split items hundreds of time. As a matter of fact, I sometimes import beats from Ableton Live in 4 or 8 bar loops. Now lets say 12tracks of instruments all spanning 72 bars. Thats alot of splits. Ableton Live is the only other app i know of that doesnt have per item effects. So the plugins just sit in every track and the CPU meter goes high. If Ableton had item processing id use it to mix, but it doesnt and niether does reaper...So i been using Rearoute to Adobe Adition. I wish Reaper had this plug so i didnt have to go inbetween apps...By the way, what version of samplitude is that?
jaydottcomm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2007, 04:17 PM   #85
maa
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 1,276
Default

Samplitude is eating your memory because of the undo involved.
You can't use that as a measure because even that is configueable.
Do you have 'undo for vst' enabled for instance ?
maa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2007, 07:54 PM   #86
catscandal
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 177
Default

I get the impression there are two seperate topics being discussed here. Correct me if I am wrong but these two are not the same:

Feature request: per item fx-realtime as per Jason's screenies
Feature request: per item fx-destructive as per jaydottcomms 'item processing' like normalise.

I would like to add a +1 for both. I find the destructive makes for fun audio editing in Cubendo etc. I find the realtime from Samplitude is a killer feature for some purposes (especially for samplists).

Combine both of these options with existing 'apply fx to new take' and track fx and folder fx and there would be even more powerful/useful ways to combine and apply fx to suit any user/usage.
catscandal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2007, 11:02 PM   #87
jaydottcomm
Human being with feelings
 
jaydottcomm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 667
Default

"also reaper effectively has destructive processing with apply fx as new take." True, but you have to first "physically" insert a plugin into a track and then.........apply FX as new take. Then you Rinse and Repeat. That gets a tad bit exuasting doing that for every track over. What if you have 30 tracks????

"Feature request: per item fx-destructive as per jaydottcomms 'item processing' like normalise." is what were talking about. You can do the other in Reaper.

This thread is dedicated to applying an effect to an item without having to insert a plugin into a track.
jaydottcomm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 03:14 PM   #88
Jason Brian Merrill
Human being with feelings
 
Jason Brian Merrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern PA, USA
Posts: 20,466
Default

http://www.cockos.com/wiki/index.php/ReaperTodo

=== Things that are planned for REAPER v2.0 or early in the 2.x series ===

* Cubic envelope curves
* Higher quality resampling mode
* Per-item FX
* Track/mixer recv/fx/send/fxparm panels
* Multichannel media support, multichannel routing/export ability
* Track fader vol/pan grouping
__________________
Beliefs do not require respect. People do.
Jason Brian Merrill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 06:19 PM   #89
jaydottcomm
Human being with feelings
 
jaydottcomm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 667
Default yes

i hope that wikipedia exert was accurate. That means i dont have to wait long to use Reaper and Reaper only!
jaydottcomm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 07:01 PM   #90
Jason Brian Merrill
Human being with feelings
 
Jason Brian Merrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern PA, USA
Posts: 20,466
Default

im pretty sure its accurate

in other words, I didnt write it.

__________________
Beliefs do not require respect. People do.
Jason Brian Merrill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 07:19 PM   #91
pw3
Human being with feelings
 
pw3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 354
Default Credit where it's due

Jason -
I've been skimming the wiki. I think (hope) I speak for most, if not all, of us when I say thank you for all your effort on this. It sure looks to me like it's headed nicely toward the desired result.
Kudos to you.
pw3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 07:32 PM   #92
catscandal
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 177
Default

I am still confused...not clear whether the wiki entry or this thread are about 'applying' per item fx or running realtime per item fx. Which is it everyone wants? My understanding is that these are not one and the same and that JBM is talking about real-time (ala Samplitude) whereas jaydottcomm is talking about 'applying' fx to an item similar to 'apply fx as new take'. Or is the answer to have the realtime and then use 'apply fx as new take' to get the 'applying' result that jaydottcomm is after???
catscandal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 07:39 PM   #93
Jason Brian Merrill
Human being with feelings
 
Jason Brian Merrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern PA, USA
Posts: 20,466
Default

we are talking "realtime" ...

if you want to apply fx, just do that.
__________________
Beliefs do not require respect. People do.
Jason Brian Merrill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 08:30 PM   #94
jaydottcomm
Human being with feelings
 
jaydottcomm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 667
Default ok

What im hinting on is the way PTLE uses audio suite plugins. Which is applying the effect without inserting the plugin into the track and getting the same result as apply FX as new take. Every program ive used has this feature except Ableton Live.
jaydottcomm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 09:19 PM   #95
Bevoss
Human being with feelings
 
Bevoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 666
Default

+1 for Samplitude style object editing fx...I only want the plugin to work on a particular item...I also want to be able to remove or adjust it if necessary. I'll apply fx as new take if I need destructive editing.
Bevoss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 09:49 PM   #96
Jason Brian Merrill
Human being with feelings
 
Jason Brian Merrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern PA, USA
Posts: 20,466
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevoss View Post
+ I'll apply fx as new take if I need destructive editing.

exactly.

why not i say?
__________________
Beliefs do not require respect. People do.
Jason Brian Merrill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2007, 02:26 AM   #97
Art Evans
Mortal
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,656
Default

Here's a workaround for now, which might suit some people -

Set up function key F11 (say) with the following three actions -

Track - Insert new track
Item edit move items down one track
Track - view FX browser window [NOTE CHANGE OF ACTION EDITED AFTER ORIGINAL POST]

Set up function key F12 (say) with the following three actions -

Item - Apply FX to items
Item edit move items up one track
Track: Cut selected tracks.

You can probably see where this is going...

Due to the way that inserting a track works on the top track you need to have a blank track at the top of the project (so that any new track is always inserted below the current track).

Now select the item(s) to which you want to apply item effects. Ideally they should be on the same track. (If not, I leave it to you to discover what happens - not a total disaster but you'll need to drag-copy FX from one track to the others and you will have to hand-delete some resulting empty tracks.)

Press F11, and the items will be moved down onto a newly created empty track, and its FX dialog invoked. Set up the effect(s) you want to apply to the items in the usual way.

Once done, press F12 and the effects will be added to the items as new takes, the items will move up to where they came from, and the temporary tracks will be cut.

Voila. Yes, I realise this is does not allow you to change the FX settings afterwards, but you can revert to the original takes in the usual way and have another go if need be (or undo from the history). You might consider saving the FX rack that you create for the items so that if you have another go, you've got a starting point you can recall.

Last edited by Art Evans; 02-07-2007 at 05:49 AM.
Art Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2007, 02:38 AM   #98
Art Evans
Mortal
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,656
Default

I've done some more tests on this using clips on multiple tracks, and it does go a bit awry if there are more than a couple. Probably best to stick to items on one track.
Art Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2007, 04:12 AM   #99
Art Evans
Mortal
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,656
Default

Depends what you are trying to do, I guess. I have to say I don't really follow you. By "selection" do you mean "loop selection" and under what circumstances would that be useful?

I'm about to re-read the whole thread...
Art Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2007, 05:01 AM   #100
Art Evans
Mortal
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,656
Default

Well, we start with a proposal at post #1 to apply an effect to an item as if it were a track. Pretty straightforward in concept and not hard to imagine uses.

Downside of the proposal would appear to be that the suggested interface would only really work with one item at a time. I can imagine situations where one might want to apply an effect - in addition to the effects already on a track - to say every other item for some seconds. You might want in fact to actually split these portions off from a longer item, so you could add a splash of reverb to alternating drum hits, for example.

#24 starts talking about folder-in-folder. Presumably the folder would have the FX on it that apply to all the enclosed tracks, and you'd have one track for items only having the "normal" FX, and another track for every variation of the FX, with the items to be varied moved onto those tracks. Could be done now using normal sends if you could be bothered to set it up - folders might be quicker.

#45 starts talking about destructive application of effects to clips. I'm not sure I understand the post fully, but I think the idea is along the lines of the workaround routine I've suggested a few posts back in this thread (but done properly rather than as a workaround).

#47 introduces layers of complication related to freezing effects at a per item basis. Not sure it's actually that different from #45.

#49 discusses wholesale GUI changes, on the face of it not particularly related to the thread.

#74 raises the matter of how in this context you define a selection. Well, I can see no problem with regarding an item as a selection, (it's a selected area of a larger, or identical, file) and if you want to make a series of selections within an item, simply split it and select the alternate new items (or whatever).

Maybe one of the protagonists here could try my workaround suggestion in #99 and specify what's wrong with the outcome, setting aside the matter of how the outcome is achieved.
Art Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2007, 05:57 AM   #101
Art Evans
Mortal
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,656
Default

Here's a practical exercise - using the "Making me nervous" demo song.

I want to add reverb to the word "time" in its vocal track at the four places it appears, using the Ambience "papen bright and long" preset.

I also want to add a chorus effect to the rest of the vocal but not on the word "time".

I add a blank track to the project at the top.

Now I need to select the four places where "time" is sung. I do that by creating splits before and after the word each time, in the usual way.

I then click (ctrl/click) on those four little items and ensure that only they, and the track header, are selected.

Press F11 and they are dropped down to a new track. Select the Ambience reverb from the displayed FX browser by double clicking. Adjust as required if necessary, then press F12. The items are effected as new takes, moved back up to the original track, and the temporary track is deleted.

Now to add the chorus to the remaining bits, select all the other items on the vocal track (not the "time" bits) and press F11. Add the chorus effect. Note that you won't hear the original EQ from the vocal track as you do this - cos that EQ is not on the temp track you are working on - no problem, just drag it from the vocal track into the temp track, or (haven't tested this...) make the vocal track a folder track for the moment, and the temp track the last track in the folder, so you hear the combination of FX and can judge what you want. Then either unfolder the track, or bypass the EQ on the temp track you dragged in, and press F12.

Note that the reverb on the word "time" will be cut off at the end of the "time" item. Here, I find that I can drag the right hand edge of the "time" items rightwards and that will reveal the "hidden" part of the reverb, crossfaded into the next word. This might depend on your prefs.

Hope that example gives us a common thing to discuss, if required.
Art Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2007, 08:15 AM   #102
Jason Brian Merrill
Human being with feelings
 
Jason Brian Merrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern PA, USA
Posts: 20,466
Default

yes, this thread has been confusing, mostly because of miscommunication, and eager feature requesting building on the simple idea of per item fx. However, this point obviously has not been lost on Justin, as he sees the value of it, and will find a great way to implement it, as he always does!
__________________
Beliefs do not require respect. People do.
Jason Brian Merrill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2007, 04:05 PM   #103
jaydottcomm
Human being with feelings
 
jaydottcomm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 667
Default what???

Art......You should have wrote that out in brail. I probably would be more comprehensable.
jaydottcomm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2007, 05:01 PM   #104
Art Evans
Mortal
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,656
Default

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showpost...7&postcount=97 you mean? Should be straightforward, assuming you're familiar with assigning function keys in Preferences.
Art Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2007, 06:32 PM   #105
Bevoss
Human being with feelings
 
Bevoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 666
Default

That's gold Art! If I need per item destructive editing that'll work fine...yayy for macros!
Bevoss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2007, 04:44 AM   #106
catscandal
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 177
Default

Art the workaround is perfect for being destructive or as jaydottcomm described it "applying the effect without inserting the plugin into the track and getting the same result as apply FX as new take".

I still do not believe this is the central issue with JBMs original request which was for per-item fx that are as you say "to apply an effect to an item as if it were a track". That is, REALTIME fx. I believe Samplitude was the first to introduce the idea of the object editor that lets you put fx on an item WITHOUT APPLYING THEM.

Object based fx are an alternative to using lots of envelopes/automation.

If we had object based fx that worked in realtime on each object (like in Samplitude and now others I think) then the use of this feature in conjunction with 'apply fx as new take' (to which there could be a shortcut in the object fx dialogue) would satisfy those seeking the 'render' or 'bounce' or 'destructive' style of changing an object with fx as well.

An example of what jaydottcomm is describing from Cubendo goes like this:
- highlight item
- go to menu Audio~fx and there will appear all of your fx plugins to choose from
- choose the effect you want, select preview or just apply
= result is that the audio item you selected now has the effect applied, if you change your mind about the effects you have to undo the application of the effect or replace the audio item. If you split the item after this, both portions will still have the effect applied.

An example of what JBM is describing (with screenshots as usual) from Samplitude goes like this:
- highlight item
- right click select object editor
- insert a number of plugins as you would in a track
= result is that the audio item is now playing through the fx but you can always call up the object editor later and change the fx, in Samplitude I believe they only use CPU when they need to. You can remove the fx from the fx slots in the object editor etc. If you split the item, each item then has its own instance of the object editor with fx already in the slots.

So, referencing Arts example, the jaydottcomm request would mean:
- select each instance of the word "time" select the option to 'apply fx'
- select the reverb and hit apply
- this is a bit quicker than Art's proposed work around although not much and the F11/F12 way allows you to chain fx and use saved chains...

JBM, maybe best for you to use pictures to explain how this would work with object based fx.

Not that applying the fx wouldn't be great but the REALTIME object based fx in Samplitude give you a whole different way to work...somehow very creative and dynamic...I think this is what the whole thread is really asking for.
catscandal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2007, 05:34 AM   #107
Jason Brian Merrill
Human being with feelings
 
Jason Brian Merrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern PA, USA
Posts: 20,466
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans View Post
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showpost...7&postcount=97 you mean? Should be straightforward, assuming you're familiar with assigning function keys in Preferences.
yes, its crystal clear art thx
__________________
Beliefs do not require respect. People do.
Jason Brian Merrill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2007, 05:35 AM   #108
Jason Brian Merrill
Human being with feelings
 
Jason Brian Merrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern PA, USA
Posts: 20,466
Default

I dont know where i could put more emphasis on what i propose, i dont know what screenshots i could put up...

?
__________________
Beliefs do not require respect. People do.
Jason Brian Merrill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2007, 06:18 AM   #109
Art Evans
Mortal
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,656
Default

I think you described it perfectly in #1, mate.

But I can imagine it would require a fair bit of code all the way through chunks of the program to implement - providing for items to be handled almost like mini-tracks. I'd be surprised if it didn't come one day. Meanwhile, it looks like my workaround will provide partial help for some people if they don't mind the semi-destructive aspect ("semi" because as it's a new take you can at any time revert to the original).
Art Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2007, 08:19 AM   #110
HighVoltage
Human being with feelings
 
HighVoltage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 308
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans View Post
I think you described it perfectly in #1, mate.

But I can imagine it would require a fair bit of code all the way through chunks of the program to implement - providing for items to be handled almost like mini-tracks. I'd be surprised if it didn't come one day. Meanwhile, it looks like my workaround will provide partial help for some people if they don't mind the semi-destructive aspect ("semi" because as it's a new take you can at any time revert to the original).
yeah great workaround, thx.
HighVoltage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2007, 04:03 PM   #111
jaydottcomm
Human being with feelings
 
jaydottcomm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 667
Default hey

catscandal...first of all...you broke it all down like a big dog GI believe Samplitude was the first to introduce the idea of the object editor that lets you put fx on an item WITHOUT APPLYING THEM. (PTLE also has this. Its called Audio Suite.)
And on another note "But I can imagine it would require a fair bit of code all the way through chunks of the program to implement " I hear you. i dont do code myself so i dont know what all goes into that. But, the outcome would easily set Reaper above the Compitition.(Editing wise) Because you would have the most advanced routing and mixing. The Hybrid cursor is also another good idea(5 on the scale of 1-10 because you can work around efficiently) But the per item FX is a 22 on the scale of 1-10. It is a must have
jaydottcomm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2007, 06:47 AM   #112
Tus Tep
Human being with feelings
 
Tus Tep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Buenos Aires
Posts: 39
Default

+1 for per item FX !!
Tus Tep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2007, 04:24 PM   #113
sebas777
Human being with feelings
 
sebas777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,181
Default

One more idea:

a (foldable) list of all items of a track accessed from its FX rack, so you could immediately access their FX, simply by selecting an item from the list

(a similar option is a linked list editor for that track, but that's two separate windows).
sebas777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2007, 04:19 AM   #114
jm duchenne
Human being with feelings
 
jm duchenne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: France
Posts: 675
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
http://www.cockos.com/wiki/index.php/ReaperTodo
* Per-item FX
* Multichannel media support, multichannel routing/export
ability
I didn't know this !

Thanks Jason, now I know that my ideal DAW will come in a not so long future !
jm duchenne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2007, 04:16 PM   #115
historic stork
Human being with feelings
 
historic stork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 152
Default

FWIW, per-item aux sends would be a nice precursor to per-item FX. maybe even a little easier to implement?

i used samplitude for a few years, and eventually moved to using p.i. fx less and p.i. sends more.
__________________
Vista 64 SP1
Athlon xp 64 x2 4800+
2 Gigs DDR2 800 RAM
ECHO Audiofire 12
historic stork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2007, 04:30 PM   #116
sebas777
Human being with feelings
 
sebas777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,181
Default

Per Item sends is a great idea !

Actually how about a separate item mixer or just a "channel inspector" that could be docked and linked to a current item selection ?
sebas777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2007, 04:56 PM   #117
historic stork
Human being with feelings
 
historic stork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 152
Default

well, i imagine you could create sends to any channel, and have multiple sends per item (delay AND reverb, etc).

maybe you meant item inspector instead of channel? go-go item gadget!

in samplitude, really the only plugs i would use on a per-item basis were pitch correction tools. pitch correcting pays off very little from my experience. a bad note or two will always creep up, but a string of sour notes just begs to be re-tracked.

EDIT...active sends would need to me indicated on the items, viewed from the main window. either one icon would suffice, or send names.
__________________
Vista 64 SP1
Athlon xp 64 x2 4800+
2 Gigs DDR2 800 RAM
ECHO Audiofire 12

Last edited by historic stork; 10-21-2007 at 05:09 PM.
historic stork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2007, 06:32 PM   #118
Andi
Human being with feelings
 
Andi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 133
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
Nah, I like "orbit". Orbiting menu.

Actually, from a doable-conservative standpoint with this paradigm I don't see why you couldn't "orbit" every item on the toolbar, and make right-click simply "everything you want to select".

Hmm.

Actually, with the "orbit" concept you could iconize *everything* to what you wanted. Basically it would be "orbiting" shortcuts to the things you want to use the most; then, you could have a dedicated icon that gives you a menu for everything else.

Justin could make it a mode, ala F11:

F12= "orbit mode"

That would be massively different, massively quick once you sussed out what you wanted to use the most, and an attention getter for Reaper IMO.
If I've understood you correctly then that is a sick idea, and yes, if it was implemented then it should be near the top of the list of features!
__________________
-- Andi
[Reaper, Reason, Rap]
Andi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2007, 11:26 PM   #119
Tallisman
Human being with feelings
 
Tallisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the middle of the icecube.
Posts: 7,405
Default



++1



.t
__________________
.t

_____________________________
http://jomei.bandcamp.com <--My Middle Son.

http://tallisman.bandcamp.com <--Me.

"Excuse me. Could you please point me in the direction of the self-help section?"
Tallisman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2007, 09:31 AM   #120
Jason Brian Merrill
Human being with feelings
 
Jason Brian Merrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern PA, USA
Posts: 20,466
Default

indeed. great idea.
__________________
Beliefs do not require respect. People do.
Jason Brian Merrill is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.