Apple goes ARM Mac.

[Futur8me]

Would just like to know from Justin if Reaper will be slowly ported over to ARM when the new ARM Macs start to roll out at the end of this year.., I think Apple said its a 2 year gradual change to full ARM.

Apple are sending out Mac minis with ARM A12Z cpus to developers now to help port their software over.

Or do I buy windows pc in the future to be able to use Reaper?.

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[Justin]

We already support aarch64 on linux, so porting to mac/ARM should be easy (assuming Apple doesn't do anything stupid!). We're probably going to wait until the hardware is available to end-users before porting it, but it won't be long after that I imagine.

[Futur8me]

Originally Posted by Justin

We already support aarch64 on linux, so porting to mac/ARM should be easy (assuming Apple doesn't do anything stupid!). We're probably going to wait until the hardware is available to end-users before porting it, but it won't be long after that I imagine.

Thank you very much for the reply, this makes me feel a lot better!, I much prefer using macOS.., it is very exciting to see these changes with apples own silicon cpu for Macs coming soon)).

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[Ideosound]

There is still support for intel based macs for a while apparently. They can't just abandon their entire existing user base. There are also new intel based macs still coming out.

[Futur8me]

Yes.., its going to be very interesting to see what Apple brings out towards the end of this year.., will it be iMac Pro that has only the new intel cpus?.., or Mac Pro..?, will Apple bring out a brand new ARM Mac mini?.., will Apples own ARM cpu be a A14Z or 16X or Y..??, haha.

Maybe all the iMacs product line will get a total new redesign and a choice of ARM???.

Fanless iMac or Mac mini with an ARM cpu that has 12 cores or 20 cores???.


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[DarkStar]

All of your plug-in developers will need to do the transition too, won't they?

[Futur8me]

What do you mean by "your".

Everyone that wants to be on the new ARM Macs will have to eventually port their software, and there are already quite a lot of plugins available for iOS, you can use iOS plugins/software now with macOS.

macOS and iOS are now pretty much the same thing.

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[Smokehead]

Additionally there will be some sort of virtualization platfrom for existing software. Maybe this can be utilized for plugins too, at least for some time. It's a question of performance if this vitualization of plugins is fast/good enough for low latency audio.

[Justin]

A few thoughts:

• Plug-ins: It's unclear whether there will be support for in-process emulation of x86 code. Since they say that the translation can happen at install-time, it's possible that it will generate ARM binaries of plug-ins that can be loaded by ARM-native processes. Though even if that does happen, things with heavily-engineered copy protection will probably not function.
  
  
• Plug-ins (part 2): it will hopefully be possible to have reaper_arm include reaper_host_x86_64 to load legacy plug-ins (I suppose if this happens we'll have to get around to adding VST3 bridging support).
  
  
• While the ARM macs will probably be very good in terms of both performance and performance/watt, I wouldn't expect huge gains for most things (e.g. "20 cores fanless" might be a stretch).
  

[Smokehead]

Originally Posted by Justin

A few thoughts:

• Plug-ins: It's unclear whether there will be support for in-process emulation of x86 code. Since they say that the translation can happen at install-time, it's possible that it will generate ARM binaries of plug-ins that can be loaded by ARM-native processes. Though even if that does happen, things with heavily-engineered copy protection will probably not function.
  
  
• Plug-ins (part 2): it will hopefully be possible to have reaper_arm include reaper_host_x86_64 to load legacy plug-ins (I suppose if this happens we'll have to get around to adding VST3 bridging support).
  
  
• While the ARM macs will probably be very good in terms of both performance and performance/watt, I wouldn't expect huge gains for most things (e.g. "20 cores fanless" might be a stretch).
  

Especially the first part is something i'm scared about. Developers would have to make software translatable. That's an interesting aspect. Thanks for that point of view. Usually developers could try to 'recompile' their VST binaries on the new platform using XCode like Apple said they did (i'm not even sure about that..) as long as there aren't any dependencies. For Reaper itself it could be fairly easy to port if Apple does it's job right. It's already running on aarch64.


To point 3: Most applications won't need that much power anyway. A lot of software isn't even utilizing mutlicores/threads very well. There are more software-optimizations/code-improvements to be done before complaining about CPU power. For sure audio is in extensive use of multiprocessing but i'm not sure how much of an impact that will have on 'day to day' projects. There are other aspects which might be more of a bottleneck than CPU power these days. I personally didn't get to the limits of CPU power yet. Depends on the genre i'm working on. Mostly audio only and priniting virtual instruments as instrument tracks helps maybe...

[tzzsmk]

Originally Posted by Futur8me

Or do I buy windows pc in the future to be able to use Reaper?.

if Apple succeeds with ARM platform, Microsoft will inevitably have to push Windows 10 for ARM forward too...

[cyrano]

Windows for ARM has been around for a while.

It seems Apple's emulator on the dev ARM Mini's is already outperforming Win 10 native on Surface devices. At least, that could stir up things a bit.

Let's hope the new ARM laptops will have a decent keyboard

[maralatho]

Originally Posted by Futur8me

Would just like to know from Justin if Reaper will be slowly ported over to ARM when the new ARM Macs start to roll out at the end of this year.., I think Apple said its a 2 year gradual change to full ARM.

Apple are sending out Mac minis with ARM A12Z cpus to developers now to help port their software over.

Or do I buy windows pc in the future to be able to use Reaper?.

.

.

I lived through the 68k-to-PowerPC transition. Apple ranted and raved about how superior the PowerPC was to everything else in the known universe, spent millions on TV commercials illustrating how Power Macintoshes "smoked" Intel, and of course I and all my Mac-using friends drank the Kool-Aid and bought Power Macs. A few years later Apple switched to Intel. That's how Apple rolls.

[Sibben]

Originally Posted by maralatho

I lived through the 68k-to-PowerPC transition. Apple ranted and raved about how superior the PowerPC was to everything else in the known universe, spent millions on TV commercials illustrating how Power Macintoshes "smoked" Intel, and of course I and all my Mac-using friends drank the Kool-Aid and bought Power Macs. A few years later Apple switched to Intel. That's how Apple rolls.

PowerPC was much better when Apple switched. I think they used it for at least ten years. It was later overtaken by Intel so they switched. Now we are at a point where ARM makes good sense for Apple because of several reasons. So they’ll switch again.

It’s how they roll. They pick the tech solutions that fit their products and business goals the best. Pretty cheeky.

[cyrano]

Originally Posted by maralatho

I lived through the 68k-to-PowerPC transition. Apple ranted and raved about how superior the PowerPC was to everything else in the known universe, spent millions on TV commercials illustrating how Power Macintoshes "smoked" Intel, and of course I and all my Mac-using friends drank the Kool-Aid and bought Power Macs. A few years later Apple switched to Intel. That's how Apple rolls.

The situation is different, this time. With PPC, Apple depended on IBM for development and manufacturing the chips. When IBM couldn't meet goals on the G6, Apple had to switch.

This time, it's an Apple processor. Development is entirely in-house and production can be handled by any chip fab. Near Total Control. It's not even an ARM anymore, if you look at Apple's license for it. It really is an Apple processor.

These will perform on at least the same level as top Intel CPU's, but entirely fan-less. And, of course, that will result in thinner machines

Maybe they will come with special gloves to avoid cutting your hands while using them...

[Sibben]

It’s a very smart move indeed. It takes their vertical production model to a whole new level where they’ll control every aspect of hardware and software. It will allow them create an eco system that is even more integrated than it already is with devices sharing the same OS.

Cyrano, you mentioned the T2 security chip in another thread and how important that is to Apple. That got me thinking that maybe Apple is looking at the really long game here. Maybe that’s why they’re focusing so hard to brand themselves as the company that cares for privacy. Maybe the way Apple sees it, their competitors in the long run is not Microsoft or Google. It’s Chinese companies. They have have been rolling their own for many years when it comes to tech and they’re spending enormous sums on research and development. It’s just a matter of time before they gain enough momentum to steamroll the whole western tech industry. TikTok is just the beginning.

How can a company like Apple differentiate themselves and still stay relevant to consumers? What’s the one thing Chinese tech firms can’t touch them on, for obvious reasons? Security and privacy. As an American or European tech consumer in ten years you’ll have few reasons to buy a Google phone when Chinese companies sell better and cheaper phones with the latest technology. Maybe they’ll monitor you’re every private moment but we’re used to that from Google and Facebook.

But there would still be a pretty good reason to buy an Apple.

[cyrano]

Bingo!

Apple, in the long run, isn't even interested in producing the hardware IF they can control their "channel". Having their own CPU/TPM/DRM is the key.

Selling services is their long-term goal, cause that's where the real easy money is. And that includes, of course, financial services. To be your bank, they need you to trust them.

Tim Cook is a grocer, after all.

[Sibben]

Originally Posted by cyrano

Bingo!

Apple, in the long run, isn't even interested in producing the hardware IF they can control their "channel". Having their own CPU/TPM/DRM is the key.

Selling services is their long-term goal, cause that's where the real easy money is. And that includes, of course, financial services. To be your bank, they need you to trust them.

Tim Cook is a grocer, after all.

And who do you trust with your life savings? Tim Cook, the grocer or Xi Jinping, the dictator.

[cyrano]

I'm in security. I don't trust anyone, not even myself

[Sibben]

Originally Posted by cyrano

I'm in security. I don't trust anyone, not even myself

Lol.

So, perhaps then, if Apple controls the CPU and low level security layers they could even see other companies build compatible computers as well. As long as they have full control of what goes on you could see them growing their market share by allowing others to build simpler units or high spec niche products.

Just an off the wall speculation.

[fetidus]

I think Apple's move to ARM/Apple silicon is pretty good overall, and will ultimately result in some great machines in a couple of years, if they don't screw something up. I'm not an Apple macOS fan by any stretch (far prefer Linux), and I use Windows for most media production (film/video/post/music) mainly because I can build very powerful custom machines for far less money than Apple's computers, yadda, yadda. BUT I always have to keep a Mac around for client stuff (there's always that ONE client!), so I keep one toe in the macOS pond, and I'm optimistic about the CPU architecture switcheroo.

I feel that Intel has been dragging its feet for years, and I already decided that my next production Windows/Linux machine will have an AMD Ryzen with gobs of cores in it for sure... in fact, I may have bought my last Intel-based computer for the foreseeable future. I think it's about time to see Apple finally make this move.

I've been talking to some developer friends of mine and they seem fairly positive on the transition, at least for the long-term. Glad to hear Justin's thoughts on this too, and thanks for this thread. I do believe that some small indie and mid-sized devs will be taking their sweet time to optimize for Apple silicon, so depending on your usage scenario with DAW software, devices, drivers, plugins, legacy plugins, etc., and the typical macOS issues that crop up from time to time (which will be exacerbated IMO by Rosetta 2 in the early days), I think sticking with Intel for the next couple of years might be a good move, at least until the dust settles. I don't plan on being a guinea pig for these small indie plugins blowing up my client sessions. Apple has promised support for Intel for a long time, so for our kind of usage scenario, I can't see any advantage to jumping into ARM for a while yet.

So I actually just picked up another Macbook pro for an amazing discount recently -- should cover any DAW-related client stuff I have to deal with until I have to buy an Apple silicon machine in a couple of years. The deals out there there are really good right now BTW. I figure folks are asking this very Intel vs ARM question right now and with the financial uncertainties many people are facing with the pandemic unfortunately, there appears to be a good selection of Intel Macs on the market at good prices. For users like us that will likely be dealing with plugin and driver delays on ARM, an Intel Mac seems like the most logical choice right now, and then hold out for a couple of years.

My two bits only.

[maralatho]

More Kool-Aid?

[Sibben]

Originally Posted by maralatho

More Kool-Aid?

Apple’s net worth of one trillion dollars would suggest they do a bit more than whip out a great Kool-Aid. Though they’re pretty good at that too. Mac users generally pretty good at drinking it.

[shanabit]

G4, G5, MacPro

Im done, next will be a PC build here. $6,000 for a MacPro, um no. I went through the last PowerPC to Intel. Complete mess

[Sibben]

Originally Posted by shanabit

G4, G5, MacPro

Im done, next will be a PC build here. $6,000 for a MacPro, um no. I went through the last PowerPC to Intel. Complete mess

Yeah, that’s steep for a DAW computer. The new MacPro isn’t really a replacement for the old though. It’s a workstation aimed mostly at heavy graphics work for film studios and as such it’s very decently priced. Comparable PC workstations cost way more.

This is a little interesting. Seems Apple can push the prices down quite radically using ARM.

https://www.tomsguide.com/news/arm-m...ngly-low-price

[superblonde.org]

Midrange mac mini is all that is needed for dozens of audio tracks + a couple video tracks, all real time. That is well under $1,000.

Apple has Rosetta which is compile time built for the new processor, not run time. Plugin developers will rebuild automatically for ARM in their normal plugin update schedule within the 2-3 year window.

[Futur8me]

I just saw that the new VST3.7 SDK has been released with ARM support and Midi 2.0.

This is all good news)).

[Sibben]

Originally Posted by superblonde.org

Midrange mac mini is all that is needed for dozens of audio tracks + a couple video tracks, all real time. That is well under $1,000.

They’re excellent for DAW use!

[jamesattfield]

Originally Posted by superblonde.org

Midrange mac mini is all that is needed for dozens of audio tracks + a couple video tracks, all real time. That is well under $1,000.

Apple has Rosetta which is compile time built for the new processor, not run time. Plugin developers will rebuild automatically for ARM in their normal plugin update schedule within the 2-3 year window.

What exactly constitutes a 'mid-range' Mac Mini these days in terms of CPU, disk, ram?

[superblonde.org]

Originally Posted by jamesattfield

What exactly constitutes a 'mid-range' Mac Mini these days in terms of CPU, disk, ram?

mac mini i5, 16GB.

data drives will always be external so thats your later choice.

[GrumpyGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Justin

We already support aarch64 on linux, so porting to mac/ARM should be easy (assuming Apple doesn't do anything stupid!). We're probably going to wait until the hardware is available to end-users before porting it, but it won't be long after that I imagine.

Hey Justin, a sort of parallel question to this is "will Reaper continue to be developed for Intel based Macs"? I'm looking at needing to change my iMac and to be honest Apple's current pricing is ludicrous for such small internal storage so I'm looking at last year's model that still ships with the Fusion drive and is much more 'affordable' (as Apple products go). I'm trying to get a sense of which software developers will still recognise they have a lot of users still on Intel and not abandon them. when really their computers could be brand new.

[Meo-Ada Mespotine]

I think Cockos will have an Intel-based Mac-version of Reaper for as long as it can be build and Reaper doesn't need special things only later versions of the operating-system can provide.

Keep in mind, that there's even a 32bit-version of Reaper for Mac, though 32bit is totally end of life.

[Justin]

I think it's safe to say we'll keep supporting macOS Intel 64-bit for the next 10 years if not longer.

[cyrano]

Apple does seem to want to make it easy. It's in their own interest, I suppose.

RME has a beta USB driver for those lucky enough to already have one of the developer ARM machines. Seems to work well. Of course, firewire is really gone this time. Even a dongle won't allow it.

From what I hear, Rosetta is already fairly complete, working and reliable.

Of course, the omerta prevents much talk.

Apple's message clearly is: "Don't worry, be happy". :-)

[GrumpyGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Meo-Ada Mespotine

I think Cockos will have an Intel-based Mac-version of Reaper for as long as it can be build and Reaper doesn't need special things only later versions of the operating-system can provide.

Keep in mind, that there's even a 32bit-version of Reaper for Mac, though 32bit is totally end of life.

Originally Posted by Justin

I think it's safe to say we'll keep supporting macOS Intel 64-bit for the next 10 years if not longer.

Ah, that sounds like good news then. Thanks

[fetidus]

Originally Posted by Justin

I think it's safe to say we'll keep supporting macOS Intel 64-bit for the next 10 years if not longer.

Good news, and thanks, Justin.

[noisyfrog]

Wondering if anyone has any new thoughts after Apple's presentation today. I don't have a laptop right now so I'm planning on buying one ASAP and the new Apple Silicon M1 MacBook Air looks great IF I can run Reaper reliably on it...

[Smokehead]

Actually i'm a little disappointed. I hoped that there would be some nice package on 'day one'. Actually i'm not talking about the CPU only but for the whole notebook/computer.

A big No-No for me is the VERY restricted connectivity even on the mac Mini to only 2 TB3/USB4 USB-C slots. Even the mac Mini. After owning a Macbook and building up some infrastructure around it (Docks, Thunderbolt Devices, Monitor, ..) i couldn't set up my workspace using any of the new products. I need 4 TB3 ports to keep my stuff working.

That's simply not feasible for me anymore. I hope there will be more models in the new lineup in a few years. My guess - they didn't manage to build a USB4/TB3 Controller capable of handling 4 ports at a time into their new SoC approach. Let's hope for the best.

Currently i'm not impressed.

Software-wise it should be possible to run Reaper but i'd wait a few weeks until they've been shipped and more tested. There could be some major issues in software comaptibility and plugins etc. But when you plan to work a lot on the Macbook Air, consider using the pro .. I don't think the Air can keep up on bigger projects without thermal throttling. New chips, yes. Better power efficency, yes. But nevertheless, physics are real. Using a model with a fan will be better in any way we can think of (except for fan-noise) when it comes to computing power.

[fetidus]

I think we just have to wait until the real benchmarks come in soon, within the coming days hopefully, and of course real world performance by the early adopters. I agree there may be some compatibility issues, etc., but the developers I've talked with have been unusually bullish and optimistic about Apple Silicon, which really surprised me. One developer I know indicated a month or two ago that his app would be fairly easy to port. Obviously we'll have to see how the whole complex plugin ecosystem goes, but personally, I am pretty excited to see this shift.

If the Apple marketing parade even holds 75% true, these will be very fast machines. And I'm actually even more excited to see what developers will eventually do with the Neural Engine and audio apps. Right now a lot of focus has been on video/photo apps for ML, but looking forward to the creative uses for audio too.

And on top of all this, I'm positive about the pressure this puts on Intel and AMD. That's a good thing IMO.

[noisyfrog]

Yeah, it makes sense to hold off for a few weeks to see the first reports.

One of the appealing aspects of the new Air is the fanless design, despite possible throttling issues. Last year I was issued a 2018 13" Pro for work and the fan was on *all* the time even though I wasn't doing much on it. Granted a lot of browser tabs 😆 but still I didn't expect that to cause problems for such a supposedly powerful machine.

Eventually all that heat cooked the logic board and the display stopped working. Apple repaired it, but I was done with it and went back to a 2015 Pro that was better in every way.

My hope is that the M1 will be powerful enough not to cause problems like that, even w/o active cooling. My Reaper sessions are relatively lightweight so I don't expect it to push the processor that hard.

Could VSTs also run into issues with ARM?