Make Reaper DAW again

[rst]

There is long discussion going about probably upcoming version 6 and I find some expectations too high. Especially ones about UI improvement. Reaper is developed longer than decade and there is possible to see some worrying trend.
Reaper is very powerful functionally, probably can do more than any other daw. But it is so powerful that nobody can overpower it and create sane user interface defaults. And, I am afraid, never will.

Reaper slowly becomes IDE, not DAW.

There is high quality core with open API, actions list etc. packed into cluttered menus and the rest you can tweak yourself using scripts, walter, toolbars, custom actions etc. or search forums. What next? Hire a programmer to program scripts for you, while you try to make music? That reminds me world of Linux with well developed kernel and assorted cluttered desktop space on top, which never got usable over 20 years of "development" by super cool "community". Reaper may repeat the same path.
Sorry, maybe just bad day, but somehow I got doubts if Reaper is still so cool and is it still a DAW.

[EvilDragon]

Reaper is still cool and is still a DAW. There's already plenty of functionality in there even before you install a single script. Reaper+SWS is just awesome. Scripts are sugar on top, you can have it but you don't NEED to, in order to MAKE MUSIC. Extensibility is there for those who want to utilize it. Those who don't, don't have to.

[Aeolian]

I just downloaded the reapack thingy, and with all the extra stuff in that, plus good old sws, it's a seriously large amount of sugar on top

No one could possibly explore all these actions in one lifetime... reapack just added another 1800 or so (I've found some good stuff already, but my action list is now gigantic)

[Trancit]

Nevertheless and apart from all scripts: Reaper is definetely the linux within the DAW world, which is not necessarily a good thing in terms of usability...

This vid from Kenny is a very good example and earns the title: more complicated isn´t possible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMmBJqTQUTw&t=1s

This is a one click operation in every other DAW on this planet and in Reaper it takes me an hour to do this natively with a more complicated loop than Kenny uses...

Reaper is a great DAW, but often unnecessarily complicated exactly like linux and instead of making Reaper more useable/finetuned, it turns atm more and more into a Linux version of Vegas Pro

[vanhaze]

When you have the free ReaPack installed, you will have several Actions in your Reaper Action List, made by mpl, that will do what Kenny shows in just "1 click":
Do a search in Reaper Action List for:
"mpl export selected item"
And it will give you several mpl Actions for fast exporting items to RS5K.

But here again, i agree this is no "native" implemenation in Reaper, you need ReaPack installed.

I assume newcomers to Reaper just don't want to hassle around with installing extensions like SWS and ReaPack ; they just want to have native functionality right there to their availibility in Reaper.

Reaper's "open" system is it's strength for people who wanna dig deeper into Reaper
and are willing to invest time to optimize their workflows in Reaper to maximum speed.
And it is it's weakness for people stepping over from another DAW (which are more "closed" systems).
But when you are stepping over to Reaper from another DAW, i think the best is not to constantly make comparisons to the DAW you used to use, you will have to dig into Reaper with a "clean state of mind".

Just my 2 cents.

[slipstick]

It's true that if what you're looking for is something that provides a limited range of possibilities with simple UIs and simply refuses to do anything different or more complex then Reaper probably isn't the ideal choice for you.

But there are a lot of us who don't think that's a problem. It's true I'd like it even better if it was optimised for all the things I want to do and it was only the things I don't want do that are a bit difficult to get to...but I'm realistic enough to know that it can't be optimised for everyone because we ain't all the same.

Steve

[rst]

I am programmer and for me there is no problem to learn yet another scripting language. But... I don't want to. Maybe Reaper would be better for me if I would not know programming.
Sometimes I want to be just musician using a tool and think about chord sequences, melody, arrangement and not some kind "if I would create some tricky if..then..else condition here, wrap that into nested loop in the loop, then assign to button, it could do some magic no other daw in the world is able to do". And then after some time notice that minor detail was missed in my script and it would be nice to remember it's logic and tweak it to make even more perfect.
That happens subconsciously and you do not notice how from user you become a tweaker.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by rst

I am programmer and for me there is no problem to learn yet another scripting language. But... I don't want to. Maybe Reaper would be better for me if I would not know programming.
Sometimes I want to be just musician using a tool and think about chord sequences, melody, arrangement and not some kind "if I would create some tricky if..then..else condition here, wrap that into nested loop in the loop, then assign to button, it could do some magic no other daw in the world is able to do". And then after some time notice that minor detail was missed in my script and it would be nice to remember it's logic and tweak it to make even more perfect.
That happens subconsciously and you do not notice how from user you become a tweaker.

Only if you let it.

I realize that it's sometimes easier said than done, but I approach the programmer/engineer/producer/musician thing just like i approach scales and metronome groove practice, something that you do in a very disciplined fashion, then must almost completely disregard in order to play with feel.

But I do hear ya' bro, you just described my daily life with Reaper

[Eliseat]

So many answers but no one gets to the point. He doesn't mean Reaper is not cool or super. Its the opposite. He criticizes, it more and more turns into a nerd workstation instead of getting more easy and more user friendly. Reaper is great, but it needs way more usability. I also criticized that in many posts.

I talked with a lot of people about how they got into Reaper and EVERYONE told me, they first tried it several times (over years) and just gave up several times before realizing what power in Reaper sleeps. This is a hint which the developer and the community should consider for further developments.

When I see how all the geeks are jumping around in happiness when another weird tiny "FEATURE" gets into a new version while the workflow gets more and more complicated with a thousand scripts and workarounds i ask myself: where will this end? Will Reaper turn into worlds most complicated DAW but with the worlds most available possibilities? Its just annoying to see how every other daw tries to simplify every step while Reaper just stays the same and adds more and more features.

Reapack and SWS are indeed great features but for beginners its time consuming, irritating and "NOT making music". Yes of course, most of you programmers and scriptwriters don't see a thing, because its your world. But new users and beginners don't have a clue. They read: "install this and that, put this and that into a folder, make these five steps to create a shortcut and put script a, b, c, d, e, f and g together to have a custom script to get the standard feature of an other DAW." And then they try Live or FL Studio and wont come back.

Just my thoughts. And in the forums are lots of questions or simple requests about how the sampler, the media browser etc. should be more user friendly. It sounds of course boring. But ...

Greetings from Cologne

Eli

[rst]

Originally Posted by Eliseat

So many answers but no one gets to the point. He doesn't mean Reaper is not cool or super. Its the opposite. He criticizes, it more and more turns into a nerd workstation instead of getting more easy and more user friendly. Reaper is great, but it needs way more usability. I also criticized that in many posts.

Thank you, this is exactly what I am trying to say, but it is a bit difficult when English is not my native language

Development of Reaper more and more relies on community and users. Developers do excellent core expecting the crowd will adapt it and do additional programming for themselves. IMO it is wrong way, consistency gets lost. History of Linux as a desktop system shows where such approach leads.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by rst

nobody can overpower it and create sane user interface defaults.

I understand that for many users the defaults are just great out of the box. Of course whoever has special needs might want another DAW, but OTOH, he can invest some effort in tweaking Reaper in the way he personally likes best (and which many other supposedly will find disgusting)

Originally Posted by rst

Reaper slowly becomes IDE,

Which is great for exactly the reason you bought up: Being able to Have it show the interface you personally like best.

-Michael

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Aeolian

t's a seriously large amount of sugar on top

No one could possibly explore all these actions in one lifetime... reapack just added another 1800 or so (I've found some good stuff already, but my action list is now gigantic)

Add dedicated addon stuff for
- video
- using hardware surfaces
- live playing
- ...
- ...

-Michael

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Eliseat

I talked with a lot of people about how they got into Reaper and EVERYONE told me, they first tried it several times (over years) and just gave up several times before realizing what power in Reaper sleeps.

Seemingly they did not watch the great videos ....
-Michael

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by rst

IMO it is wrong way, ...

If you want to make money, but it's a great way to write history.

Originally Posted by rst

History of Linux as a desktop system shows where such approach leads.

... to Linux running in some 75% of the mobile devices, some 90 % of the Internet's infrastructure boxes, and some 75% of the embedded devices lately installed.

... And now we have Reaper officially running on Linux

-Michael

[Trancit]

Originally Posted by vanhaze

When you have the free ReaPack installed, you will have several Actions in your Reaper Action List, made by mpl, that will do what Kenny shows in just "1 click":
Do a search in Reaper Action List for:
"mpl export selected item"
And it will give you several mpl Actions for fast exporting items to RS5K.

But here again, i agree this is no "native" implemenation in Reaper, you need ReaPack installed.

I assume newcomers to Reaper just don't want to hassle around with installing extensions like SWS and ReaPack ; they just want to have native functionality right there to their availibility in Reaper.

Reaper's "open" system is it's strength for people who wanna dig deeper into Reaper
and are willing to invest time to optimize their workflows in Reaper to maximum speed.
And it is it's weakness for people stepping over from another DAW (which are more "closed" systems).
But when you are stepping over to Reaper from another DAW, i think the best is not to constantly make comparisons to the DAW you used to use, you will have to dig into Reaper with a "clean state of mind".

Just my 2 cents.

I know about these actions...
Problem is, that they don´t refer to the original files...they render a new file for each slice of a loop, which can in certain situations end up with thousands and thousands of little audio files in your directory...

Not my cup of tea to be honest... my biggest gripe in Reaper... everything you do with i.e. ctrl+alt+drag or such actions bombs your system with thousands of little completely unnecessary files, which creates a mess and loss of general overview...
The "import item from arrange" is afaik the only way to stop this mess...

Imho the most stupid and unefficient way to realize this...
PS: With this I don´t mean all the generous people doing scripts and custom actions!!!!!!!!

[Trancit]

Originally Posted by Eliseat

So many answers but no one gets to the point. He doesn't mean Reaper is not cool or super. Its the opposite. He criticizes, it more and more turns into a nerd workstation instead of getting more easy and more user friendly. Reaper is great, but it needs way more usability. I also criticized that in many posts.

I talked with a lot of people about how they got into Reaper and EVERYONE told me, they first tried it several times (over years) and just gave up several times before realizing what power in Reaper sleeps. This is a hint which the developer and the community should consider for further developments.

When I see how all the geeks are jumping around in happiness when another weird tiny "FEATURE" gets into a new version while the workflow gets more and more complicated with a thousand scripts and workarounds i ask myself: where will this end? Will Reaper turn into worlds most complicated DAW but with the worlds most available possibilities? Its just annoying to see how every other daw tries to simplify every step while Reaper just stays the same and adds more and more features.

Reapack and SWS are indeed great features but for beginners its time consuming, irritating and "NOT making music". Yes of course, most of you programmers and scriptwriters don't see a thing, because its your world. But new users and beginners don't have a clue. They read: "install this and that, put this and that into a folder, make these five steps to create a shortcut and put script a, b, c, d, e, f and g together to have a custom script to get the standard feature of an other DAW." And then they try Live or FL Studio and wont come back.

Just my thoughts. And in the forums are lots of questions or simple requests about how the sampler, the media browser etc. should be more user friendly. It sounds of course boring. But ...

Greetings from Cologne

Eli

+ 1000

This puts all Reaper problems into one posting...

Devs, you should take this really into consideration for every new step you plan...
At this point of development you have to be quite a nerd to make good use out of Reaper.... or you will hardly scratch ever the surface and will ask yourself, why you shouldn´t use something else, which is far more attractive out of the box...

[Trancit]

Originally Posted by mschnell

I understand that for many users the defaults are just great out of the box.
...

That´s the opposite of what I am thinking...
Compared to it´s competition, it´s hard to get close to even 10% of what others do right of the box without studying...

Only if you are willing to dive deep into this rabbit hole, you are able to use Reaper in a way, which is superior to the others... but on first glance ...

[Trancit]

Originally Posted by mpl

Oh so that is not problem.I`ll write this later today and will put into Reapack.

Wow... thank you... I thought it wouldn´t be possible without rendering...

The problem is you have lost all take-related stuff without rendering (playrate, stretch markers, take envelopes).

This would equal to the way of all other DAWs do it...
If I want to have a special treatment prerendert, I can first bounce it to a new track at let this to be sliced

For now you can use such mod built into RS5k manager which is also in ReaPack.

This I don´t understand... I know your manager ...not very well but I know, what it is...:-)

[mpl]

Originally Posted by Trancit

I know about these actions...
Problem is, that they don´t refer to the original files...they render a new file for each slice of a loop, which can in certain situations end up with thousands and thousands of little audio files in your directory...

Just added to ReaPack mpl_Export selected items to RS5k instances on selected track (use original source). That script was previously placed in RS5k manager menu (I just forget to add this as a separate script, nobody notified me about this, etc)

[mpl]

Scripts simplify workflow, not vice versa.
Otherwise you don`t know how/why to use them.
Tired of nerdy Reaper? Try playing any major software which masks kids-oriented politics by term "simplifying" in every new "feature" for your $$$. There is good side of simplifying on market though (ex. Max7 and further).

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Trancit

Compared to it´s competition, it´s hard to get close to even 10% of what others do right of the box without studying...

In Reaper's price range, I tried CuBasic and Audacity. They did close to nothing of what I wanted to achieve in a decent way . And AFAIK, there was no rabbit hole to dive in.

Admittedly this has been some years ago, and there are some new offers since then.

-Michael

[X-Raym]

Reaper slowly becomes IDE,

Remember what REAPER actually means:


Rapid Environment for Audio Production, Engineering, and Recording


Seems pretty normal that it extends some of its IDE feature. It is one of the only DAW which can provide that, so it is one things which makes it attractive against its competitors.



Though I won't argue: User-Friendly features are useful to everyone, no matter the skill levels. Any user experience enhancements are welcome.

[Valle]

Originally Posted by Eliseat

Reapack and SWS are indeed great features but for beginners its time consuming, irritating and "NOT making music". Yes of course, most of you programmers and scriptwriters don't see a thing, because its your world. But new users and beginners don't have a clue. They read: "install this and that, put this and that into a folder, make these five steps to create a shortcut and put script a, b, c, d, e, f and g together to have a custom script to get the standard feature of an other DAW." And then they try Live or FL Studio and wont come back.

Great reflection! And not entirely untrue.

One of the main reasons I stay loyal to REAPER is its almost unlimited customization possibilities. It doesn't necessary make REAPER unique in a particular matter, but it does make it more efficient than other DAWs. I'm using ReaScript and JSFX to perfectly fit my needs in my creativity process. I used to do the same back in the Cakewalk days, some thousand years ago, using its scripting language CAL. (Let alone all the crap I make today with VBA/MS Office.)

Anyway ... For non-(script)programmers, though, I don't think that the REAPER Actions are particularly hard to get the hang of. Not even for new users. It's just a "feature" in itself to learn to use as any other feature. And even if you don't use REAPER Actions, you can still make and impress with great, professional productions. I believe that making good music today (2018) is not just about unconditionally expecting ready-to-go features that fit "me" and "my" needs. You also need to plan your work and get to know your tools. (Because, you see, in the near future – there will be only one DAW that has harvested the souls of all the other DAWs )

But there is an ironic part to it all: REAPER’s almost unlimited customization possibilities is the reason new users get the impression that REAPER is “too complicated”. All the themes, all the cool add-ins, extensions, etc. makes them think that they are part of the actual application when in fact they are more or less user “preferences”. And then when a new REAPER version gets released with new or refined features, the users blame (for lack of a better word) REAPER for making the themes, add-ins, extensions or whatever appear buggy or becoming totally obsolete.

[strachupl]

I think that good way to make Reaper great is to listen people which have experience with multiple DAWs and try to adapt some ideas and workflow from them. It can protect us from trying to reinvent a wheel tendency. Some solutions are just right and can be done in most quick and smart way. What I dont like in Reaper is that u can do same minor things in many ways and look jealous how other daws are smart about basic important things. The big one is for me area selection, in Reaper selecting items and some chosen envelopes is pain, u must do that in many steps, zooming aiming points, thinking how scripts, A.Items or other options can help u to just copy area and improve that mission in future. No simply solution.
but...
Reaper IMO looks great for sound design where you would expect for specific operarions, very complicated on many samples.
Still for basic composition Reaper is decent but surely could be better, more friendly.

[Eliseat]

Oh yeah, that's the same type of arguing of how wrong it is to support Trump because he is an idiot. But without realizing there are nearly 50% of people with reasons to do so. In Germany we have a word for that: Deutungshoheit! It means: whoever thinks from its point of view its the right view, don't even considers another one.

Yes, the core developers and scriptwriters love the nerdy way Reaper offers to make music, but that doesn't mean there are not a lot of customers who would like it a bit more compact and less complicated. The strong answers of the Reaperters showing clearly, they don't even consider an other way because they - of course - like their own.

I'm pretty happy with Reaper. And there are a lot of possibilities. (Thanks to guys like you, mpl!) But working with it mostly feels just like an endless compromise. Its just that.

BTW: To bring Linux as an example was a good move. Its not about the core and the use as a base for smartphones and TVs. We were talking about the handling and usability. A Linux only got currency BECAUSE the GUIs in the end got simplified and more compact from more user friendly developers than the Linux Desktop distributions had. There will always be a difference between nerds and plain Windows users. Just take a look at most of the open source software with lots of features but terrible workflow - and not to mention the design.

As I mentioned: I'm pretty happy with Reaper. But that doesn't mean it could be better.

[Eliseat]

Originally Posted by strachupl

I think that good way to make Reaper great is to listen people which have experience with multiple DAWs and try to adapt some ideas and workflow from them. It can protect us from trying to reinvent a wheel tendency. Some solutions are just right and can be done in most quick and smart way. What I dont like in Reaper is that u can do same minor things in many ways and look jealous how other daws are smart about basic important things. The big one is for me area selection, in Reaper selecting items and some chosen envelopes is pain, u must do that in many steps, zooming aiming points, thinking how scripts, A.Items or other options can help u to just copy area and improve that mission in future. No simply solution.
but...
Reaper IMO looks great for sound design where you would expect for specific operarions, very complicated on many samples.
Still for basic composition Reaper is decent but surely could be better, more friendly.

Oh, good Lord! It seems I just have found a soulmate. Yes! It always has been a pain in the Popo to work in the arrange view. It feels just ... i can't describe. Other DAWs have different ways and mod keys to select etc. but for some reason it only lasts five minutes of confusion and then its just adapted.

[force_redo]

Isn't this just he same problem as there is with gear or picking cereals in a superstore? I.e. too many options will actually limit your creativity, because you get bogged down what the best tool for the job would be and how to optimize that tool rather than using it?

I have read a lot of articles (so many, I can't pick one! ) about how to artificially limit your options so you can use your brain space for the creative task at hand. I think there's something to be said for that.
I'm usually at my best when I'm far away from the computer.

But having options is, of course, a good thing. I've used reaper for many years now and by and large I'm fine with it, but I can see how the buttons, presets, scripts, themes I use change with the latest possibilities. And the time I invest to see whether the latest additions might help me with something I couldn't do before etc. Whereas an 8 track is still the same and still works perfectly fine for the job.

I think it's a difficult one but I tend to agree with the OP. If I would delete all my settings and preferences, it would probably take me a few hours to be able to work again the way I'm used to.

Or I would never find the same settings again, which is fine too, because I would just adapt to how the software works (it's a two-way affair, isn't it?) In other words: If there wasn't an option for everything, I would probably not even think about whether I would prefer something the other way around.

[MikComposer]

What i like:
- Addition of scripts
What I don't like:
- That those scripts are mandatory to get some better workflow. That makes reaper a time killer. Frankly all of those scripts are half done anyway.

Scripts are great thing, but only as addition to great software.
If cubase had scripts it would be really good. But without them it's still a killer
in terms of workflow. And I feel I have wasted 8 years because of using reaper. I truly do.

[rst]

Originally Posted by mschnell

If you want to make money, but it's a great way to write history.

... to Linux running in some 75% of the mobile devices, some 90 % of the Internet's infrastructure boxes, and some 75% of the embedded devices lately installed.

... And now we have Reaper officially running on Linux

-Michael

This is great achievement, but the evil is in details. Regarding 75% mobile devices it is not exactly linux, but a well polished corporate product on top of the Linux kernel.
That is how Reaper could be packed too: core app plus only well tested, unified, non-conflicting, easy to install and remove, uncluttered addons in well maintained app repository. And after that possibility for true geeks to code some rare specific stuff outside that repository.

Infrastructure boxes and embedded devices are the place where good programs with poor UI usually go.

[serr]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Reaper is still cool and is still a DAW. There's already plenty of functionality in there even before you install a single script. Reaper+SWS is just awesome. Scripts are sugar on top, you can have it but you don't NEED to, in order to MAKE MUSIC. Extensibility is there for those who want to utilize it. Those who don't, don't have to.

Exactly. Back when Protools was the flagship DAW, it had a lot of extended features that average users never touched too.

In this weird modern scene we're in with so many products doing massive bait and switch (or being just plain facsimiles - flashy and all), Reaper is a no bs professionally looking and feeling breath of fresh air.

When I see a software app that has a lot of effort in the GUI with all kinds of flash and flair, if there are any significant bugs or quirks it comes across as really negative and unprofessional. Someone spent time futzing with the appearance when there was real work to do?! Yeah, I'm gonna look for something else!

I'm not sure if that last bit is what was meant in the OP. What I'm trying to say is that some of us put pure functionality above appearance. Appearance IS important to a functional DAW app on some levels of course! I'm just not clever enough right now to state that any better. Reaper feels seriously no bs professional and I like the priorities.

Linux is going to be the professional OS the way things are going too I think. Apple is moveing away from making computers and the demise of OSX is coming. There's already useless flashy bloat in OSX. Moving to Linux is suddenly very near the top of my priority list after the last couple years of Apple making garbage computers and OSX getting sloppy. But their stuff is sure flashy!

[MikComposer]

@DEEB Why did you remove your post?

[Lunar Ladder]

Originally Posted by MikComposer

That makes reaper a time killer. Frankly all of those scripts are half done anyway.

Nope, and nope

Or, more precisely, from yor point of view, yep and yep, but it's just subjective.

Comments like yours are the result of a bias, created by bitterness of having spent so long with a working enviroment that doesn't suit you personally. I remember you just agonizing over here for the longest time, when it was clear this isn't for you. It's understandable, and my personal bias in turn is at the opposing end of the spectrum, as this working enviroment suits me so well.

As a general comment on the "tweakiness" of Reaper, the most important thing to say in my opinion is, if you know what your workflow needs, and you want to tweak and make changes to accommodate that, just make those changes well and make the software serve your use case elegantly instead of creating those not-so-constructive "tweaky" solutions. Every step you take, take it to the direction of making your work more convenient and applicable to the types of projects you do. If you aren't capable of doing that (either because of lacking the knowhow of how to realize your desired workflow, or because the software doesn't support realizing it), there's no point in staying with that sort of software, and it makes sense to move to another product that works like you want to work.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by MikComposer

@DEEB Why did you remove your post?

I felt i should, because i have expressed my opinion on this many Times. Só i would be repeating. Is,s always the same debate, the same users, the same block, the same result - null.
Debating and requests in this fóruns is very muddy. And devs silence and apathy is a sign that it is the way they want.

[Lunar Ladder]

Originally Posted by Eliseat

In Germany we have a word for that: Deutungshoheit! It means: whoever thinks from its point of view its the right view, don't even considers another one.

This sounds promising, as in, you can constructively apply this to your own comments as well .

Originally Posted by Eliseat

I'm pretty happy with Reaper. And there are a lot of possibilities. (Thanks to guys like you, mpl!) But working with it mostly feels just like an endless compromise. Its just that.

You will need to understand that for someone else, Reaper is the DAW that literally feels like it's the least compromising of all DAWs. Full stop. It completely depends on the personal viewpoint and working methods of the user in question. Before understanding that, the discussion will always be lopsided on one side or the other. There is the sort of power user (and there are other types of power users as well, but there is this particular sort of power user) that celebrates the "nerdiness" of it, knows exactly what they expect out of an environment like this, and loves the "hacker vibe" of an environment that lets them do what they want by their own terms. For those users, it's about building their own user experience, and then using it.

As an example, I used Studio One for three years and jumped off of it because it felt too much of a compromise. It was smooth and simple, but I felt much too restricted using it, finally deciding it just wasn't for me. Too much compromises. In 2015 I started using Reaper as my main DAW, and it has been a great fit. I use it alongside Live, which serves as my secondary DAW (I use Live mainly for sound design gigs, and to get another perspective, out of habit as I've been working in it from 2004 and it's another great fit for me).

Originally Posted by Eliseat

BTW: To bring Linux as an example was a good move. Its not about the core and the use as a base for smartphones and TVs. We were talking about the handling and usability. A Linux only got currency BECAUSE the GUIs in the end got simplified and more compact from more user friendly developers than the Linux Desktop distributions had.

Linux is used in every single one of the world's top 500 fastest supercomputers as we speak. In addition to that tip of the iceberg, the Linux kernel is the most used operating system core on Earth. Yes, I know you said "not about the core", but there's a thing to be said of the mindset that such open-endedness nourishes. It's something certain kinds of people treasure, others don't. And that's fine.

Originally Posted by Eliseat

And then they try Live or FL Studio and wont come back.

That's in no way a bad thing. It's cool to have options for different needs and approaches.

[MikComposer]

Originally Posted by Lunar Ladder

Nope, and nope

Or, more precisely, from yor point of view, yep and yep, but it's just subjective.

Comments like yours are the result of a bias, created by bitterness of having spent so long with a working enviroment that doesn't suit you personally. I remember you just agonizing over here for the longest time, when it was clear this isn't for you. It's understandable, and my personal bias in turn is at the opposing end of the spectrum, as this working enviroment suits me so well.

As a general comment on the "tweakiness" of Reaper, the most important thing to say in my opinion is, if you know what your workflow needs, and you want to tweak and make changes to accommodate that, just make those changes well and make the software serve your use case elegantly instead of creating those not-so-constructive "tweaky" solutions. Every step you take, take it to the direction of making your work more convenient and applicable to the types of projects you do. If you aren't capable of doing that (either because of lacking the knowhow of how to realize your desired workflow, or because the software doesn't support realizing it), there's no point in staying with that sort of software, and it makes sense to move to another product that works like you want to work.

I moved on already. But I still own reaper's license ( I still like using it for sfx work) and that makes me completely legit to critique it. Sure it is subjective, but some of that subjectivity comes from general experience of myself and others. I used to do web dev, and there were ux rules that do actually make browsing webpages much more enjoyable but also useful allowing users to work fast. Same thing goes for any software interface and usability. I have heavily customized reaper several times, took me long time trying scripts, reaserching, trying skins, making own track templates etc., and it never fulfilled my expectations, not worked particularly well:
1 - as you said, you not always know what you need, or that something is possible or not. But regardless. I have spend a lot of time researching, and had planty of buttons to which every now and then I was adding new ones, and ended up with something resembling button-calypse and modifiers-calypse
2 - every now and then a script is removed from reapack. If you remember that you have used it, you can keep it, but even then a new reaper release can break compatibility with it and there isn't a script to replace it. Which had happened to me before.

There is also plenty of weird quirks and never-to-be-fixed little bugs, that can break your whole piece easily, which have also happened to me, and a lot,usually related to buggy snapping and pdc mishmash, but as well to some plugins causing small phase issues ( that's when you learn to appreaciate Steinberg's blacklisting )

So, there isn't any BIAS, but it is long experience with the program.

[Lunar Ladder]

Originally Posted by MikComposer

I moved on already.

I know, that's the primary reason why I decided to comment on the bitterness, as only that kind of bitterness and lost time make someone open up in that manner even after they have "moved on".

Originally Posted by MikComposer

But I still own reaper's license ( I still like using it for sfx work) and that makes me completely legit to critique it.

Of course. The legitimacy of the act of critiquing is of course different from the legitimacy of the content of the critique . Okay, that was a meh comment from me. It's just... I remember when your posts were more or less daily complaints of how you were trying to force a square peg into a round hole with Reaper. It gets old. In the "why don't you just use something else already, it's been years, man!" kind of way.

Originally Posted by MikComposer

Sure it is subjective, but some of that subjectivity comes from general experience of myself and others.

Some of my subjectivity comes from general experience of myself and others as well .

Originally Posted by MikComposer

I used to do web dev, and there were ux rules that do actually make browsing webpages much more enjoyable but also useful allowing users to work fast.

Same here.

Originally Posted by MikComposer

Same thing goes for any software interface and usability. I have customized reaper many times, and it never fulfilled my expectations, not worked particularly well:

Yep, everything you list there is something I have, on the other hand, managed to avoid. I built my workflow and now I use it. Occasionally I modify something when a different use case arises, but I have found it to be a pleasant experience, not the sort of nightmare you speak of. The bulk of all of this is subjective.

We've had this conversation before, in your more ranty years/months. Our workflows are different (I tend to play and record all MIDI into the project in realtime and edit further from there, for example, you on the other hand don't) and our outlook and attitude towards building our own working environment is different. Neither one of us is objectively right, the reality is just that the other one is very pleased and the other one isn't. That's how it goes, and if you find yourself being the one who isn't pleased, it pays off to find actual solutions to that instead of continuing with the wrong shaped peg thing.

Originally Posted by MikComposer

There is also plenty of weird quirks and never-to-be-fixed little bugs, that can break your whole piece easily, which have also happened to me

This one I wanted to single out and say, no, this has never happened to me, even with projects spawned from pretty huge Kontakt templates. So this is workflow dependent as well, it seems. To summarize: if Reaper didn't work for me, I wouldn't have any reason to keep that a secret. I would let you know how much I think it doesn't work for me. Thing is, it works for me very well.

[MikComposer]

I do record too, just not always.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by MikComposer

I do record too, just not always.

That is what this is all about. Imo. Happy musians with how reaper workflow is are tracking or kontakt based musicians.

[MikComposer]

Originally Posted by deeb

That is what this is all about. Imo. Happy musians with how reaper workflow is are tracking or kontakt based musicians.

Well, I do a lot o kontakt too.

[Lunar Ladder]

Originally Posted by deeb

That is what this is all about. Imo. Happy musians with how reaper workflow is are tracking or kontakt based musicians.

MikComposer is, for a big part, a Kontakt based musician. If I'm not awfully mistaken [Edit: echo : P ]

Anyway, hmmh, for electronic material and more editing heavy stuff, I find that I actually prefer my current editing workflow in Reaper to that of Live. Somewhat. There are other strong points in Live for creative sound design / electronic work, namely their whole racks paradigm and how it can be combined with some pretty crazy M4L stuff in a more integrated fashion now in version 10... And that's a huge part of its appeal for me. But I have to say, I've been surprised at how the pure editing side feels more comfortable in Reaper for me these days.