Old 01-29-2019, 12:05 AM   #41
serr
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In fact WiFi never can't be considered a safe connection. There are too many devices around that can disturb the wireless transfer. Especially OSC is prone to damage,m as it is not TCP, but USP based (no retry if an IP package is lost) .

That is why I use LAN cable whenever possible. Of course the CR18 does feature a LAN (RJ45) socket.

If you really need WiFI, you should use a high quality dedicated router (e.g. three antenna) box.

-Michael
I'm still using a Linksys WRT54G with a 1W booster for my rig.
9 times out of 10 I have zero lags up to 300' away from the stage where my rack lives. Antenna is on a 10' boom mast. That 10% though... Got to admit it happens! (Wonder what a 50W or more booster might do? Price sure goes up! Would it help though or just add to a wall of noise?) Can't exactly roam the room if I'm leashed so I'm committed to wi-fi.

Both friends said they've never had any issue in clubs (probably no more than 100') with an off the shelf router with the X32. The OSC stuff is just a very light weight back and forth of MIDI data.

I really need to get off my lazy ass and incorporate OSC into my rig since it literally requires no more hardware. I kind of want to rip off the template they use on the M32/X32 too.

I was thinking for a second the XR18 could be an instant little B rig for $500... Oh well.

Not doing too many live gigs these days though either. Got burnt out and pissed off.

Last edited by serr; 01-29-2019 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 01-29-2019, 02:17 AM   #42
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I understand the positioning of the antenna is a critical parameter (together with the quality of the router device). The antennas should be located in free air with distance to other equipment and above the heads of the public.

Hence I consider the built-in WiFi of the XR18 just a courtesy feature for very simple configuration purpose.

In a live situation I would use a router box on a stand, connected to the Rack Mixer by an RJ45 cable.

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The OSC stuff is just a very light weight back and forth of MIDI data.
Not really. OSC is not Midi at all (other than Midi it transfers floating point values for the parameters.) Nonetheless it's rather light weight regarding network traffic. But it is rather demanding regarding the network quality, as missed packets are not detected, and faulty packets are just ignored.

-Michael
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Old 01-29-2019, 08:17 AM   #43
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Aw jeeze...

I just ended up talking with a couple of my engineer friends and mentioned the XR18. Apparently the built-in wi-fi is basically DOA if you get more than 20' away from it in an actual live stage setting. One of them tried to go out on tour with it and ended up scrambling and picked up an X32 rack on the road. Both had glowing reviews of the X32 rack.
If you're in a location you haven't used for Wifi before, you should check how many other routers are near and if there's a free channel. We have no problems in the main theater, because it's on the inside of the building. The smaller theaters that are next to neighbours, however, are much more difficult to use Wifi in.

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I guess you get what you pay for sometimes after all. I trust these opinions. Don't go for the XR18 if you need to run live sound. Home studio use where there's no interference might be cool though.
Money's no parameter at all. I'm thoroughly enjoying a TP-link that's only 20 €. It comes with DD-WRT if you want it and it's range is better than my Airport Xpress's. I do prefer Mikrotik for long term installations, or difiecult spots, as they sell a number of 1W routers.

50 Watts would only be useful (and legal) in the desert, or so. Both sides would need to have 50 Watts TX power or it wouldn't get you anything. I've never seen 50W Wifi gear that was real. But I've used boosters in the forest to get VHF or UHF to go up to 5 km. It only needed 4 Watts to get there, but it took an entire day to figure out where to put the antenna's...

And the same goes for Wifi. If the range isn't what you expected, run some radio analysis software. And move the gear about 4 inches both ways to measure signal strength. That can make a lot of difference.

In fact, it's a lot like mic placement
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Old 01-29-2019, 08:50 AM   #44
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If you're in a location you haven't used for Wifi before, you should check how many other routers are near and if there's a free channel. We have no problems in the main theater, because it's on the inside of the building. The smaller theaters that are next to neighbours, however, are much more difficult to use Wifi in.
I do that. And that sounds about right.


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Money's no parameter at all. I'm thoroughly enjoying a TP-link that's only 20 €. It comes with DD-WRT if you want it and it's range is better than my Airport Xpress's. I do prefer Mikrotik for long term installations, or difiecult spots, as they sell a number of 1W routers.
Thanks for the product tips there.

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50 Watts would only be useful (and legal) in the desert, or so. Both sides would need to have 50 Watts TX power or it wouldn't get you anything. I've never seen 50W Wifi gear that was real. But I've used boosters in the forest to get VHF or UHF to go up to 5 km. It only needed 4 Watts to get there, but it took an entire day to figure out where to put the antenna's...
I figured it would be something like that. Appreciate that comment!

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And the same goes for Wifi. If the range isn't what you expected, run some radio analysis software. And move the gear about 4 inches both ways to measure signal strength. That can make a lot of difference.

In fact, it's a lot like mic placement
radio analysis software...
That's what I'm missing. Recommendations?

Always appreciate your comments Cyrano.
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Old 01-29-2019, 09:14 AM   #45
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Just had a look at my Utilities folder...

It's awfully empty. Seems I haven't done anything with Wifi since the last clean install...

I use Wireless diagnostics mostly, available by ALT-clicking the Wifi icon in the menu bar. That gives enough overview in most cases.

If you need more, Netspot will put your routers on a map. Nice to work out how many routers you need to put in and where they should go.

I used to use AirMagnet too, but it seem to have been scooped up by the corporate world (Netscout) and they are set to confuse us, by offering at least a dozen different utils for what one app used to do.

Quite honestly, I don't remember the Mac tools for Wifi. They seem to have gone very commercial or turned into adware. Must be the appstore's influence. Tried a few minutes to find a few names on the appstore, but this didn't even turn up one suggestion. Loads of VPN and photo sync crap, tho...

These days, my colleague who is doing large scale Wifi deployment, uses a cheap router with some open source distro on it to analyse. That thing is put in the location studied and remains there for a few weeks. Data is analysed afterwards.
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Old 01-29-2019, 09:42 AM   #46
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I would need something more hit and run. I found this app iStumbler way back. It shows wi-fi found and what channel it's on and what signal strength. But that's it.

Something that could make a more visual map and showed any signal in the wi-fi range - not just something specifically transmitting wi-fi protocol - would be a great tool.

I took it as far as an antenna mast and a 13db antenna (which flattens the spherical transmission and thus extends it if I understand correctly) and that got me decent results. I know I'm missing a few things though that could probably really help.

I'm always annoyed nowadays when the only place I can find to download some software is the freakin App Store.

If not OSX software, Linux? Maybe that would motivate me more to gear up to jump ship!
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Old 01-29-2019, 11:46 AM   #47
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Going higher with a mast, is very useful with UHF and VHF. It can be useful with Wifi, but the effect is far less.

Just like in acoustics, you're dealing with reflections. And these disturb a clean signal. You need to find the top of the sine wave. But because the wavelength is just centimeters, you just move both tranceivers a bit to find max. signal strength.

Wifi is extremely good with elimination of disturbances. That's why lots of devices can operate simultaneously on the same radio channel. VHF and UHF are comparatively bad at that. Because of the longer wave length, they tend to find transmission paths that follow objects like hills and CAN follow a longer path.

We used to have offices below a saddle roof. The triangular form caused bad reflections. If I'd put a laptop on the left side of my desk, I'd get no reception at all, despite the router being only a few meters away. On the right side of the desk, reception was perfect...

You'll find all you need in the Wifi menu, cause it's basically channel numbers and signal strength you need. The rest is accomplished by walking around. I use my iphone for it, in the rare cases I still use it. The app I use most, is free and called "Wifi mapper". It's not a real serious tool, but it shows interesting stuff, like the approximate distance to the router. Have a look. The iphone is just more convenient when walking around. I used to do it with a Macbook. Sure makes you look geeky

When it comes to working in theatres, you might find interference from stuff that uses the Wifi band, but doesn't show up as a Wifi router. I know one spot where it's the alarm system. I've pointed out to management that it means their alarm system is very, very vulnerable. Of course, they don't believe me... Guess I'll have to buy a Wifi killer to demonstrate it...

What you need most, is experience. Some of my experience dates back to the times before everything was infested with "Free! Wifi!" Way back then, you'd need to look for a nearby router that was open to get connected in the wild. These days, there's 4G. So i got very lazy...
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Old 01-29-2019, 07:26 PM   #48
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For example, are your drum mics in addition to their drum mics?
Yep I will be using my own mics on drums, guitars.

Keyboards, bass, acoustic guitars will all be DI/Split.

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has it been established that the venue will cooperate with your needs, such as getting a signal from them?
Yes the guy that runs it will let me do as I need.

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if the venue has easy digital outs available
There is no digital gear.
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