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Old 04-12-2012, 09:45 AM   #41
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Bumping this one until it gets red in the face....


VCA groups explanation that even a 5 year can old understand

Master

Records the volume automation for the slave groups on its own track!!!!
Mutes/records the slave group
Coelesces the slaves automation

Slave
Does what the master wants
Does what the master wants
Does what the master wants


What part of "FOLLOW THE MASTER" did not compute?


Seems like in Reaper even though you set a master with all the options in group matrix a slave will not follow the master it makes no sense at all and anyone that thinks this is normal GET OUT of the basement look at any midrange console mixer in your face "VCA GROUP FADERS"



I still can not believe that slaves don't follow the master when we already have the group matrix telling us "Master" LMFAO


Any devs seen a studio? VCA GROUPS!!!


PUSH this up....

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Old 04-12-2012, 10:43 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by danfuerth View Post
[...]
Perhaps I should then bump this one until it gets purple in the face....

CV explanation that even a 3 year old chimp can understand (at least mine, who loves tweaking VCFs ):

VCA is only about applying control voltages (CV) to amplification (A).

Anyone who ever used an analog synth knows that tweaking a VCF (voltage controlled filter) can be at least as much fun as tweaking a VCA.

Thus, CV is more generally useful than only for controlling volume. Improving the system for automation of a tiny subset of parameters and ignoring all other uses is a complete waste of resources.

Source

Send signal (representing a parameter value)

Destination

Receive signal (setting a parameter value)

What part of "CV is more generally useful than VCA" did not compute?
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:45 AM   #43
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Updated the illustration a little to be a bit more obvious.

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Old 04-15-2012, 03:46 AM   #44
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Default transfer from tracker IID#2817

Quote:
Originally Posted by danfuerth
Bumping this up. I don't know about you but when a feature can be added that takes away the hands of greedy hardware companies and keeps my wallet a bit more stuff I am all for it. This VCA issue is a thorn.



Please, no bumpage without mission relevant info in the issue tracker. Keep issues in the database short and pointed and use the discussion threads for chatter.



thanks.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:20 AM   #45
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Updated the illustration a little to be a bit more obvious. [...]
Would it be useful enough when selection of master/slave tracks has to be done outside of REAPER? (i.e. not using grouping in REAPER)

If so, I think it is pretty easy to hack this functionality into REAPER using a simple OSC control surface configuration that only sends track volumes/mutes (with track number set to the same as the maximum number of tracks used in the project) to a virtual control surface, where multiplication is handled, then sent back into REAPER.

<puts creating PoC on to-do list>
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:54 AM   #46
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Default Midi too?

And, Reaper being Reaper, this VCA style should be able to apply to midi as well... ???

Just a thought.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:00 AM   #47
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Interesting on the midi part
A VCA for midi nice !!!
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:08 PM   #48
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And, Reaper being Reaper, this VCA style should be able to apply to midi as well... ???

Just a thought.
Numerology being Numerology, any CV <--> MIDI stuff is easy. Which makes it a great MIDI sequencer.

Can we now please stop discussing VCA groups as an isolated case, and start talking about a virtual CV system? Or do you want a half-assed implementation, REAPER being REAPER?
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:42 PM   #49
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The setup from start to finish should take less than 20 seconds.

Select tracks, create a group, name it, select a track, designate it VCA, probably from within the group creation/editing window, done.

The external method is a nice thought, but if it simply multiplies the time it takes to use the facility, it's not good enough for actual mixing work.

What do track faders currently do to MIDI items, if they're not triggering instruments on that same track ? Scale the velocity ?
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:58 PM   #50
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Okay, here's a simple proof of concept. Check out this little demo video (7.7mb .mov file, 1:51 min.), and if you feel adventurous, check out this .zip including all the stuff I used (save REAPER and Pure data extended ).

Since I'm using dummy tracks for each VCA slave track, the ease of setting it up will depend on what sort of scheme you'd use for pairing dummy track numbers to slave track numbers. One could for example use slave = dummy + 1 to have them show up in the MCP/TCP in pairs. I used a simple slave = dummy + 8 scheme here, with tracks 2 to 8 as dummies for tracks 10 to 16 as VCA slaves, track 9 being the VCA master (I skipped track 1, to have the master track in the middle for ease of illustration). If it sounds complicated, just watch the video.

It can of course be easily extended with mutes, sends/receives, whatever. So can we stop discussing VCA and start talking CV?

PS: oops, forgot to show scrubbing, which also works quite well.

(PS2: in the Pd patch, the stuff at the top are LFO's for testing, and the toggle button labelled MUTE doesn't do anything - it's just a reminder to add that, too. You can just rip this stuff out if you like, of course.)
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:55 AM   #51
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It would also be possible for the Pd patch to retrieve the current track selection from REAPER, and use some combination of REAPER actions via OSC to insert dummy track(s) in the proper place (whatever that would be) automagically, and perhaps move them around or put them in a folder track. That would require a bit more complicated patching, but nothing all too difficult, I imagine. It primarily depends on what your ideal workflow would look like, absent a native CV-like feature in REAPER. Suggestions for more kludges / hacks / experiments are welcome.

Anybody feel like playing with multiple levels of control? E.g. user an Emperor Track controlling all Master Tracks, a God Track controlling all Emperor Tracks? Or a Spartacus Track that keeps stirring up the Slave Tracks to revolt, introducing a bit of organic randomness, or making them do the exact opposite of what they're commanded? (Tbh, I don't really like to speak of "slaves" as long as *real* slavery still exists. How about Server/Client Tracks? )
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:11 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
[...] Select tracks, create a group, name it, select a track, designate it VCA, probably from within the group creation/editing window, done. [...]
Is the grouping and naming (both) necessary? Isn't one enough (i.e. prefixing slave track names with [CV1] etc.)? Doesn't grouping interfere with automation and such?

I'm wondering, because in my case, such things don't matter much. I typically take my time to set things up the way I want because I'll (re)use the same setup for much longer than I need to set it up. 20 seconds or less is not a requirement in my book - as a producer/musician, for me everything has to work either (preferably) in realtime with zero interruptions or artifacts, or I'm in non-mission critical slowmotion mode anyway. Quite different from post production and such. So I'd like to hear from other people what would make a workaround like this practically useable to them, or not.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:12 AM   #53
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oooooo Banned, you've given me some ideas of how to use my magic trackpad with OSC ...
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:36 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Banned View Post
Is the grouping and naming (both) necessary? Isn't one enough (i.e. prefixing slave track names with [CV1] etc.)? Doesn't grouping interfere with automation and such?

I'm wondering, because in my case, such things don't matter much. I typically take my time to set things up the way I want because I'll (re)use the same setup for much longer than I need to set it up. 20 seconds or less is not a requirement in my book - as a producer/musician, for me everything has to work either (preferably) in realtime with zero interruptions or artifacts, or I'm in non-mission critical slowmotion mode anyway. Quite different from post production and such. So I'd like to hear from other people what would make a workaround like this practically useable to them, or not.
That kind of approach will probably work great for folks who aren't on the clock.

Post production is high-demand stuff, and let's face it, Reaper has no automation system that facilitates that yet, so it's only a handful of people doing post production mixing with Reaper anyway at this time.

I love the approach with the PD stuff. That would be awesome for musicians who do need it, but the entry barrier is still a lot higher than it would be with a native, easy to spot and easier to support solution in Reaper itself.

The PD approach is in my eyes the next step up from the VCA request. It's a level of customization whose adoption rate will amongst other things, depend on how quickly a beginning/intermediate/expert user can set this up.

The SWS extension is only a download away and has a manual for example. What will it take to set this up ?

A Reaper OSC map file. A PD installation(free, easy). The PD patch. Some knowledge on how to run PD. More ? The more barriers we can cut down or even just short, the more useful this becomes to more people.

Does the Reaper Stash have an OSC category yet ?
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:30 AM   #55
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[...] I love the approach with the PD stuff. That would be awesome for musicians who do need it, but the entry barrier is still a lot higher than it would be with a native, easy to spot and easier to support solution in Reaper itself.
Of course a native solution would be best. But in terms of entry barrier resulting from difficulty to install, I don't see people having entry barriers installing e.g. plugins - which is often much more complicated. That is about the level of difficulty which I think is more than reasonable to assume that aspiring users should be able to handle it.
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The PD approach is in my eyes the next step up from the VCA request. It's a level of customization whose adoption rate will amongst other things, depend on how quickly a beginning/intermediate/expert user can set this up.

The SWS extension is only a download away and has a manual for example. What will it take to set this up ?

A Reaper OSC map file. A PD installation(free, easy). The PD patch. Some knowledge on how to run PD. More ? The more barriers we can cut down or even just short, the more useful this becomes to more people.
Yep, that's it basically. You don't even have to know how to set up MIDI or audio on Pd - since those aren't used it. Just the networking back and forth using UDP ports, but that's easy enough on a single system (no switch/router/wifi etc. - perhaps a pesky firewall here and there that still needs to learn how to behave).

It's only when one wants/needs to dig in to customize stuff that things become slightly more difficult. About as difficult as drawing that neat schematic picture that you posted above, I'd say. But with a bit more thought, design, and patching, things like that can also be made much more user friendly of course. Perhaps even headless.
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Does the Reaper Stash have an OSC category yet ?
The ReaperOSC configuration file format is already covered, and Pd patches are (like Jesusonic patches) plain text, with a .pd extension. Easy enough, I'd say. Designing a suitable UI for 'everybody' is the much trickier part.

Pd is of course not the only available route for this approach, of course. Apart from any procedure to select tracks, this is just a *really* basic OSC configuration used with some arbitrary external process doing a *really* small number of *really* basic operations (a single multiplication on each incoming track volume value with the incoming master track value, then some operation like adding a fixed integer number to another to change the track number from dummy to slave), which could be handled in a number of ways. I'm sure someone could make much more optimized implementation of the same principle.

Or a prettier one. For example, I could hack a slightly prettier version of this up in Max/MSP in a matter of minutes that people could use with the free Max runtime, but at the cost of customizability. For some, looks are an important entry barrier as well. But not for veteran REAPER users that believe in the power of the ugly-bearded yet almighty Jesusonic!

Speaking of which, if JS could send/receive OSC messages the way control surfaces can, it would be just a matter of inserting a JS plugin, I guess. Perhaps also ask Justin for some JS/OSC interaction while Jesusonic is getting love!
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:36 PM   #56
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Updated the .pd patch in the .zip (still same link as posted above, 24kb .zip): I added a bit of support for track mute toggling. Also added a line to the ReaperOSC file for to support track muting.

I also cleaned up a bit and removed the LFO's, since they were just for testing/playing, and not needed in any way for the virtual CV signal functionality. It's easy enough to add something like that back in if you want to play around.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:38 PM   #57
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Alright guys, I think I have the perfect interim, non-native solution to the whole VCA issue!
Banned, while I appreciate your efforts, I think there is actually an easier way.


So, we all know that VST plugins can send data to each other, as in the case of plugins like VCC, Waves NLS and even the old dB-D Dynamics Processor.
Many of you may also know about the S&M ReaControl plugins. TrackReaControl controls REAPER is a native way, just like a control surface.


My solution would be S&M VCA.dll

The plugin has 3 controls:
1) Volume offset - shows current gain (+/-)
2) Group # - 32 VCA groups should be enough
3) Mode switch - Slave / Master / Master+Slave


In use:
Create a blank track, insert S&M_VCA, set required VCA group#, set to Master
On one of the intended slave tracks, insert S&M_VCA, select same VCA group#, set to Slave, drag and drop to all other tracks required to be slaves.

Done!

What do we think, guys?
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:43 PM   #58
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[...] I think there is actually an easier way. [...]
What do we think, guys?
First of all, it should be S&M CV, not VCA. How many times do I have to repeat myself?

Of course it should be as simple as possible; we should look for the most efficient solution. But is dragging that many plugins not more work and overhead? One plugin should be enough, if it can do what a control surface can do.

At least not having to use dummy tracks would be a big improvement.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:24 AM   #59
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We actually already have VCA plugins like that.

Justin went and hacked together those JS plugins that anyone can use. It is a nice effort.

The crux is once again setup time and operation. It's a hack but not a workable system. If we used only this, we'd end up managing plugins more than we'd be mixing. Not good enough. Not fast enough.

That kind of compromise is not enough. You start with the real thing as a baseline.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:50 AM   #60
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We actually already have VCA plugins like that.
Justin went and hacked together those JS plugins that anyone can use. It is a nice effort.
Hey Airon,
I've tried those plugins and they're definitely not the same as what I'm proposing.

1) Justin's VCA plugins are an additional gain control. TrackReaControl actually 'jacks into' the volume fader meaning we would have visual feedback of current fader levels.

2) Justin's VCA plugins require a laborious setup procedure using REAPER's multichannel audio path to transmit the control signals. I am proposing this is handled invisibly and automatically in the same way that you can group controls across multiple instances of Slate's VCC (in any DAW). You would simply need to select which VCA group you wanted.


An added bonus would be the ability to rename each of the 32 VCA groups.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:00 AM   #61
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Quote:
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We actually already have VCA plugins like that.

Justin went and hacked together those JS plugins that anyone can use. It is a nice effort.

The crux is once again setup time and operation. It's a hack but not a workable system. If we used only this, we'd end up managing plugins more than we'd be mixing. Not good enough. Not fast enough.

That kind of compromise is not enough. You start with the real thing as a baseline.
They also won't do when both pre-fader and post-fader sends are used
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:37 AM   #62
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Indeed, it is not about audio levels, it's about the sliders (faders, if you will ) controlling the audio levels. The method I proposed would not need more than a single plugin, and definitely would not send audio abused as control signal all over the place.

JS seems out of the question for now (hopefully that will change at some point), because we can't use it for getting/setting track fader values (and other controls, i.e. mute button).

So, TrackReaControl does 'jack into' the volume faders - but does it also *receive* their values, like an OSC control surface would?
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:59 AM   #63
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So, TrackReaControl does 'jack into' the volume faders - but does it also *receive* their values, like an OSC control surface would?
Yup! You can try it for yourself, it's a pretty handy set of 3 plugins and I believe it's the perfect basis for temporary VCA solution I'm suggesting.
Hopefully we will hear back from Jeffos sometime. (I've PM'd him so please don't send him more PMs)
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:11 AM   #64
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Yup! You can try it for yourself, it's a pretty handy set of 3 plugins and I believe it's the perfect basis for temporary VCA solution I'm suggesting.
Hopefully we will hear back from Jeffos sometime. (I've PM'd him so please don't send him more PMs)
I've been meaning to look into doing that sort of thing myself too (if only to help compile some of the cool plugins for Macs that are still Windows-only - isn't this one of them?), but (probably unlike some of the people asking for VCA groups) I'm not in a hurry at all. I'm sure Jeffos will chime in whenever he feels like it.

In the end we all want whatever technology works best, right? Probably as close to a native solution as possible. But imho, we should do a *lot* more prototyping and testing before we ask Cockos, Jeffos or anybody else for a *specific* implementation. I still can not fully support this FR the way it is phrased now, I should probably even vote against it, as I still consider VCA groups as proposed a half-assed concept that will probably get in the way of something much better in the long run. Better be careful what you wish for, before you know you're stuck with it. (Remember people asking for Bezier curves? Well, they got them. And now they're stuck with smooth yet completely inflexible curves, unlike NURBS.)

Moreover, I don't think it is an urgent issue for the devs, as I have proven we can quite simply tackle this ourselves (unlike for example the showstopper MIDI issues, incompatibility issues with OS X Spaces, etc.), it is only about *marginal* usability improvements in the UI afaic. And I know many more pressing UI issues with REAPER than this one. So please bump the priority down a notch or two.

Btw, another thing that the OSC control surface route has going for it, is that it maintains its own state ('memory'), including selection (multiple) of track(s). That makes it very flexible for adding or removing slave tracks to/from a virtual VCA group as well. (The PoC I posted does not use any of that yet - I'll have a go at trying to do something better and more flexible next time I get around to playing with it).

I'm currently thinking about how best to handle multiple CV groups, and if tracks should be able to belong to multiple VCA groups (on the same hierarchical level). Ideas, anyone? How do analog mixing consoles with CV support handle that? And do they have CV for dynamics, eq, etc.? My virtual CV paradigm is still an analog modular synth, not a mixer console).
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:10 AM   #65
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Moreover, I don't think it is an urgent issue for the devs, as I have proven we can quite simply tackle this ourselves (unlike for example the showstopper MIDI issues, incompatibility issues with OS X Spaces, etc.), it is only about *marginal* usability improvements in the UI afaic. And I know many more pressing UI issues with REAPER than this one. So please bump the priority down a notch or two.
Of course I understand that bugs must have higher priority than feature requests, but my only gripe with REAPER is the way the beta testing is run.
Producing and mixing is my profession and I've been doing it for many, many years.
There are basic professional features missing from REAPER such as post-fader effect inserts and VCAs. Neither of these would be very difficult to implement.


Speaking of bugs/things-that-haven't-been-fixed-yet, do we all know about this one: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=88572
Just watch the video and pay attention to the numbers...
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:49 AM   #66
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First of all, it should be S&M CV, not VCA. How many times do I have to repeat myself?

Of course it should be as simple as possible; we should look for the most efficient solution. But is dragging that many plugins not more work and overhead? One plugin should be enough, if it can do what a control surface can do.

At least not having to use dummy tracks would be a big improvement.
If it does other things, then that's good Banned, but first and foremost it needs to be VCAs looking like VCAs, behaving like VCAs, set up with two or three keypresses like VCAs.

And it needs to be called VCAs so that people who are looking for VCAs and know what VCAs are, don't go looking round in circles as with many other things in REAPER.

I'm all for extended funtionality, in anything REAPERish (hell, I thrive on it, bring it on!), but you need to be able to select a track as a VCA master and then assign a bunch of other tracks straight to it (wherever they are in the MCP). On my analogue and digital consoles I hit " master assign", I hit the VCA master and then I hit a number of console channel assign buttons (thus adding them to the VCA master); I might select another VCA master or two and continue selecting or I deselect the "master assign" to finish.

This might take me ten seconds in total for a forty-channel board, and sometimes this is done halfway through the first song in the band's set (due to the incompetence of "organisers", we regularly don't get any proper soundcheck ). Any console channel might be assigned to several VCAs and the assignment won't necessarily be in any conventional "tree" hierachy.

I like your demo, I'm trying to get my head around how you implemented it and I'd like to get something running on my WS, but it really needs to be added to existing tracks (tell me if yours does and I have it around my neck). Once a project is up and getting in some kind of shape, the VCA masters need to be added to, (assigned) to the existing tracks.

Ideally it also needs to be native so that it can be integrated in the track manager and project bay

Fussy, moi?


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Old 04-17-2012, 09:04 AM   #67
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Of course I understand that bugs must have higher priority than feature requests, [...]
My point was a different one: we should distinguish between what we can make or fix ourselves and what we can't. Given what I consider to be some design flaws in REAPER, I consider the FR / bug distinction not practically useful at all. "It's not a bug, it's a feature."
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[...] There are basic professional features missing from REAPER such as post-fader effect inserts and VCAs. Neither of these would be very difficult to implement.
The exact same goes for some MIDI workflow showstoppers: making musical timebase work correctly on tempo changes must really be as simple as tossing out the current erroneous seeking behavior. But we can't fix that ourselves.

Moreover, while I agree that VCA-like mixer groups would probably be quite easy to implement, I disagree on drawing the conclusion the devs should just implement it then. Imho it seems not easy to design a good general solution, especially the UI part of it - and I have explained already why I think asking only for VCA groups is half-assed. Doing things half-assed is perhaps easy, doing it right isn't.

We all have our favorite issues, obviously. But we have a terrific dev team and a terrific community, where imho it makes most sense to let the devs focus on empowering the community with great platform-level stuff like JS and OSC. OSC hacks solving (or at least providing useful workarounds for) long-standing issues like MIDI controller feedback or VCA groups are just a few examples.
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Speaking of bugs/things-that-haven't-been-fixed-yet, do we all know about this one: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=88572
Just watch the video and pay attention to the numbers...
That example, much like in this VCA group FR, is something I can completely agree on in principle, yet again it focuses only on the mixer functions and ignores all similar problems. Such behavior is badly needed for every plugin's parameter, which should really not be that much harder to implement. Again, why ask for such a specific fix when the issue is *much* more general? (do you perhaps never automate effects and instruments?) If the devs would say it is easier to do for native parameters and give us only those for s start, fine. But let us not start there. We should aim for the highest!

I do understand that we all look at these things from our own perspective. I'm very much interested to hear from others with completely different workflows and opinions, exactly because I'm as guilty as anyone else of focusing on things from my own perspective. Please don't take offense at me sharing mine and keep enlightening me with yours.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:24 AM   #68
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If it does other things, then that's good Banned, but first and foremost it needs to be VCAs looking like VCAs, behaving like VCAs, set up with two or three keypresses like VCAs.

And it needs to be called VCAs so that people who are looking for VCAs and know what VCAs are, don't go looking round in circles as with many other things in REAPER.
Sure. On the Theme level, you can label it anything you wish. When thinking about what functionality we want, let's not dumb things down to the lowest common denominator. Also, many people may not know the term, yet would like the functionality.

People who know what VCA means but don't understand CV really need to go play with a Moog.

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[...] I like your demo, I'm trying to get my head around how you implemented it and I'd like to get something running on my WS, but it really needs to be added to existing tracks (tell me if yours does and I have it around my neck). Once a project is up and getting in some kind of shape, the VCA masters need to be added to, (assigned) to the existing tracks.

[...]

Fussy, moi?
No no, keep it coming! Thanks for your input, next time I'll try to focus on improving flexibility and speed, such as implementing quick track to group selection on an existing project. Should be quite doable, although a bit more complicated. But beware, it may be a while before I'm convinced that we need much more than a few PoC patches in Pd that we can use for prototyping while discussing the ideal implementation (I have many more interesting things to do, even with REAPER/Pd, such as improving my OSC<-->MIDI control patch which is now way beyond the PoC stage, becoming much more awesome than I had ever hoped. )

Can you elaborate a bit on how assignments to multiple VCA groups work on consoles? What are the interesting possibilities?
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:29 PM   #69
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I would prefer it dumb, with clever extras under the bonnet, not in your face obscuring the simple bit. VCAs are not complicated to set up or complicated in operation -the beauty of them on large consoles -simple, pure, raw control.

Don't confuse musicians who use DAWs with Sound Engineers who use DAWs (yes I acknowledge there is crossover), they have a different set of needs. We need tools, not toys to play with. I want my VCA with a comfortable, practical handle and a sharp, no-nonsense blade -no fancy trims or corkscrews! I've done CV and gate (then moved onto MIDI 20-odd years ago), VCA masters are a tool that just happens to use VCA circuits; the operation philosophy is the important bit, not the fact it shares the same modular circuits with an instrument.



Assigning a channel to more than one VCA is very useful. Typical groups are Drums, Backline, Keys, Brass, Vocals, BVs, Lead Vox, Everything But Vox.

Lead vox is in Lead Vox and Vocals, backing vox in BVs and Vocals. Drumkit is in Drums and also EBV, as are any brass, keyboards, etc. I can pull down the drums, or I can pull down all the band instuments; I can balance a show on two faders (EBV and Vocals), with balancing tweaks on the other backline groups and the main/BV balance. Having 20 or 30 channels on a fader and the opposing half dozen on another is sheer engineering nirvana.

And whatever I do, the post-fade send FX on each assigned channel maintain their wet/dry balance and pans (/LCR). I can also use VCA masters alongside Subgroups, which I might use for Kick and Snare compression and BV comps. For live (and with Airon, for Post) it's just the ultimate in control and easy setup.

The fact that none of the devs has picked up and included VCAs in REAPER is, I'm sure, an indication that they've never used them in anger. You cannot fail to be "converted" once you've been a user...


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Old 04-17-2012, 12:39 PM   #70
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Can you elaborate a bit on how assignments to multiple VCA groups work on consoles? What are the interesting possibilities?

You just assign a channel to more than one VCA master. If the Snare channel is at Fader -3dB on Drums at +5dB and EBV at -12dB, the net gain applied to the Snare channel is it's fader gain plus Drums plus EBV ie -10dB.


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Old 04-17-2012, 01:03 PM   #71
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You just assign a channel to more than one VCA master. If the Snare channel is at Fader -3dB on Drums at +5dB and EBV at -12dB, the net gain applied to the Snare channel is it's fader gain plus Drums plus EBV ie -10dB.
Ok, gotcha, thanks. Figures, with voltages. I guess getting the dB scalings exactly right will take some messing around, but it should be quite doable.

What do you guys figure would be a reasonable (default) number of VCA masters/groups, is 8 enough?
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:07 PM   #72
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This VCA Topic needs to get fixed. Let's not forgot my theory of "DO NOT give out vca groups in daws"

Just to prove my point take a look at protools 8 it did not have vca groups
on the normal version it was only available on the HD version( you guessed it hardware tied version).
Yet version 9 and 10 Avid got forced to add them to the native versions ( I guess too much competition) so anyone who can think a bit can see through the BS.
The hardware companies do not want VCA groups in Daws end of story.
It's a simple fact if you have VCA groups why would you buy a smaller console that had vca groups? Ya I thought so, with VCA groups inside the daw you would not need VCA groups on the hardware console, you could just use a normal fader console and use one of the faders as the master vca group controler ( put a white label saying "VCA master1)

That is my point.

Banned did provide the files for OSC and Pure Data audio software so I got that working
We are almost there, this stuff has to be native inside the daw .


Thank you all.

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Old 04-17-2012, 01:26 PM   #73
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[...] Don't confuse musicians who use DAWs with Sound Engineers who use DAWs (yes I acknowledge there is crossover), they have a different set of needs. We need tools, not toys to play with. [...]
Thanks for the elaboration on your workflow. Exactly the kind of stuff I like to hear.

Indeed we all have different needs. But I hope you're not implying that musicians only need toys and engineers somehow require superior tools - except comfy chairs perhaps.

The point that the tools you need are not like a musical instrument is taken. Of course the UI needs to be suited to different tasks, fair enough. But I still think most of the benefits you describe apply in a much broader context. For example, I use this virtual CV type of thing all the time with sequencing in Numerology, which does not even have any mixer like REAPER does. I'd love to see such a thing in REAPER, and not only for track volume faders. The same argument you guys make for 'why haven't they ...' goes just as well for parameter modulation / linking imho. It's the same thing, with a slightly different UI on top. Which may well be the hardest part, still.

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[...] And whatever I do, the post-fade send FX on each assigned channel maintain their wet/dry balance and pans (/LCR). I can also use VCA masters alongside Subgroups, which I might use for Kick and Snare compression and BV comps. For live (and with Airon, for Post) it's just the ultimate in control and easy setup. [...]
Specific to panning, sends/receives and subgroups, do you see anything I missed in my PoC? Is there something that REAPER still is not doing right? If so, what should it do instead?
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:48 PM   #74
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This VCA Topic needs to get fixed. Let's not forgot my theory of "DO NOT give out vca groups in daws" [...]
[OT] I just gave you a pass on that and let it slide.

But since you bring it up again, I'm sure you don't mind me discussing it a bit more: I still think that your hardware companies conspiracy theory is complete bullshit, and your example does not change any of that. Disregarding any patent claims, what you have left is a unsubstantiated and on the face implausible claim of a concerted practice based on ... yeah, where is the monopoly power actually coming from if there is no patent? Being an antitrust lawyer as well, I can only try to laugh even harder than I did before. How would these hardware companies (1) get in line among themselves to form a pact, (2) then jointly prevent further entry into the hardware market, (3) exert such power over the DAW software market that they can block some innovation by all incumbents and (4) prevent further entry into the DAW market? A snowball's chance in hell, if you ask me. And I *am* an expert on IP/antitrust claims.

But who cares, as long as we get it working in REAPER the way we want to.
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:44 PM   #75
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I LOVE this community!
Intelligent, friendly discussion and mutual respect. When someone disagrees, it's presented in a polite way. Three cheers for everyone!

Banned, you mentioned you think my proposed solution is not complete. I understand and agree completely that everyone should always strive for the best, not what's easy. Visit my website and read the quote at the bottom.

Can you please tell me what is missing from my implementation that is included in yours?
Is it a function or is it in the way you would use it?


I mentioned the non-scaling volume envelope bug and you said my request for it to be fixed only focuses on the mixer. You went on to say
Quote:
Such behavior is badly needed for every plugin's parameter
Can you please explain that?

To my knowledge, automation envelopes for plugin parameters are scaled correctly, since they are a simple value between 0 and 1 in 0.001 increments.


All the best,
Dax.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:15 PM   #76
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[...] Banned, you mentioned you think my proposed solution is not complete. I understand and agree completely that everyone should always strive for the best, not what's easy. Visit my website and read the quote at the bottom.

Can you please tell me what is missing from my implementation that is included in yours?
Is it a function or is it in the way you would use it?
Nothing is missing, as far as I can see (and if I understand correctly) - but I think "drag and drop to all other tracks required to be slaves" is overkill. And if I understand people like Airon and planetnine correctly, would probably render it useless to them for taking too much clicks (although an 'insert plugin in all selected tracks' action that has also been requested would greatly help there). Especially if you also have to go to all those plugins when you want to change the grouping for a slave track. So it should arguably just be easier.

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I mentioned the non-scaling volume envelope bug and you said my request for it to be fixed only focuses on the mixer. You went on to say
Can you please explain that?

To my knowledge, automation envelopes for plugin parameters are scaled correctly, since they are a simple value between 0 and 1 in 0.001 increments.
Internally, yes. But that also goes for track volumes - so I can also argue those *are* scaled correctly already. Plugins often present you with much more sensible, human readable values on their GUIs, and at least for some, REAPER is aware of them and can also provide these to a (OSC) control surface (I'm enjoying that very much, and rolling my own value rescaling / controller range rescaling features using them). For example, ReaEQ would show you a frequency value between 20 and 24.000, gain of -150/-inf. to +12dB, and bandwidth of 0.01 to 4 octaves for each band. You can of course see how your track volume parameter argument directly applies to the EQ band gain parameter as well. What I am getting at, is that it is hardly a problem unique to volume related parameters, but applies equally to all of them. Some other DAWs will let you see all those values in their automation envelopes as well. So, why not REAPER?

PS: and another cheer for your kinds words!
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:21 PM   #77
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Harrison does linking (what Reaper calls groups) and Remote Faders (Harrison's name for VCA faders).

You select the "Link" mode, select the "ATT"ention switches stuff on the channels you want to link, or the complete channels, then hit the Link mode switch again and you're done.

For Remote Faders it's similar. You select the Remote Fader, of which there can be eighty per ... I don't remember if it's operator or console section or something. You go in to an assign mode, select the channels again, and go out of the assignemnt mode. Quicker it almost cannot be.

Protools does it quite well, especially with an Icon attached. There, one VCA can simply be assigned to an existing group, which might not have any of their actual controls grouped together(or suspended).

Setting those up in Protools does take a little longer, but only slightly. On the other hand you get a nice group overview and group-by-group suspension.

What Harrison and Protools(with an Icon) have in comon is the VCA spill. On the Harrison, while in Profile mode, you can spill the slaves of the Remote Fader in the sweetspot section with the Remote Fader channels "ATT"ention button.

With Protools and the Icon, that's on a special button I don't remember right now. I think it's the track-type group mode you have to start from.

In that way, VCA faders are an access point to getting to its slave tracks quickly in larger mixes.

I'm sure live boards have a similar feature, spilling VCA slaves on to a section for fast access, and of course stepping back up a level to select a different VCA so you can access its slaves.


So quite often the sequence of events will be :

Show me all the VCA faders (function button in Harrison, Euphonix, Protools-Icon)

The VCAs show up across either a previously configured section (configurable number on Icons and where they start on the surface, about the same for Harrison)

Protools-Icon D-Control: You hit the "Spill" button on the VCA track. Spill bypass button returns to the previous VCA list.

Harrison: Hit the Profile button(pre-configured with sweetspot location on console and number of channels used), then the attention button of the Remote Fader, and you get the spill.

This is all a simple tool to control, access, dip, create alternate mixes for a lot of tracks.

Once the developers realize this, if they haven't already, I am actually curious to what level they can take it.

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Old 04-17-2012, 05:46 PM   #78
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Thanks for elaborating Airon.

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[...] You select the "Link" mode, select the "ATT"ention switches stuff on the channels you want to link, or the complete channels, then hit the Link mode switch again and you're done. [...]
So these ATT switches are for other controls than the volume fader, like EQ and dynamics processor controls? But they work the same way, otherwise? And "complete channel" is the entire set of such controls?

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[...] What Harrison and Protools(with an Icon) have in comon is the VCA spill. On the Harrison, while in Profile mode, you can spill the slaves of the Remote Fader in the sweetspot section with the Remote Fader channels "ATT"ention button. [...]
I don't think I fully understand yet what "spill" exactly does - but I might just have to carefully re-read your explanation a few times.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:09 PM   #79
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Wow, I really like the idea of placing the mixer into 'assign mode'.
Besides being a great solution for assigning VCAs, this would actually be an amazing augmentation to REAPER's current Grouping manager.

Three thumbs up!


(Damn, I hope Cockos are watching this thread)
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:35 AM   #80
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Thanks for elaborating Airon.

So these ATT switches are for other controls than the volume fader, like EQ and dynamics processor controls? But they work the same way, otherwise? And "complete channel" is the entire set of such controls?
Each control group (Aux, Dynamics, EQ, Fader for example) has its own attention switch. It's used for all kinds of stuff. Think of it as the equivalent of selecting a track on a console or a control section of a track. Actually each AUX and each EQ band has its own attention switch so you can link them across channels.

There's also a distinction between a simple click of the attention button and holding it for a few seconds.

For example, you can lock the sweet spot you define for a profile by holding the attention button of a channel that is within that sweet spot.

Quote:
I don't think I fully understand yet what "spill" exactly does - but I might just have to carefully re-read your explanation a few times.
Spilling refers to selecting either a member of a group or a VCA itself, and saying: Show me the "members of that group"/"slaves of that VCA".

And since VCAs can be controlled by other VCAs, you can drill down to your tracks very quickly with this.

One practical example is to have a bunch of effect tracks linked together by a VCA in groups of say four to ten tracks. You get a VCA for each of those little groups, and then have VCAs that control groups of those fx-group VCAs, and then a VCA for all the effects that controls those second-level VCAs.

So if you position your Big FX VCA Master in a favorable position or a customized fader view arrangement, you can drill in to the other VCAs real quick by, in turn, spilling the slaves of each VCA until you get to the audio tracks themselves.

It's a fast way to get to specific tracks without banking and scanning across the whole board.
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