Old 01-06-2016, 11:12 AM   #1
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Default VST2 or VST3?

Hi

I´d like to ask to more informed people what are the benefits of VST3 pluggin versions over VST2 in a 64bit audio environment.

Thanks.
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Old 01-06-2016, 12:08 PM   #2
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As far as Reaper is concerned, none really.
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Old 01-06-2016, 12:14 PM   #3
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Some background if you haven't already read it.

https://www.steinberg.net/en/company...gies/vst3.html
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Old 01-06-2016, 01:33 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by bladerunner View Post
Some background if you haven't already read it.

https://www.steinberg.net/en/company...gies/vst3.html
Thanks.
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Old 01-06-2016, 01:39 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by pcmusicpro View Post
Thanks.
Do note that's just marketing pitch by Steinberg, since they made VST3. Of course it will sound like it's much better, but especially in Reaper, it's not.

For Reaper there are far less benefits, sample accurate automation for example being the only one I can think of right now. Reaper can already be made to not process empty blocks for VST2, sidechain is no issue, etc. So benefits are truly minimal.

Of course, multiple MIDI ports are useful too but I sincerely doubt you need that if you don't already know it, since an extremely rare amount of plugins use it.
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Old 01-06-2016, 03:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenz View Post
sample accurate automation for example being the only one I can think of right now.
Except there doesn't seem to be any VST3 plugins which are actually utilizing that (correct me if I'm wrong - I'm just going by what schwa said).
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Old 01-06-2016, 03:12 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Except there doesn't seem to be any VST3 plugins which are actually utilizing that (correct me if I'm wrong - I'm just going by what schwa said).
Hahah, so the situation is even worse than I guessed? I was willing to believe SOME plugin developers will just bypass the whole sample accurate automation thing, but hmm, all...? (Well, perhaps all plugins schwa/Cockos has tested...)
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Old 01-06-2016, 03:22 PM   #8
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I can see how there aren't many advantages with Reaper, but the one thing I wondered about after reading the Steinberg article, was the issue of plug-ins only using resources when activated?
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Old 01-06-2016, 04:04 PM   #9
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There is no real advantage, but one major disadvantage . While a well-behaving vst can be installed wherever you want it, a vst3 uses hard-coded predefined directories.

This is 19th century programming style, and effectively disables any portable install.
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Old 01-06-2016, 04:19 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Studio Tan View Post
I can see how there aren't many advantages with Reaper, but the one thing I wondered about after reading the Steinberg article, was the issue of plug-ins only using resources when activated?
There is already a setting in Reaper "don't process silent tracks" which is the same thing. Albeit it will have a performance overhead on non-silent tracks (because it has to do this check). Most likely same with VST3 though, since it is impossible to know whether it is active or not without scanning the buffer...
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Old 01-07-2016, 01:54 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink99 View Post
There is no real advantage, but one major disadvantage . While a well-behaving vst can be installed wherever you want it, a vst3 uses hard-coded predefined directories.

This is 19th century programming style, and effectively disables any portable install.
Surely the portable problem can be bypassed with symbolic links?
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:30 AM   #12
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Sidechain...
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:41 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zappazapper View Post
Sidechain...
Already easily possible with VST2 in Reaper... since ages.
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:42 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by brynolf View Post
Surely the portable problem can be bypassed with symbolic links?
I think you can also move the VST3 folder elsewhere and put the path to that folder to the host, it should work regardless. At least with Reaper. We know that the likes of Cubase are more stubborn than that.
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:43 AM   #15
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Waves C6, InPhase, Vocal Rider? No sidechain inputs with VST2 for me...
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:48 AM   #16
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That's because they didn't code it for VST2 sidechain and are forcing VST3 on ya for that. Nonetheless, you can use Reaper's parameter modulation to sidechain any parameter, even if it doesn't have sidechain inputs, like those plugins you mention.
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:56 AM   #17
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Parameter manipulation is not sidechain... in some instances you will get similar results, but it's not the same thing... Neither C6 nor InPhase would work with parameter manipulation... I've tried...
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:17 AM   #18
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Well then, blame those plugin makers. VST2 works just fine with sidechain if the plugin has sidechain inputs. Most proper ones do. I don't use ones that don't. There you have it
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:19 AM   #19
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Acknowledged, but what ED was saying is vendors have implemented sidechains in VST2.4 plugs for a few years now (-example is Fabfilter Pro-C with sidechains in its VST2 version).

Edit: he beat me to it



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Old 01-07-2016, 04:34 AM   #20
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Default Sidechaining Waves Plugins

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Originally Posted by zappazapper View Post
Waves C6, InPhase, Vocal Rider? No sidechain inputs with VST2 for me...
Look at the attached screenshot of Waves InPhase. The "Plug-in pin connector" field (blue frame in the upper right corner) states "4 in / 2 out". This means that sidechain inputs are available.

Note that all Waves VST2.4 plugins that support sidechaining contain an [SC] button in the upper left corner. This button must be enabled for sidechaining.

In case of Waves VST3 plugins this button is not required. Sidechaining is enabled automatically as soon as the sidechain inputs are connected to the plugin.
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Old 01-07-2016, 08:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heart Doctor View Post
Look at the attached screenshot of Waves InPhase. The "Plug-in pin connector" field (blue frame in the upper right corner) states "4 in / 2 out". This means that sidechain inputs are available.

Note that all Waves VST2.4 plugins that support sidechaining contain an [SC] button in the upper left corner. This button must be enabled for sidechaining.

In case of Waves VST3 plugins this button is not required. Sidechaining is enabled automatically as soon as the sidechain inputs are connected to the plugin.
my VST InPhase doesn't have a SC button and the pin connector field says "2 in/2 out"... my VST3 InPhase doesn't have a SC button either, but the pin connector says "4 in/2 out"...

anyway i'm not going to get into a debate about the lameness of certain plugin developers over others... the OP question was about what VST3 does over VST2, and for me, i couldn't use sidechain waves plugins until REAPER supported VST3, so i only offer it as a fact of my own experience... otherwise, ya, there doesn't seem to be any difference between the two, but my limited knowledge of such things only allows me to assume there must be something different going on under the hood, so i use them...
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Old 01-08-2016, 04:18 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zappazapper View Post
my VST InPhase doesn't have a SC button and the pin connector field says "2 in/2 out"...
It is possible that the [SC] button has been added only recently. I have updated all my Waves plugins on December 1, 2015. The plugins don't tell me a version number, but the Waveshell version is 9.6.

I cannot remember having seen the [SC] button in my previous installation which used the Waveshell version 9.3.

So maybe Waves have added sidechain support for VST2.4 plugins only recently. In another thread of this forum I read that Waves announced that REAPER will be supported officially soon.
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Old 01-08-2016, 05:54 AM   #23
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I've done without VST3 for so long, that I don't really feel them necessary and never choose to install them (some installers give you no choice though). Also seeing the number of VST3 entries in the changelog it's clear some kinks are still being worked out.

Had Cockos not mostly worked around the VST2.4 limitations it might be a different story, but for now I'd stick with VST2.
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Old 01-08-2016, 12:19 PM   #24
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There's been a number of times when I've accidentally loaded a VST3 plugin in a project instead of a VST2 version and have noticed random crashes as a result. VST2 is rock solid here but VST3 seems to be somewhat flaky.
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Old 07-15-2018, 04:22 AM   #25
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Okay, this is a really old thread, so I'm assuming that first rate companies like iZotope have figured out how to code stable VST3 plugins by now.

I've got a concern:
1) Are most new VST3 plugins more stable now?

I haven't run into any issues with them, and I'm really wanting to clean up some space on my MacBook Air because I love that it's silent, so I can bring it into the booth when doing VO work. (I didn't even know it HAD fans until I launched Firefox, but how Mozilla got so crappy is a whole other issue!). Anyway, I'd love to get all my AUs an VSTs backed up and off my machine. Finally dumped Logic after having to work on an old project in it after using REAPER for a while. Every other DAW feels like a torture rack after I got REAPER dialed in!

Portability doesn't seem to be a big issue. I just did a test and VST3s will work in either /Library/Audio/Plug-ins or ~/Library/Audio/Plug-ins, so we should be able to put them anywhere and do a soft link to ~/Library/Audio/Plug-ins on the destination Mac to avoid authentication issues. It would be a cinch to write an executable shell script to do that with a double click and keep it in the portable REAPER folder. Windows users are probably out of luck on this one, but they're already used to doing things the hard way.

But, even just my VST3 folder is huge! I don't want to have to cart the whole thing around with a portable install. It would be great if REAPER had a "Package" feature. When I worked in graphic design, I loved that InDesign would do that. It would package all assets like fonts and images into a folder and change the references to the resources in the portable file to look in relative paths. Is there an SWS extension that does that already? I've watched just about all of Kenny's videos, and I've never heard him mention that.

Okay, sorry that last paragraph wandered off topic. I'll post the question where it should go, but leave it here too, so that people reading this thread can chime in on my feature request! (Assuming it's not already right under my nose somewhere.)
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Old 07-15-2018, 05:50 AM   #26
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Default VST or VST3 in REAPER?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmusicpro View Post
I´d like to ask to more informed people what are the benefits of VST3 pluggin versions over VST2 in a 64bit audio environment.
In case of REAPER, you should adhere to the following rules:
  • Waves: Use the VST3 version. Otherwise sidechain inputs will not be available. The VST2 version with sidechain inputs was available for a short time only.
  • Softube: Use the VST (=VST2) version. The plugin pin connectors do not work correctly in the VST3 versions. See: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=166559
  • TyrellN6 synth: Use the VST version. The pitch bend / modulation wheel does not work properly in the VST3 version.

In case of other plugin brands, it is your own choice.

If you work exclusively with REAPER, you may stick with VST to be on the safe side. VST3 versions sometimes do not work as reliable as the VST counterparts. But that depends on the plugin maker.

If you also use DAWs that rely on VST3 for sidechaining (e.g. Cubase), you may use VST3 in REAPER as well if a test shows reliable behavior.

It is of course possible to install VST and VST3 versions alongside, but I stopped doing this. It is easier to keep the amount of installed plugins to a minimum. In particular, you should not mix VST and VST3 versions of plugins made by the same plugin maker in one project. I noticed that Slate Digital plugins may crash in this case.

By the way: You can also make subfolders in the VST3 directory and sort the plugins according to category (Delay, EQ, Modulation, ...) or manufacturer. I use this method to organize plugins. But in this case you must move plugins from the main VST3 folder to the related subfolder manually after installing or updating a plugin.

Last edited by Heart Doctor; 07-15-2018 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 07-15-2018, 06:37 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
There's been a number of times when I've accidentally loaded a VST3 plugin in a project instead of a VST2 version and have noticed random crashes as a result. VST2 is rock solid here but VST3 seems to be somewhat flaky.

Yea, but that is Reaper specific. Seems to me Reaper is a bit incompatible with vst3, just a guess.. In general vst3 should be better. I know when I used vst3 in Cubase, it was better.
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Old 07-15-2018, 03:41 PM   #28
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In my experience I have just come across some stability issues with Vst3. I strictly use Vst2 now and I don't see those issues anymore. Whatever it means I don't know but I am fine using Vst2.
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Old 07-15-2018, 07:10 PM   #29
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I may be finally hitting a doozy of a compatibility issue in VST3. I've moved almost my entire template over to VST3 and its been working fine in multiple Reaper x64 versions up to and including 5.92, on Windows 10 x64.

Until I installed the latest Plugin Alliance consoles and Waves V10.

Suddenly I cant even get a session to load. Gets to the end of loading and disappears.

Been fighting it for about 4 days now. PA support had no ideas. Im hoping Waves support can sort it.

Completely removing Waves from my plugin path in any form, or completely removing Plugin Alliance bx_consoles, it appears to work.

Sigh.
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Old 07-16-2018, 12:01 AM   #30
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Forgive my ignorance, since I don't use those features. But some console and tape plugins have group capabilities. Are those available in VST2 in Reaper as well?


Quote:
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Already easily possible with VST2 in Reaper... since ages.
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:50 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Falcon View Post
I may be finally hitting a doozy of a compatibility issue in VST3. I've moved almost my entire template over to VST3 and its been working fine in multiple Reaper x64 versions up to and including 5.92, on Windows 10 x64.

Until I installed the latest Plugin Alliance consoles and Waves V10.

Suddenly I cant even get a session to load. Gets to the end of loading and disappears.

Been fighting it for about 4 days now. PA support had no ideas. Im hoping Waves support can sort it.

Completely removing Waves from my plugin path in any form, or completely removing Plugin Alliance bx_consoles, it appears to work.

Sigh.
Funny you should say that. I'm seeing similar issues and I just updated some plugins to vst3. Stupid me thinking "newer is better".

I'm also seeing the "loads the whole project and then crashes back to desktop" problem. In my case it would follow a hang when rendering a project. (Click Render and it just hangs, needs killing)
And only a reboot would help it. I will now try and see if I can easily switch my plugins over to vst2 and see if that helps.

Thanks for sharing!
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Old 07-16-2018, 03:15 PM   #32
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... some console and tape plugins have group capabilities. Are those available in VST2 in Reaper as well?
Group capabilities (such as in the VCC by Slate Digital) do not depend on the plugin format. They work with VST2 plugins just as well as with VST3.

The underlying mechanism has nothing to do with sidechaining. It also does not depend on the used DAW.
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Old 07-19-2018, 03:40 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Falcon View Post
I may be finally hitting a doozy of a compatibility issue in VST3. I've moved almost my entire template over to VST3 and its been working fine in multiple Reaper x64 versions up to and including 5.92, on Windows 10 x64.

Until I installed the latest Plugin Alliance consoles and Waves V10.

Suddenly I cant even get a session to load. Gets to the end of loading and disappears.

Been fighting it for about 4 days now. PA support had no ideas. Im hoping Waves support can sort it.

Completely removing Waves from my plugin path in any form, or completely removing Plugin Alliance bx_consoles, it appears to work.

Sigh.
Wow, Rusty. This really sucks! I feel for you. I'd have thought Waves would put out a pretty stable product. Especially for the price.

I kind of jumped the gun here and in an attempt to make room on the MacBook Air that I like to bring in the booth with me because of it's silence, dumped all of my AU and VST2 duplicate plugins from their working directories, packaged up all the installers and put them up on Google drive, which took forever. Looks like I'll be doing a lot of downloading and reorganizing since the consensus here is stick with VST2. (I use REAPER exclusively now. Used to have AUs for Logic, but since I started using REAPER, Logic feels like a prison!) I was feeling sorry for myself until I heard Rusty's issues. I feel for ya! You just know everyone is going to be pointing fingers at each other. Keep us posted. This sounds like a problem that could effect a lot of people. Good luck!
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Old 07-19-2018, 03:19 PM   #34
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So I was thinking about the fact that the Waves support guy on call with me the other day seemed surprised I was using StudioRack but have no SoundGrid devices. That got me thinking since StudioRack is in an old WavesShell 9.7, to try and remove it from the session.

So I got to a point where I could disable ONLY StudioRack leaving all other plugins in place in my session.

Like magic I could load session after session albeit with warnings about missing StudioRack plugins. Anecdotally load times seemed a bit quicker as well. I could also add the new BX SSL 4000 E and G Consoles and the slightly older BX Console E and Console G plugins.

I am cautiously optimistic and will attempt to load and do a rough mix tonight using BX SSL 4000 E consoles and NO StudioRacks!
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:58 PM   #35
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Some publishers like iZotope don't support their vst3 versions fully...so that's a thing. Do not use iZotope vst3s from a year to past that ago, don't know about newest stuff, but iZotope 7, every plug from around that time, is not stable, admittedly by their customer support.

This has nothing to do with format of vst2v3, just a note.
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:12 AM   #36
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Glad you got up and running, Rusty! It's always something simple like that, but why doesn't tech support know this kind of stuff. It's great that your figured it out, but it's really time we start holding software developers to reasonable standards. They are protected from liability because of laws passed when the industry of computing was new and experimental. At this point, we are all dependent on what we use to work. This is why I love REAPER. The developmental philosophy is great.

Thanks for the heads up on iZotope, jonboper. Managed to get most of my AUs and VST3s replaced with VST2s. Talk about software giants treating us like beta testers! When I went to retrieve my installers from Google drive, it wouldn't let me download them from my own drive! Just got caught in an authentication loop. Apparently this is a widespread issue, and the workaround is to create a sharable link and use that, but for goodness sake already! Google is pushing everyone to use their cloud based docs and storage so they can have the whole world by the short and curlies. The least they could do is make their data mining operations functional and attractive to people. I'd never count on them for any work in progress, but I figured they could at least handle some simple storage. This is why I love Cockos! (That just doesn't sound right!) They always exceed expectation.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:04 AM   #37
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Default How to use multiple VST3 midi inputs in Reaper

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Except there doesn't seem to be any VST3 plugins which are actually utilizing that (correct me if I'm wrong - I'm just going by what schwa said).
How WOULD a vst3 plugin use this in Reaper? I'm trying to figure out how you would map available midi ports on a reaper channel to multiple midi ins on a vst....

Haven't been able to track documentation down on that yet. It seems like the list of midi ports could change (at least vis-a-vis the order of them) and not sure how the plugin knows which midi port is which.

I'm looking into writing a midi input processor plugin in juce, and the ability to choose a port from its interface would be nice. Can the plugin reference them by name, or are they just random numbers in a list?

Okay, I should probably just go read the vst3 docs. I imagine they say something about it....

It's the only benefit I can see to VST3, except that support for VST2 is being withdrawn.
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:07 PM   #38
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interesting about Studiorack or grid or whatever its called. I have no related plugins, so when waves foisted it off on us I just left it nmot assigned to any of my authorisation devices. Glad I left it alone now!
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