Old 05-05-2019, 07:17 AM   #1
Edgemeal
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Default v5.976+dev0505 - May 5 2019

v5.976+dev0505 - May 5 2019
+ Project bay: fix column collision between FX parameter and Automation Item tabs [p=2130165]
+ Track templates: preserve MIDI pools within templates on load, but do not pool loaded MIDI with existing MIDI [t=219675]
# MIDI editor: use theme MIDI colormap for CC drawing
# MIDI editor: various velocity and CC editing improvements

Full changelog / Latest pre-releases
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:27 AM   #2
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only problem i see is with my theme unselected midi is not that clear (especially velocity)



http://s000.tinyupload.com/download....98855826115869


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Old 05-05-2019, 08:29 AM   #3
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Re: CCs

Could selected velocities (lollipops) maybe also be highlighted in a similar way as selected CCs (which I quite like btw.)?
Here's a comparison in a dark theme, currently lollipops are barely visible when selected.

old:


now:


edit:
Cross with Subz
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:30 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
# MIDI editor: use theme MIDI colormap for CC drawing
# MIDI editor: various velocity and CC editing improvements
Well, devs, this is only getting better and better! Thanks so much for the improvements!

There´s only a difference regarding my suggestion : CC/other event nodes themselves are not quite brightened, when selected, as velocities. There´s one use-case where it still can get difficult to see a selected event. Take a look :




You can see there that 0 values are hard to see when selected. That´s where the extra-bright color, as in selected velocities, can pay off...

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Old 05-05-2019, 08:31 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Re: CCs

Could selected velocities (lollipops) maybe also be highlighted in a similar way as selected CCs (which I quite like btw.)?
Here's a comparison in a dark theme, currently lollipops are barely visible when selected.
Exactly what I´ve been saying! I´ve just posted my last example before reading your post... I´m using Reaper 5´s default color map right now, but as you show in your images, I experience the same with Gofer´s color maps, which have been my go-to all these years

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Old 05-05-2019, 09:27 AM   #6
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use color map for cc's really helps

I had to mod my color map but that made being able to see the points way better... thanks

one problem was the single px line in the map that used to be black... changed to white now... much better

also in photoshop put about a 45% transparent white layer over the whole map and resaved.... lighter colors on my theme dark ME background... quite visible now....
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:46 AM   #7
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May I ask again that when clicking on the velocity bars/handles, it is the closest previous velocity lollipop that gets selected. I think the order should be:

1st: Selected note(s)/velocity lollipop(s).

2nd: Closest previous velocity lollipop if no note(s) are selected.

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Old 05-05-2019, 10:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
May I ask again that when clicking on the velocity bars/handles, it is the closest previous velocity lollipop that gets selected. I think the order should be:

1st: Selected note(s)/velocity lollipop(s).

2nd: Closest previous velocity lollipop if no note(s) are selected.

I agree. It would be better to select closest velocity bar (lolipop) at left when you click on the note duration line where there is more than 1 line at same velocity.
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:01 AM   #9
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So far, I am really happy with the improvements ...

I am with NoFish, selected lollipops should be easier to disginguish. Tod's order makes sense to me.
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:10 AM   #10
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So I'm a little confused by the velocity length lines. It seems like unnecessary information to me. I already know how long the note is right in the piano roll. Seeing the length also in the velocity lane is very distracting to me and clutters the lane. Also, as velocity is one single point in time, by putting that extra line in you are implying that the velocity has a "length" which it doesn't.

My vote would be to remove it or come up with a less distracting alternative.
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:26 AM   #11
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Velocity lines are useful when you're focusing on just the velocity lane and doing your tweaks there. Wouldn't wanna lose that
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:27 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
So I'm a little confused by the velocity length lines. It seems like unnecessary information to me. I already know how long the note is right in the piano roll. Seeing the length also in the velocity lane is very distracting to me and clutters the lane. Also, as velocity is one single point in time, by putting that extra line in you are implying that the velocity has a "length" which it doesn't.

My vote would be to remove it or come up with a less distracting alternative.
Do you mean totally abort the velocity lollipop bars/handles Klangfarben?

I think it would have to be something awfully good to be a better solution then the bars/handles, which allow us to edit velocities of stacked notes.

But if you've got something in mind, I'm totally open and I'd like to see it.

Personally I have no problem with the way they look right now.
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:28 AM   #13
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Devs, thanks for fixing the mouse modifier behavior for tweaking the velocity, it works much better now!


However please give some attention to Tod's report, it really does mess things up in various ways depending on note lengths of notes with similar velocities...



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Do you mean totally abort the velocity lollipop bars/handles Klangfarben?
No, he means the line that extends from the lollipop to show the length of the note.
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:34 AM   #14
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In the CC lane, when I change the track color, the color of the "bubbles" remains the same as the original track color. I'm on a Mac, Mohave.


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Old 05-05-2019, 11:59 AM   #15
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+1 for Tod's suggestion.

otherwise, this is looking and feeling really good.
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Old 05-05-2019, 12:16 PM   #16
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Default Velocity duration.

Thanks again to the devs for getting the CC lanes envelopes working. This truly is one of the best new features.

I and a few of my composer friends have been discussing the changes made to the velocity lane and we would like to make one minor suggestion. Can we please have an option to turn off the note duration lines in the velocity lane if we don't want to view that new feature.

The velocity direction lines can be distracting visually especially when working with a large orchestral score. They also seem to make selecting and using the mouse to work with velocities more difficult. We understand why some users would like to see the note duration displayed in the velocity lane, so for those users a simple right click checkbox option to display that option would work great.

One argument for not having duration displayed at all is that there is nothing in the MIDI spec dictating velocity duration. For the users that want to see note duration we can see that very clearly in the note editor.

We also understand the devs not wanting to support two ways of working in the cc lanes. (IE. envelopes vs bars) However, We consider this way of viewing velocity duration as a visual option similar to note colors rather that a completely new workflow like envelopes.

Thanks again to the devs for always listening and supporting their users. You guys are on fire right now.
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Old 05-05-2019, 12:19 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Re: CCs

Could selected velocities (lollipops) maybe also be highlighted in a similar way as selected CCs (which I quite like btw.)?
Here's a comparison in a dark theme, currently lollipops are barely visible when selected.

old:


now:


edit:
Cross with Subz
Hi nofish,
I think I found the issue. Velocity colors are taken from the uppermost rows of pixels of the areas for unselected and selected events in the colormap file. Because of the gradient on selected events this row happens to be very dark in my old colormap.

So to brighten the uppermost pixel row for selected events (row 65 in the colormap) seems to do the trick. I was wary that this would mess up the images of selected notes in the piano roll, but it turns out that this row is never used, even with maximum vertical zoom . At least not on my 1920x1080 monitor.

It seems that the files in my stash both look a little different from those pics of yours (unselected vs selected CC events is much clearer in your pic than here), so I'd be very grateful if you could attach that colormap to a post.
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Old 05-05-2019, 12:49 PM   #18
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Hi gofer,
well spotted, I'm pretty sure it's one of yours.
Here you go (-> attachment).
Attached Images
File Type: png midi_note_colormap.png (17.9 KB, 63 views)
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Old 05-05-2019, 01:07 PM   #19
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Devs, I noticed a pretty unusual behavior in event properties in MIDI editor. It's been there probably forever, but since it doesn't feel intuitive, I'll report it.

When you have a channel AT event, and you want to convert it to poly AT event through event properties dialog, the value of channel AT event doesn't get converted correctly. In fact, the channel AT value becomes the note of poly AT event. I would have expected for the value to be retained, then you'd select the note you want.

This makes it really hard to convert what you draw as channel AT into poly AT for a specific note.

Interestingly, this seems to work fine when converting a bunch of CCs to poly AT. Just not when doing channel AT to poly AT, which is a shame.


https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=220558
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Old 05-05-2019, 01:16 PM   #20
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+1 for Tod's suggestion.
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Old 05-05-2019, 01:25 PM   #21
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Randomly, I can't move point or create point inside an unactive MIDI item.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
Randomly, I can't move point or create point inside an unactive MIDI item.
unfortunately, this is the case with several functions.
see https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=220043

---

apologies if this is considered off topic of this pre-cycle, but it keeps coming up as i'm testing CCs and velocity. i can't get past expecting a left mouse click to move the edit cursor in the cc/velocity/envelope lanes. especially given our ability to lasso-select/edit notes from the velocity lane, i expect to be able to move edit cursor in order to preview these notes quickly.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:05 PM   #23
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In an ideal world, we should be able to manipulate inactive MIDI item exactly like active MIDI item.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:15 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
Randomly, I can't move point or create point inside an unactive MIDI item.
i just tested this, but i'm not having this issue. check your midi editor selection/editability settings?

however, i did find an issue.

1- turn snap notes/ccs off
2- draw a curve for a cc
3- turn snap notes/ccs on
4- draw elsewhere in your project. note: expected behavior
5- draw over the curve you drew in in step 1.
issue: unquantized curve overrides the one you're trying to draw with snap on
expected behavior: pre-existing curve is deleted/overwritten by the quantized curve.

note that if you do it in the reverse order, such as i demonstrate in this gif, it works as expected.



-----

while licecapping that, this i noticed that ccs are different colors item-to-item -- why is this? i'd expect different ccs to be different colors, but not from 1 item to another.



-----

and while licecapping THAT, i noticed that you can't extend a midi item's end bound by drawing an envelope in the way that you can by drawing a note.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:22 PM   #25
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Quote:
i just tested this, but i'm not having this issue.
With pitch or MOD ?
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:24 PM   #26
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^ looks like testing this issue spawned a whole little nest of buglets



i noticed that item bounds caused some issues while drawing cc curves over existing curve data. here, i demonstrate the issue by drawing curves quickly over each other. when pre-existing ccs aren't explicitly overwritten by mouse movement, they aren't overwritten in a way that would be expected. maybe this won't be an issue when we are drawing curves in with envelope points instead of discrete points, but this is still worth pointing out
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:26 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
With pitch or MOD ?
pitch, mod, etc - it all works across multiple items on the same track, as shown above.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:36 PM   #28
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Strange.

Here, I try with double right click and right click maintained. Issue with the activated MIDI item, too.

My config : One midi editor per track. Open all MIDI on the same track.

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Old 05-05-2019, 03:37 PM   #29
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here's an issue that arises when you're overdubbing into multiple adjacent midi items.



if you extend a midi item's endpoint over an adjacent midi item, you get a situation where you've got overlapping ccs. if you then draw in this space you're printing ccs on both active and inactive item.

to me, this just continues to point to a solution of optionally dissolving this distinction between active/inactive midi items. just print the midi to the track directly, and avoid all this unnecessary overlap. yes, there are cases where it's very cool and useful, but it shouldn't come at the expense of useful overdub functionality. item bounds should merely be containers for copying/labeling sections of midi, in this scenario.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:39 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
My config : One midi editor per track. Open all MIDI on the same track.
here's me, try and see if you can find what's blocking you:

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Old 05-05-2019, 04:17 PM   #31
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Inside Mouse modifier>MIDI CC event, have you checked "Allow selecting a single event in a CC laine with a mouse click" ?
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:27 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Velocity lines are useful when you're focusing on just the velocity lane and doing your tweaks there. Wouldn't wanna lose that
But what purpose do they serve? There's never a time you are going to have the velocity lane open without the piano roll. So it is redundant information. But worse because it's not really helping edit in a meaningful way. It's just cluttering that lane up, especially if you work with one editor per project and you are trying to edit a lot of notes.

Put a whole bunch of notes in a midi item and now your velocity lane is hard to decipher. It's not clear and concise and displaying accurate information. That's just not a good UI decision.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:27 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
Inside Mouse modifier>MIDI CC event, have you checked "Allow selecting a single event in a CC laine with a mouse click" ?
_yes.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:30 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
But what purpose do they serve? There's never a time you are going to have the velocity lane open without the piano roll. So it is redundant information. But worse because it's not really helping edit in a meaningful way. It's just cluttering that lane up, especially if you work with one editor per project and you are trying to edit a lot of notes.

Put a whole bunch of notes in a midi item and now your velocity lane is hard to decipher. It's not clear and concise and displaying accurate information. That's just not a good UI decision.
disagree. it's just a different sequencing display. i'll be using this method with velocity sensitive sample sets, creating strums etc in which the velocity ramps up or down. having the midi note length helps me more quickly/effortlessly identify which velocity bar belongs to which note. i support a request to make this optional, but i certainly prefer to have them.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:32 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
But what purpose do they serve? There's never a time you are going to have the velocity lane open without the piano roll. So it is redundant information. But worse because it's not really helping edit in a meaningful way. It's just cluttering that lane up, especially if you work with one editor per project and you are trying to edit a lot of notes.

Put a whole bunch of notes in a midi item and now your velocity lane is hard to decipher. It's not clear and concise and displaying accurate information. That's just not a good UI decision.
I absolutely agree. Just imagine having a lot of staccato notes... this really becomes a mess.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:53 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
_yes.
It's very strange. With a clean install, I'm able to reproduce my issue.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:56 PM   #37
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Velocity lines can reduce mouse movement by extending 'grabbing area', e.g. this wasn't possible before without horizontal movement.



But yeah, I also see the counter arguments. Probably best as always: make it an option.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:58 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
I absolutely agree. Just imagine having a lot of staccato notes... this really becomes a mess.
Hi Stevie, could you give an illustration of what you're talking about?

I've done a lot of orchestration in the past but I'm not part of the current flux of folks who are doing mock-ups or movies these days. I'm sure there's something I'm missing here?
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:26 PM   #39
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With regards to the CC points themselves, why can these not be handled the same way as envelope points and velocity lollipops, where the point is empty when unselected/filled when selected? I think this would be very clear. I think maybe I recall seeing someone post awhile back that they thought it looked messy for CCs? But then, we don't have that perception when looking at envelope points, or at least it hasn't been something I've ever seen anyone point out. I certainly never found the way evelopes are rendered to be cluttered or ineffective.

So why not treat CC points the same way graphically, for the sake of consistency and clarity?

=========

Also, I (and perhaps many others who use alternative themes) would greatly appreciate if there was at least an option for velocity stems to be bolder when selected, and single thickness when not. This would enable easy visibility of the note selection that would be effective regardless of how a given theme has chosen to utilize the midi note colour map.

There are advantages to the way that the midi note colour map is set up in some themes, where the colour does not alter based on selection. For myself, the specific colour assignment of each note, whether set to colour according to velocity, or note pitch, or channel etc, is conveying very specific information.

When using colour with this purpose in mind, constancy is preferable, and therefore having the colour of the notes (or velocity stems) change according to selection inhibits the ability to glean information as accurately from the interface.

Up until now, there has been no problem because of the way the velocity bars were rendered (identically to the notes). Now that the new (and beautiful) lollipops are being implemented, the ability to see note selection when viewing the velocity lane has been hampered for those of us who prefer our theme to respect a different approach to the usage of colour in the midi editor.

If we could have an option, it would be fantastic.
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:52 PM   #40
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Default Theme tweaker switch to control whether theme uses MIDI color map for CC drawing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
# MIDI editor: use theme MIDI colormap for CC drawing
I prefer not to have CC drawing use the MIDI colour map in the way that has just been implemented, as I find a simple flat colour is sufficient for CCs, while a given theme may treat notes differently (i.e. in a way that does not lend itself to rendering the CCs). The way this is implemented now, it forces both to be treated the same way, graphically. The midi note color map gradients that are found in many themes are designed to look good at the scale of notes, where the full gradient is rendered in a relatively small vertical space. Carrying this over to the CC lanes doesn't always work as well.

Granted, for some themes this will work very well and look awesome, so in recognition of such disparate preferences, perhaps the theme tweaker could include a switch and a blend/alpha mode for the CC selection highlight. I am thinking of the "theme blend/alpha" dialog as is used for locked tracks, time selection fill mode, heck even the CCs displayed on a media item have an alpha adjustment. The switch would select between the way that has been implemented in this release, or using blend/alpha mode to determine the way that CCs are highlighted. The switch could be displayed the same way that the existent "theme override" switches are displayed.

It's not called the tweaker for nothing right? Let us tweak! Surely CCs are important enough in MIDI work to justify adding this?

Even just the switch would be sufficient, frankly I simply prefer how the CCs were being drawn in dev0503. It was actually perfect with the Default Commala theme mod, although I can see that other themes certainly benefit from this change. So, even just a switch in the theme tweaker to select between the dev0503 implementation or using the midi note colour map to draw the CCs.

Of course, adding the blend/alpha mode would be ideal, giving increased flexibility for themers to get things just right.

Last edited by Commala; 05-05-2019 at 09:21 PM.
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