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Old 01-17-2019, 11:21 AM   #41
cdmstudios
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OK, I'm still bothered by this. In my opinion Reaper should put a little work into this.
I created three fades - 2 in reaper and 1 in pro tools. Two in Reaper were with Fader Scaling and Amplitude scaling. In my opinion, Fader scaling fades too quickly in the beginning. It certainly beats out Amplitude scaling for sure.
As you can see in the picture, the Pro Tools one at the top starts the fade a little later than the reaper Fader Scaled one and goes a little longer.

To me it's clear that the pro tools one is the most "musical" fade that doesn't sound abrupt to the ear.

I wish we could correct this natively in the program without a need for plugins or workarounds.
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:43 AM   #42
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hey sonic... thanks for that plugin.... for me it works very nicely since we can automate both parameters and can use bezier curves for those automations.... so with all that it seems we can get just about whatever kind of fade out might be desired....
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:59 PM   #43
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here's a V2 of the smooth fader plugin:

https://www.audioworld.de/VST/SonicA...Fader%20V2.zip

This one produces a slightly different curve (actually a little bit "steeper" at the end of the fade - V1 of the plugin faded out a little bit too slow at very low volumes).

After some testing I now recommend setting the target level envelope's point characteristics to "Bézier" instead of "linear" for both plugin versions (as hopi does already ). This produces even smoother fades

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Old 01-18-2019, 02:00 PM   #44
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wouldn't all of this be made moot if the fade shapes weren't 'baked-in' but could be adjusted? i've long wished for the ability to grab a place along a curve (either envelope or item) and freely drag it up or down, back and forth, to get a shape that precisely fits what i want. might require activating bezier 'handles'. adjusting bezier shapes this way is really common in graphics apps so it might not be difficult to include. could maybe be done with something like the scrollwheel, too.

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Old 01-18-2019, 02:18 PM   #45
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Quote:
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wouldn't all of this be made moot if the fade shapes weren't 'baked-in' [...] adjusting bezier shapes this way is really common in graphics [...].
That. But that's a FR, no?
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Old 01-18-2019, 02:47 PM   #46
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not sure if it's a fr or not. to me, the fades and curve shapes have always seemed very rudimentary, like a temporary or in-progress solution. the fades are the feature. what i'm suggesting just feels, to me, like a natural refinement or progression to get to where the feature always would have been aimed. obviously, people have noticed things that seem to fall short in their implementation. that makes it something between a bug fix and fr, i guess.
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Old 01-18-2019, 06:37 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babag View Post
wouldn't all of this be made moot if the fade shapes weren't 'baked-in' but could be adjusted? i've long wished for the ability to grab a place along a curve (either envelope or item) and freely drag it up or down, back and forth, to get a shape that precisely fits what i want. might require activating bezier 'handles'. adjusting bezier shapes this way is really common in graphics apps so it might not be difficult to include. could maybe be done with something like the scrollwheel, too.

BabaG
you're absolutely correct, babag. I have filed a feature request for better fade shapes back in 2015 or so. Until we will get a native solution I'm trying to get the job done in the best way possible. The smooth fader plugin gets there in 99 of 100 cases.

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Old 01-20-2019, 08:44 PM   #48
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It's the partial ticket - I did three tests the other day - one fade using Amplitude, one with Fader, and one with Pro Tools. Pro Tools still had the most musical fade. It took slightly longer than the Fader based one to dip and last longer at the end.

I'm not sure what happened to my post - I had put a picture of all three that demonstarted this.

I really wish Reaper could emulate Pro Tools' algorithm, or offer it as an option.
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Old 01-21-2019, 01:27 AM   #49
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Hi all,

well, some time ago I discovered thanks to this forum that in the mouse modifiers, you have a "adjust fade curve"... I placed it on "Alt", when I am on a fade, and with this I get the fade I want in two seconds...
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:57 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbe View Post
Hi all,

well, some time ago I discovered thanks to this forum that in the mouse modifiers, you have a "adjust fade curve"... I placed it on "Alt", when I am on a fade, and with this I get the fade I want in two seconds...
the problem is that you're still only working on the flawed Reaper stock fade curves which I and other folks find unmusical to begin with regardless how you tweak that curve with the mouse. You never get the right amount of gradual volume decrease throughout the entire fade from its start to the end. Either volume drops a hair too fast and then sustaines too long or vica-versa and especially the -40 dB to -inf. dB section of Reaper fades is never naturally smooth.

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Old 01-28-2019, 07:52 AM   #51
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EXACTLY!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
the problem is that you're still only working on the flawed Reaper stock fade curves which I and other folks find unmusical to begin with regardless how you tweak that curve with the mouse. You never get the right amount of gradual volume decrease throughout the entire fade from its start to the end. Either volume drops a hair too fast and then sustaines too long or vica-versa and especially the -40 dB to -inf. dB section of Reaper fades is never naturally smooth.

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Old 03-29-2019, 05:30 AM   #52
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it's sort of the ticket, but still not as natural sounding as Pro Tools' fade.

the fact that I have to "perform" a fade every time I just want something to fade out naturally is silly. Reaper should fix this and offer a fade choice that's nice to the ear...
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Old 03-29-2019, 06:18 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdmstudios View Post
it's sort of the ticket, but still not as natural sounding as Pro Tools' fade.

the fact that I have to "perform" a fade every time I just want something to fade out naturally is silly. Reaper should fix this and offer a fade choice that's nice to the ear...
ABSOLUTELY! +1!

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Old 03-29-2019, 10:58 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdmstudios View Post
... not as natural sounding as Pro ...
What is "natural" sounding ?

E.g. a physical Bell's sound fades out in an exponential way (energy drops exponentially with time, with that dB drops linear). Moving away from a sound source on the ground, energy drops linear. Moving away from a sound source located in the middle of a room, energy drops quadratic.

But in any case there are any "objects" in the surrounding, moving away from the sound sources implies a modifying convolution of the sound resulting in different frequency response and refelections. Hence a "natural" fade out seems like a very complex task, at least decreasing high frequency EQing and increasing reverb. Hernce I suppose there are "professional" Fade Out plugins available somewhere.

-Michael

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Old 03-30-2019, 07:53 AM   #55
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The point is not how a fading signal's sounds is sculptured with regard to its spectral composition over the entire fade time but how a simple volume fade makes something like a mix of a song decay over time on its way from 0% to 100% volume drop (thus, a simple song fade out). The term "natural sounding" in this context means "as if faded manually taking care of the musical context and aming for a pleasant volume dropping progression during fade time".

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Old 03-30-2019, 08:00 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
The point is not how a fading signal's sounds is sculptured with regard to its spectral composition over the entire fade time but how a simple volume fade makes something like a mix of a song decay over time on its way from 0% to 100% volume drop (thus, a simple song fade out). The term "natural souding" in this context means "as if faded manually taking care of the musical context and aming for a pleasant volume dropping progression during fade time".

.
This supposes that there is one way to fade out. In the days of manual fadeouts, no two were the same.

What shape is the Pro Tools fade?
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:08 AM   #57
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Quote:
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This supposes that there is one way to fade out
absolutely not! It supposes that a fade sounds as if done manually where every fade will be slightly different, fitting/serving the musical context and some physical parameters (smoothness/graduation). The latter is where Reaper's fade curves are having their issues.

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Old 03-30-2019, 08:10 AM   #58
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absolutely not! It supposes that a fade sounds as if done manually where every fade will be slightly different, fitting/serving the musical context and some physical parameters (smoothness/graduation). The latter is where Reaper's fade curves are having their issues.

.
Do you know the shape of the curve you want?
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:16 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Do you know the shape of the curve you want?
Current fade curves have their issues in the final section of the fades in the level range between -40 dB and -inf. I'd like to have a more gradual, smoother volume decrease behaviour in that range. That's basically all.

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Old 06-29-2019, 11:31 AM   #60
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BUMP!

Really hoping the Reaper team can put some thought into this.
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Old 06-30-2019, 09:25 AM   #61
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What I've started doing is to create two tracks, set them up as VCA masters and make the master track their slave.
Then I create two identical linear volume automation fades on the VCA tracks.
The two VCA fades working together create what I think is a square-law-shaped fade out on the master track, and it sounds pretty good to my ears.
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Old 06-30-2019, 08:21 PM   #62
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to be really honest, even though I do appreciate the plugin, I'm not clear on what the fuss is about...

I assume we are eventually talking about the final fade out on the master of the whole project, ...no????

IF yes... I don't see what can't be done on an envelope with various shapes... I seem to be able to get anything I want... I mean, gosh, we can shape those point curves any which way...
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:21 AM   #63
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To beat a dead horse:

The point is, I shouldn't be able to achieve a much more natural sounding fade in a program like Adobe Premiere (which I had to use this weekend for a quick sound mix) with a linear fade envelope than I can in a DAW like Reaper.

What is natural sounding? From point A to point B it simply never jumps down quickly in volume. It just sounds like it fades away, and you hear the tail all the way until it's at -infinite.

Can I draw this? Yes. Should I have to? no.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:40 AM   #64
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I use the preset envelope shapes for my fades, unless I'm going for something that happens in stages or something. Also, in the rare instances when I do a fade out, I prefer to do it on the individual tracks so it breathes rather than only on the master.

More often than that though, I write a definite end to the music so there's no level change at all for the ending.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:52 AM   #65
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Maybe my ears are just insensitive, but I find slow start/end shape to be fine for fade outs.
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Old 06-17-2020, 06:10 AM   #66
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Sorry for bumping an old thread but I have always hated the volume envelope for full song fades in Reaper. Like others have said the volume drops off a cliff below -40dB and just sounds bad. I was glad to find this fade plugin which produces a much better result. Also changing the scaling did work better than the default but I'm leery of altering that since fades on individual items in the mix sound fine to me, it's the full mix fadeout that's extremely problematic.
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:08 AM   #67
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agreed - this really should be addressed as the default fade behavior.
Just model it after Pro Tools' fades, if you need a reference. They sound natural.
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Old 06-21-2020, 04:49 AM   #68
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Prior to reading this thread, I too struggled with 'standard' reaper fades getting one that sounds natural. In the end I did a compilation of fades at the end of the music to improve matters and concluded it probably was just my lack of Reaper experience that gave me difficulties!

Now I realise that was likely the wrong conclusion so was please to find this thread after the bumps and would support a request for fr to be followed by the Reaper designers!

Has that request been made and if so what is the response to it?

If I might add my thought on the fade shape, IMHO it needs to be variable as the shape depends upon both the music and the use. An end of song fade as an example will be different to a fade linking two pieces of music?
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Old 06-21-2020, 05:00 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdmstudios View Post
Just model it after Pro Tools' fades, if you need a reference. They sound natural.
Who is to decide what sounds "natural" ? (See post #54)
-Michael
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Old 06-22-2020, 08:12 AM   #70
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rather than get caught up in what's "natural" how about we just address the fact that the default linear fade in Reaper is objectively harsh and unpleasant. It drops off so quickly. Why would someone use this? The less quickly it drops off, and the longer one can hear the audio before the end of the fade, the better.
What would be the argument against this?
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Old 06-22-2020, 08:59 AM   #71
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Quote:
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Who is to decide what sounds "natural" ? (See post #54)
-Michael
The user!

I appreciate very much what you say in that there are many reductions (or increases) in sound level that conform to particular mathematical curves and some that do not and there will therefore be many of them.

Perhaps Natural is the wrong definition; sounding good and acceptable is probably what is required and that will vary quite a lot!

So having a fade curve that can be adjusted by the user would be best....as has already been mentioned - whereas the current ones in Reaper (as far as I am aware) and as posted by others that are easily adjusted in shape rather than a few selectable ones would fit the bill.

If it can be done with a track envelope surely it would be fairly easy to do it similarly and save for repeated use or slight modification....
....but then I do not know what is required to do that in the programming of Reaper!
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Old 06-26-2020, 01:43 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdmstudios View Post
rather than get caught up in what's "natural" how about we just address the fact that the default linear fade in Reaper is objectively harsh and unpleasant. It drops off so quickly. Why would someone use this? The less quickly it drops off, and the longer one can hear the audio before the end of the fade, the better.
What would be the argument against this?
The devs probably never tested the default scaling much on a full song fadeout. For individual parts in the mix an abrupt drop off at -40 dB doesn't matter as you probably won't notice.
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Old 02-01-2021, 02:40 PM   #73
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I know this post faded out.... but

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
the problem is that you're still only working on the flawed Reaper stock fade curves which I and other folks find unmusical to begin with regardless how you tweak that curve with the mouse.

.
Isn't the problem that editing the envelope curvature switches the fade type back to bezier. I'd like to be able to change the curvature of the slow start/end fade but it's not currently possible afaik.

We can do this kind of edit on an item fade of this type but not an envelope.

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Old 07-30-2021, 06:57 PM   #74
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Right now I was mastering a song and started to determine if the item fades or the volume envelope had the perfect fit for the fade out I was looking for. Today I've decided to pay more attention to the curve adjustment for the item fade and finally I've picked the dynamic I wanted for my fade out. And in this case I am mastering an album, and not all tracks will fade out to silence, but the song ending will reach a certain level and then the following song strikes out. Some tracks from Usher's album "Confessions" can serve as examples of the fades I'm now accomplishing.

Fade outs might seem silly, but their effect really can cause a great impact.
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Old 07-30-2021, 10:02 PM   #75
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Did it work for you ?

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Old 07-31-2021, 10:03 AM   #76
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Did it work for you ?
For what I was looking for, it worked, after some curve adjustments over the linear fade.

Just a reminder, I used item fade instead of the envelope shapes.

I've even tryed to use the fast start shape to accomplish the fade I was looking for since I found it very smoother, but at the very ending I found it got a little faster than I've expected to the infinity, causing a gap I didn't want.

But of course, everything about the fades is a matter of personal preference and /or artistic expression, so it's a little hard to set a default consensus in this regard.

Glad to find this healthy thread.

Peace,

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