>> v4: Mouse Modifiers

[run, megalodon]

Hey, sorry if this has been suggested;

What does everyone think about the idea of some kind of action that would allow painting of media items like the paint tool in the midi editor mainly for working with drum samples? I suppose it would copy the selected item and paint at every grid unit.

And maybe a drag to erase to go along with it?

Seems like a great improvement for working like this, especially if a grid display in the transport for easy adjustment is implemented as is being discussed in the the latest alpha thread, though I haven't tried it with 4 yet so I may be missing something.

[Reflected]

kinda missing...

mouse modifier:

Envelope point > Right click actions...

[AdamWathan]

Just brings up the context menu, there's no media item right click or anything either, I think it's by design not forgotten Right click drag to erase envelope points would be neat though like the MIDI editor!

[Reflected]

doule

[Reflected]

I prefer right click for envelope to insert + drag points like that:

[img]http://img809.**************/img809/9407/insertanddrag.gif[/img]

and Alt + RMB to erase/delete points.


but it doesn't matter, i just need that action and right click for modifying whatever...

[gofer]

For me shift + left click let's me do what your screencaps show. There used to be a preference to change whether a point is added where you click or on the segment. It must be somehow included in the mouse modifier section, but I am not sure where or what that would be.

I would assume that I would need to set that as an action for "envelope lane click" (because I am clicking in an empty space in the lane), but here no action is assigned for the shift modifier in that context...
My shift modifier for left click a segment being "Insert encvelope point, drag to move" is the closest guess I can give.

Boy, I hope I never need to help someone out later on with setting mouse modifiers. I find that whole thing highly complicated to manage and there are things (like this one) I just don't understand at all.

Aside, Reflected please consider to remove one of your double screencap. It's of no use to have it twice in two consecutive posts.
EDIT: Oh, ah It seems we got merged while I was posting. That explains the double . I feel all wiggly-wobbly now, but I like that

[run, megalodon]

Originally Posted by run, megalodon

Hey, sorry if this has been suggested;

What does everyone think about the idea of some kind of action that would allow painting of media items like the paint tool in the midi editor mainly for working with drum samples? I suppose it would copy the selected item and paint at every grid unit.

And maybe a drag to erase to go along with it?

Seems like a great improvement for working like this, especially if a grid display in the transport for easy adjustment is implemented as is being discussed in the the latest alpha thread, though I haven't tried it with 4 yet so I may be missing something.

Anybody? It'd be like the brush in Acid.

[tarnationsauce2]

Originally Posted by AdamWathan

Just brings up the context menu, there's no media item right click or anything either, I think it's by design not forgotten Right click drag to erase envelope points would be neat though like the MIDI editor!

It would be awesome if Right-click could be assigned to do ANYTHING Left-click can. This would make my workflow changes from other software seamless. Especially with item editing.
This combined with reavamped Reamote are my biggest wishes for V4.0.

[Mercado_Negro]

"Clear time selection when edit cursor moves on click in arrange view"

This option prevents the use of actions like "Split items at time selection" for Media Item left click context. Is there a way to solve this problem?

[airon]

Off the top of my head, you can use the middle mouse button to position your playhead and edit cursor anywhere in the arrangement without changing the time selection.

[airon]

As stated in this post in the v4 area selection and editing changes thread, here are some concerns over implementing modifications to the mouse modifiers and making the easy to engage and disengage.

That is the goal. To be able to turn such modifications on and off.

What we have for alpha 39 are actions that change the behaviour of certain bits of the mouse modifiers.

In favour of this approach stands the flexibility you gain.

The downside is that it's very time consuming to set up, cannot be given to any other user without changing all of their mouse modifiers, plus there is no way to simply undo these changes. A toolbar button can be tied to running a macro that contains all the changes one wishes to make to the mouse modifiers, but this macro cannot be a toggle and thus cannot be toggled on to activate the mouse modifier changes, and toggled off to undo those changes.

Of course one should ask whether toggling such complex things on and off is even desirable by enough users to warrant the effort to expand the user of mouse modifiers in such a way that they can be toggled on and off.

This actually can be done with two toolbar buttons or macros for every set of changes the user wishes to make already. It's just not all that user-friendly. For every change, a counterchange needs to be set up in the macro undoing undoing those changes.

My motivation for this discussion is that I'd like to prepare a button that toggles all the Area Selection functionality on and off one day, so not every user who wants to have it needs to go through the laborious process of setting it up by hand. An easy way to activate it must be made available when Area Selection is finally implemented.

Any ideas on how to achieve this without having to make a button to turn them off and a button to turn them on ?

[airon]

Follow up post.

The problem here is that using the current system creates a shitload of complexity. You may want to store the mouse modifiers states before you change them, but you can't selectively do that without adding a fuck-ton load of actions yet again because Reaper has no actions with parameters.

We could script our way out of the problem(if it is a problem) which is probably not easy at all and will increase the complexity through necessitating yet another place to find toolsets to load and activate as well as the extension necessary to do it. It seems better to keep this native where it's the quickest and probably most convenient way for a user to dig in to such innards of Reaper.

Now on to a possible method.

First way to do it

A new construct that presents a slot system of at least eight mouse modifier sets that can be toggled on and off.

The idea is to allow users to toggle multiple of them on and off, each of them with their own memory to save the modified states that will then be restored when the tool set is toggled off.

Problems will arise from this if users foolishly create tool sets that overlap a great deal, which can lead to one set being partially overwritten.

As an example lets assume that this string are our mouse modifiers "AAAA".

• Toolset 1 is invoked and writes "_EE_" and saves "_AA_" as the original state. The current state is "AEEA".
  
  
• It did not modify the first and last "A" and thus will not overwrite them when restoring the original state.
  
  
• Now toolset 2 is invoked and writes "B_FF". The result is "BFFF". The state is saves as a backup is "A_EA".
  
  
• Now we toggle toolset A off again. It will write "_AA_" to the mouse modifiers. The result is "BAAF".
  
  
• And finally we toggle toolset B off. It will write "A_EA".
  
  "BAAF" + "A_EA" = "AAEA" and that's not the original state but the result of logic juggling, and all because the user did NOT toggle the toolbars in reverse order of activation. In other words, a lot of fuckups can occur.

There are some ways to avoid this mess.

You could have Reaper only allow one toggle-tool set active at a time. This is the safest method but also places the most restrictions on the user. It will also drive users to plan their toolsets a little better though. This is what tool sets in Cubase do though we can do a lot more here.

Second, and this is more complex, Reaper could reinvoke the toolsets previously activated when one of them is toggled off. Plus, if the last is deactivated Reaper would always restore the one defined in the preferences.

Lastly it needs to be discussed how to actually make such sets. Here's a way.

Make a two-panel window with some buttons for Clear, Duplicate, Export, Import, Save and a dropdown menu for picking the slot to Save to in the bottom right.

The left vertical panel(layout like the custom action editor) holds an equivalent of the mouse modifier editor. The user can choose and modify the mouse modifiers. To actually have them be part of a set, he/she must drag'n'drop them to the right, where a blank or edited copy of the mouse modifiers sit.

That right-hand window with the edited or blank mouse modifier set can be exported or saved to the currently selected slot.

[Aeolian]

I have struggled with this myself.

Like i mentioned in another post, the whole problem (if it is a problem) stems from the fact that the mouse mod actions, whilst looking like they all "belong together", actually belong to different families (Track left drag, item left click etc etc) and the actions from different families will not ovveride each other.

Airons suggestion to have any mouse mod actions "toggle-able" ie only one mouse mod action can be activated at a time, regardless of family, looks very promising on paper ..... im thinking this could really work as a solution.

Till then, Ive set the main arrange mousemod toolbar icons, like this

track left drag - Marquee select items
track left drag - marquee select items and time
track left drag - draw an empty midi item

media item left drag - move item
media item left drag - copy item

toolbar right click ARM - Split item at mouse cursor
-This last one could be "media item left click - split item at mouse cursor", but that mousemod action doesn't exist.

Also, having "media item left click - delete item" and "media item left drag - delete items" would be killer.

[EvilDragon]

Devs, can we ask for another context for mouse configuration?


Would be awesome to have a "MIDI ghosted note" context. This way we could do various stuff to ghosted notes without necessarily switching to the background item in focus.


Who likes the idea?



Also, wouldn't it be cool to have a global opacity control for ghosted notes in Properties?

[lawrs]

Please add "Envelope segment > double click > default action > insert envelope point, drag to move"

Also, I'm not sure if this is a bug or feature, but in

"Envelope segment > left drag > alt > "insert envelope point, drag to move"

once clicked (don't release click and alt) movement is constrained to horizontal plane. If alt is released while still holding click, movement is free for vertical and horizontal.

Not sure if that's a bug though, because it kinda seems rather handy to have horizontal constrain, because when adding points, sometimes small movements might change the value.

[Win Conway]

Now we have mouse modifiers is there any chance we could get a negative mix modifier for the mixer ?

How it would work
Drag = how it is now
Drag + Modifier = When you drag a channel up it would actually lower every other channel in proportion rather than move the current channel at all, and the opposite for moving down.

This is such a useful feature for us negative mixers out here

[gofer]

Wouldn't that cause major havoc as soon as you are using subgroups or side chains or tracks that control MIDI CC7? I don't think it's that good an idea. At least it's not as easy as that.

[Win Conway]

No i don't see any issues with routing at all to be honest
It is only a complete inverse of the normal behaviour

[gofer]

Simple example:
I have a folder subgroup with my drum tracks inside.
I have another track outside that group selected and use your modifier.
All drum tracks are lowered plus the folder track is lowered as well. My drums get attenuated twice. Not what's intended. In that case I would only want the folder parent to be lowered.

Same problem with subgroup buses which are created per send routing.

I also wouldn't want a track that feeds a sidechain to be lowered in volume. And I wouldn't want tracks that control MIDI CC7 with their faders to be lowered. Too many exceptions. I'm sure there are more.

[Win Conway]

Well like i said , it would be useful for negative mixers
I guess not for you
No reason not to have the option though

I mean it could be made to work in your case easily by it only working on selected tracks

[gofer]

Don't know about negative mixers, but as said, even a single subgroup renders that method unusable, negative or positive. As soon as your project grows using that method hoses your relative volumes with a single drag.

[Win Conway]

Not at all
Like i said
If it was just on selected tracks it wouldn't affect anything you didn't want it to, so i don't really see your point ?

[gofer]

If you need to select the to-be-lowered tracks anyway, why not just select and lower them? Not clear what the benefit is then.

[Win Conway]

Yeah well it is obvious you don't like the idea, thanks for your input

[gofer]

Assume what you want. I'm giving feedback is all. The idea behind it is ok, but it's just not as easy as you'd like. There are pitfalls you haven't been thinking about and I'm telling you where I see them. Believe it or not, this is how ideas flesh out.

You are proposing to select a bunch of tracks, grab the volume fader of another one and modifier+move up to lower the selected tracks (while the fader you move on doesn't change value).

My response is when the tracks have already been selected, why not grab one of the faders of a selected track and lower them directly? The outcome is the same, but I don't need a new modifier and feel I do one step less (i.e. go back to the track I don't want changed). Where is the benefit of your method?

[bblue]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

Now we have mouse modifiers is there any chance we could get a negative mix modifier for the mixer ?

How it would work
Drag = how it is now
Drag + Modifier = When you drag a channel up it would actually lower every other channel in proportion rather than move the current channel at all, and the opposite for moving down.

This is such a useful feature for us negative mixers out here

I think this is a long lost style which few will 'get' unless they've gotten used to the technique and appreciate what it brings to the table.

It is hard to train yourself to think and mix that way, but it does have many benefits. I don't use it much in a studio environment but it became second nature when doing live stage mixes and live broadcasts.

That said, I do believe it would be tricky to implement unless it was limited to only items sending directly to the master output (folders and individual tracks), and optionally, returns for eko, reverb, etc. As long as ratios were accurately maintained between faders being reduced within that group it shouldn't be able to do any harm or cause an irreversible situation.

Maybe a special variation for use within folders only, for fine tweaking of a submix where overall gain correction is needed.

Neither function should probably be a 1:1 fader action, but scaled a bit so the effect of it is not abrupt unintentionally.

Interesting idea, though!

--Bill

[gofer]

Originally Posted by bblue

That said, I do believe it would be tricky to implement unless it was limited to only items sending directly to the master output (folders and individual tracks), and optionally, returns for eko, reverb, etc. As long as ratios were accurately maintained between faders being reduced within that group it shouldn't be able to do any harm or cause an irreversible situation.

Maybe a special variation for use within folders only, for fine tweaking of a submix where overall gain correction is needed.

There, we're talking It might work when only tracks which are routed directly to master (or the parent/sent-to track, in case of the special variation inside a folder or subgroup) are affected.

[bblue]

Originally Posted by gofer

You are proposing to select a bunch of tracks, grab the volume fader of another one and modifier+move up to lower the selected tracks (while the fader you move on doesn't change value).

Not necessarily. First, I don't think if it was true NM that selected tracks would need to enter in to it. Only tracks and groups (folders, top level) that have one destination. Secondly, there could be configured a percentage of upward or downward movement of the fader, relative to the reverse movement of the remaining tracks. It wouldn't have to be stationary, depending on the NM's style. Plus, as I mentioned previously, it's not likely you'd want a 1:1 ratio between the 'movement' of the fader relative to the movement of all the others, since tracks en masse (sic?) changing level can be heard more easily. This would matter most for live or on-the-fly mixes.

My response is when the tracks have already been selected, why not grab one of the faders of a selected track and lower them directly? The outcome is the same, but I don't need a new modifier and feel I do one step less (i.e. go back to the track I don't want changed). Where is the benefit of your method?

Indeed the results 'could' be the same, but it would mean more overall interaction of the mix engineer and the DAW to accomplish accurately. With NM, your movements would be small but the effect can be significant.

Some engineers tend to mix upward very aggressively, especially if the monitors happen to be set a little low. You can end up with saturated busses (more of an issue on analog equipment than Reaper), overdriven compressors or effects, etc. This whole approach (especially when made optional with a modifier key) helps keep that possibility in check. Psycho-acoustically, the results of NM versus standard upward mixing can be quite striking.

But it is an acquired taste (and skill).

--Bill

[Eyes]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Devs, can we ask for another context for mouse configuration?


Would be awesome to have a "MIDI ghosted note" context. This way we could do various stuff to ghosted notes without necessarily switching to the background item in focus.


Who likes the idea?



Also, wouldn't it be cool to have a global opacity control for ghosted notes in Properties?

+1

We need two new addons for mouse modifiers:

-Option for when note in background (not currently active in midi editor) is selected.

-Action to make selected notes active in midi editor.

Double clicking to make a channel active does not work effectively as a double click is always preceded by a single click, making this an ineffective option.



Also, opacity option would be brilliant.

[AdamWathan]

Would anyone else find it a lot more intuitive if there was an actual crossfade zone? So instead of modifier+dragging the top corner of a crossfade to move the crossfade, you could just click and drag anywhere inside the crossfade to move it?

A zone like this:

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by AdamWathan

Would anyone else find it a lot more intuitive if there was an actual crossfade zone? So instead of modifier+dragging the top corner of a crossfade to move the crossfade, you could just click and drag anywhere inside the crossfade to move it?

A zone like this:

looks nice

[airon]

A crossfade zone would do well.

You wouldn't wonder whether or not a fade exists at far-zoomed out views if such a colouring even simply hinted at it.

And enabling the use to edit the crossfade by simply click and dragging in the zone itself, well that just sounds so obvious, I wonder why this hasn't come up before.

So, you would have a crossfade context, and the fade contexts would stay the same.

You could move the crossfade by click and dragging it.
You could delete a crossfade by ALT+clicking it.
You could grow or shrink the crossfade by trimming its edges in or out. Whoops. That's another context.

What else would you do with it?

After all, this is probably a lot more intuitive than what we're doing right now, and often much easier to operate with a greater target area.

[AdamWathan]

To be clear the pink was meant simply to identify the zone I was referring to, in actuality there would be no pink, I was just trying to outline what I was proposing as a crossfade zone.

But yes, overall a lot more intuitive to just click and drag anywhere inside the crossfade to move it around than to have to modifier+drag the top left or right hand corner of the fade.

[airon]

The dragging on the edges is actually already there, I just kept telling my sleep-deprived self.

The actual advantage is that you can do stuff right there is such an obvious intuitive way, using already established methods, like ALT+click.

Hell, you could probably introduce a method that cycles through the crossfade types. It is then a matter of determining the most efficient and most used order. I always change between linear and equal power fades quite a lot, so I'd place the linear crossfade at the top of the list, the equal power second and all others beneath those.

The dropdown menu for the crossfades could be on its context menu, with the graphical images.

Giving the crossfades their own context would be very practical indeed.

And here's another method you could put there and nowhere else that's intuitive : Compressing and expanding the fades(not the material) from its center or from the origin of the mouse cursor. Click and drag .

[jedstar2000]

Could we have a multi track selection modifier plz

I have these working as macros but it would lead the way to proper multi track editing if these were supported as mouse modifiers.

Group select (Item )



Folder Group select (Item Shift) E (Mouse over)
selects all items in line with selected item

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by AdamWathan

Would anyone else find it a lot more intuitive if there was an actual crossfade zone? So instead of modifier+dragging the top corner of a crossfade to move the crossfade, you could just click and drag anywhere inside the crossfade to move it?

A zone like this:

I would find it a LOOOOOT more intuitive. I hate guessing where do I have to click to change the fade, it sucks as it is now.

[EricM]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

I would find it a LOOOOOT more intuitive. I hate guessing where do I have to click to change the fade, it sucks as it is now.

+10 (I kinda gained weight).

[Eyes]

Originally Posted by AdamWathan

Would anyone else find it a lot more intuitive if there was an actual crossfade zone? So instead of modifier+dragging the top corner of a crossfade to move the crossfade, you could just click and drag anywhere inside the crossfade to move it?

A zone like this:

+1 easy to understand and looks good.

[norbury brook]

As a long term reaper user this thread makes me a little uncomfortable. Reaper already is one of the most complex DAW's to get going with and even as a user of 4 years this looks like V4 will bring another huge learning curve.

MC

[EvilDragon]

Don't worry, mouse modifiers are already set by default so you don't need to dwell too much over it. Sure, there are some new modifiers in the house, and getting to know them will most certainly be a benefit, in exchange for a small amount of time needed to absorb them.

Other than that, mouse customization is extremely useful for people coming from other DAWs, for example - in a lot of cases, most of the mouse workflow can be transfered.