Old 05-05-2019, 10:53 PM   #41
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I absolutely agree. Just imagine having a lot of staccato notes... this really becomes a mess.
Your staccato notes wouldn't be very long now, would they?
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:54 PM   #42
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while licecapping that, this i noticed that ccs are different colors item-to-item -- why is this? i'd expect different ccs to be different colors, but not from 1 item to another.
You have set the MIDI editor coloring mode to "media item" or "source"?
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Old 05-06-2019, 03:36 AM   #43
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^ i thought i had everything set to be colored by track, and i can't for the life of me find a setting for ccs. i'll keep looking, but if you want to point me at the obvious, i'd appreciate it.

edit: ok - the coloring settings apply to the colored area below the cc line, not the cc point itself. "Color notes/CC by track custom color" is enabled but i still get different items showing the same cc's flagellate head as a different color depending on which item i'm in.

my expected behavior would be that a cc's points are colored the same way regardless of what item they're in (and that multiple items can't overlap the same cc).
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Old 05-06-2019, 04:23 AM   #44
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I don't find the horizontal velocity lines extremely useful. I can work without them just fine, and the clutter they create may be worse than the features it provides. Just my initial opinion. Maybe in some time I won't be able to live without them
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Old 05-06-2019, 04:34 AM   #45
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Maybe they should have lower opacity? They're definitely useful, at least to me (but apparently some others as well).
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:06 AM   #46
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i'm getting unpredictable behavior while trying to edit velocities in -- big surprise -- inactive items. it's hard to pin down, but sometimes events cant get selected. other times, the wrong data points get selected. if you don't see this occurring, zoom out - sometimes the point that gets moved is far, far away. in the case of this gif, it happens nearby - but not under mouse

i've noticed that the mouse cursor changes / doesn't change unpredictably as well, in that sometimes i get a double headed arrow while mousing over the velocity circle (yet am unable to click it)

apologies for a lack of reproducible behavior, if i find the steps i'll post em.

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Old 05-06-2019, 05:25 AM   #47
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more inactive item issues:

1- record midi into an item in a track
2- split item in 2 parts
3- enter 1 midi item
4- attempt to select velocity flags in other item via mouseclick
5- ISSUE: cannot. NOTE: lassoing these other-item flags works.
6- switch to the other item from within midi editor
7- NOTE: after doing this, you can select flags in other items via mouseclick.



edit: zooming out while performing step 4 shows that unrelated midi notes in other items are effected by attempts to select/change velocity:

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Old 05-06-2019, 05:29 AM   #48
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I don't find the horizontal velocity lines extremely useful. I can work without them just fine, and the clutter they create may be worse than the features it provides. Just my initial opinion. Maybe in some time I won't be able to live without them
I think they are very useful but for sure should be an option "it's the reaper way!"
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:50 AM   #49
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here's a picture of the new velocity display while viewing many midi notes from many items across several tracks.

display issue: it'd be more consistent/nice if the flags' circles obeyed transparency rules set in the midi editor prefs.

in this image, only the black flags should be so crystal clear. the other tracks' flags should be a little more muted, the way the other notes are.



related: there's a huge performance hit associated with this type of midi display, btw. a project that plays fine while the midi editor is closed gets tons of buffer underruns while the midi editor is open and displaying midi from multiple tracks.

changing this to "open all midi on the same track" eliminates this issue, but then you miss out on all that great visual feedback.
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Old 05-06-2019, 06:17 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
related: there's a huge performance hit associated with this type of midi display, btw. a project that plays fine while the midi editor is closed gets tons of buffer underruns while the midi editor is open and displaying midi from multiple tracks.

changing this to "open all midi on the same track" eliminates this issue, but then you miss out on all that great visual feedback.
There are options to disable anticipative FX when MIDI editors are open (prefs/buffering), that's probably the cause? Perhaps that option needs to allow anticipative FX when secondary editors are open...
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Old 05-06-2019, 06:28 AM   #51
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There are options to disable anticipative FX when MIDI editors are open (prefs/buffering), that's probably the cause? Perhaps that option needs to allow anticipative FX when secondary editors are open...
thanks, yeah i'm remembering now that ED told me something similar once. just now, i tested disabling anticipative fx again, but i'm not seeing much improvement (if any). granted this is a fairly heavy project, but i wouldn't expect an open midi editor to cause as much mayhem as i'm experiencing.

i could record a video on my phone of the 2 playback states: arrange (no buffer underruns) and midi editor with all the track info shown (buffer runs aplenty) but other than "proof," it probably wouldn't be useful.
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Old 05-06-2019, 08:22 AM   #52
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Your staccato notes wouldn't be very long now, would they?
Not true at all. Just because a staccato note sounds short doesn't mean the midi note itself is short. They can completely vary in size.
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:13 AM   #53
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I absolutely agree. Just imagine having a lot of staccato notes... this really becomes a mess.
I agree with you both. I see absolute no real workflow reason to have this kind of redundant data displayed. It's completely useless and detracting IMHO.

However, there are some users on this forum that requested this feature because I believe they saw it in Presonus Studio One. I don't want to discount any users requests because perhaps theirs is some reason it's useful to them that I'm just not seeing.

This brings me back to my original point. Because we have a couple of users that requested the feature and several users that hope this new feature dies a horrible death, I believe the devs should make this a simple right click view option in the velocity lane. This option would be similar to the way note colors have different options of being displayed.

Reaper has functioned with and without this feature. So I see no reason why the devs would not want make either way of working possible. It also seems like a fairly easy thing to code into a right click context menu so I hope the devs agree.
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:17 AM   #54
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I don't find the horizontal velocity lines extremely useful. I can work without them just fine, and the clutter they create may be worse than the features it provides. Just my initial opinion. Maybe in some time I won't be able to live without them
Agreed, I personally don't see any benefit to them. I still think this should be option to view or not view the horizontal lines for the very small percentage of users that asked for this feature.
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:17 AM   #55
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I see absolute no real workflow reason to have this kind of redundant data displayed. It's completely useless and detracting IMHO.
looks we all agree that option would be best, so let's not be hyperbolic (because "hyperbole will destroy us all"). nofish demonstrated how having a larger grab area for velocity adjustments makes this demonstrably non-completely useless.

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Old 05-06-2019, 09:18 AM   #56
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I think they are very useful but for sure should be an option "it's the reaper way!"
+1 Exactly my thoughts. It seems very anti-reaper to force a user to have to work a specific way they they don't want to.
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:23 AM   #57
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Maybe they should have lower opacity? They're definitely useful, at least to me (but apparently some others as well).
I super curious as to how you are finding this feature useful. How would viewing redundant midi data like note length be useful? I can't think of a scenario where I would have the velocity lanes open but not be able to see the notes themselves in the piano roll.
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:25 AM   #58
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Isn't the advantage mostly when notes are stacked on top of each other? In this example, it would be just as good not to have the tails. Maybe I'm glossing over something.
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:30 AM   #59
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grab space. aiming for the circles sucks. before the flags i didn't even use the velocity lane because it was easier to just lasso notes and use a mouse modifier to adjust velocity.
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:32 AM   #60
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Not true at all. Just because a staccato note sounds short doesn't mean the midi note itself is short. They can completely vary in size.
I have to agree with Kangfarben here. The visual detraction is even more difficult to deal with if the user does not quantize the ends of short staccato notes.

I sometimes quantize only the note starts of staccato notes because I want my short strings for example to be on the grid but I want the release sample to to slightly varied. This gives the illusion that a human played the part while still being on the grid.
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:38 AM   #61
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grab space. aiming for the circles sucks. before the flags i didn't even use the velocity lane because it was easier to just lasso notes and use a mouse modifier to adjust velocity.
Exactly! Why select notes in a tiny velocity lane when you can select them more accurately in the piano roll. I don't even adjust velocity in the velocity lane very often unless I'm drawing a velocity ramp. There are much easier ways of manipulating velocities in the piano roll with mouse modifiers.

The lollipops on top of the velocity points are easy enjoy to grab and edit. The lollipop idea is something that's very similar to the way Digital Performer works. It's a totally fine way of editing velocities. I'm still really struggling to see the need an extra bit of redundant visual data just for velocity selection?
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:41 AM   #62
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grab space. aiming for the circles sucks. before the flags i didn't even use the velocity lane because it was easier to just lasso notes and use a mouse modifier to adjust velocity.
There are a few friends of mine that are on Digital Performer that prefer to have the velocity lollipop dots. I think that's a fine addition even if it's easier to adjust velocities in the piano roll. It's the horizontal flags that I personally can't find a good reason to add as a feature.
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:43 AM   #63
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Isn't the advantage mostly when notes are stacked on top of each other? In this example, it would be just as good not to have the tails. Maybe I'm glossing over something.
As mentioned, grab space / less horizontal mouse movement -> faster editing.
When stacked is another advantage, yes.
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:48 AM   #64
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Not true at all. Just because a staccato note sounds short doesn't mean the midi note itself is short. They can completely vary in size.
This can be true, especially when played in, but the very nature of a staccato note will still be rather short. When playing in staccato I can't imagine holding 16th, 8th, ore even quarter notes out as long as half or whole notes.

But that doesn't matter Klangfarben, if you and Stevie say it's a problem for you, I believe you. If you get a chance, could you please post an illustration. In mccrabney's picture above it appears he has 6, 7, or more midi tracks in the visible mode and that indeed can certainly look rather messy.

Quote:
in this image, only the black flags should be so crystal clear. the other tracks' flags should be a little more muted, the way the other notes are.
I agree with you mccrabney, I just checked the midi editor with 11 tracks in the visible mode and the track that is in the editing mode does need to stand out more.
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:59 AM   #65
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The lollipops on top of the velocity points are easy enjoy to grab and edit.
no, they're not. you could count the number of pixels used on one hand [technically untrue]. i prefer them to bars used in previous REAPER versions, but the tail makes them far more usable. if you ask for a description of how this function is useful, and then reject answers, i don't see much point in going back over this. just re-enforces the need to make it optional, and i don't care what the default is

Tod, i would say that if the opacity of these new velocity displays reflected your midi editor prefs, it'd look just fine to have all of that velocity data down there
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:15 AM   #66
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This can be true, especially when played in, but the very nature of a staccato note will still be rather short. When playing in staccato I can't imagine holding 16th, 8th, ore even quarter notes out as long as half or whole notes.
I highly encourage you to use more harp then in your compositions
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:21 AM   #67
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no, they're not. you could count the number of pixels used on one hand [technically untrue]. i prefer them to bars used in previous REAPER versions, but the tail makes them far more usable. if you ask for a description of how this function is useful, and then reject answers, i don't see much point in going back over this. just re-enforces the need to make it optional, and i don't care what the default is

Tod, i would say that if the opacity of these new velocity displays reflected your midi editor prefs, it'd look just fine to have all of that velocity data down there
Thanks for the feedback Mccrabney. I do agree that there are some special cases where selecting the lollipop tops of the velocity data is faster in the lane than in the piano roll.

For example if you have a bunch of staccato notes that are at 127 velocity and some that are at much lower velocity like 40. Its very easy to select all the high velocity data without selecting the lower velocity data. This would be much harder to do in the piano roll. So I believe the lollipops are a great addition. I still haven't seen a case where selecting the horizontal lines/ velocity flags are any faster than selecting the desired notes in the piano roll. If a user really prefers using the velocity lane and never wants to use the piano roll to select the data for some reason, why not use marque select with a click and drag. I really haven't seen an instance where marque click and drag over the velocity lollipops is difficult. If it is some how difficult on say a super small laptop screen, again why not use the much much larger piano roll section of the midi editor?

This again brings me by to my original point. I personally don't see the advantage but I do not want to discount any other users experience because I may just be to ignorant to see the advantage. Therefore, I believe it should be an option to view or not view the velocity flags instead of forcing all users to work a specific way.
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:24 AM   #68
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I highly encourage you to use more harp then in your compositions
Yeah, harp is one of those midi instruments that sometimes sounds better to hold out the length of the midi note much longer than it the initial sound of the midi note if you wan the reverb tail or resonance of the string to ring out.
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:33 AM   #69
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For example if you have a bunch of staccato notes that are at 127 velocity and some that are at much lower velocity like 40. Its very easy to select all the high velocity data without selecting the lower velocity data. This would be much harder to do in the piano roll.
People are doing things like this by hand and not using scripts? I think I would murder myself. Same thing with selecting inner notes, etc.

I also don't want to discount how others work but in my world if you are doing most of your velocity editing by hand in the velocity lane, you are dead meat.
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:33 AM   #70
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I definitely agree that the horizontal velocity handles are useful, no question. I'd also love an option for it, and I can see myself switching between them being on and off depending on whether I'm editing one track, where they would be most welcome, or multiple tracks at once, where they may indeed clutter things too much as others have pointed out.
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:38 AM   #71
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I use Alt dragging on the notes most of the times to edit selected notes velocities without using the velocity lane.

I also use my script MIDI dynamics a lot to edit velocities to compress or expand ranges.

Don't worry we will be able to create a script that opens another new MIDI editor just to edit velocities without lollipops or anything joking...
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:46 AM   #72
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If you and Stevie say it's a problem for you, I believe you. If you get a chance, could you please post an illustration. In mccrabney's picture above it appears he has 6, 7, or more midi tracks in the visible mode and that indeed can certainly look rather messy.


Here is an example of how confusing it can be to select velocity by there flags rather than in the piano roll or via the lollipop nodes at the top of the velocities. As you can see in the video I have a very long midi not that I'm trying to select with just the flags and can't because there other notes with the same velocity played after it. It's much easier to view and select notes based on note length in the piano roll piano roll. There are plenty of key commands and fun velocity scripts out there that make selecting much easier than the extra fumbling around with the mouse in the velocity lane.

If any one is interested I can send over some useful custom velocity scripts.
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:52 AM   #73
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Here is an example of how confusing it can be to select velocity by there flags rather than in the piano roll or via the lollipop nodes at the top of the velocities. As you can see in the video I have a very long midi not that I'm trying to select with just the flags and can't because there other notes with the same velocity played after it. It's much easier to view and select notes based on note length in the piano roll piano roll. There are plenty of key commands and fun velocity scripts out there that make selecting much easier than the extra fumbling around with the mouse in the velocity lane.
Yes, to me the above is a visual nightmare. I very much rely on seeing accurate information in the velocity lane. The above to me does not reflect accurate information at all. It's very misleading and very cluttered.
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Old 05-06-2019, 11:12 AM   #74
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Here is an example of how confusing it can be to select velocity by there flags rather than in the piano roll or via the lollipop nodes at the top of the velocities. As you can see in the video I have a very long midi not that I'm trying to select with just the flags and can't because there other notes with the same velocity played after it. It's much easier to view and select notes based on note length in the piano roll piano roll. There are plenty of key commands and fun velocity scripts out there that make selecting much easier than the extra fumbling around with the mouse in the velocity lane.

If any one is interested I can send over some useful custom velocity scripts.
Well you are trying to select by lassoing and it doesn't work that way. If you'd just left clicked on the bar you would have selected the long note. At least that's the way it is now.

Besides, this is a classic example of where it's better to just select the note and then adjust the velocity.
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Old 05-06-2019, 11:19 AM   #75
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Well you are trying to select by lassoing and it doesn't work that way. If you'd just left clicked on the bar you would have selected the long note. At least that's the way it is now.

Besides, this is a classic example of where it's better to just select the note and then adjust the velocity.
Sure, but are you saying this makes sense to you visually?? The velocity lane needs to do one thing very well. Visually represent what the actual individual velocities really are. Look at the middle of the midi item where the notes are closer together. I literally can't make sense of what is going on there. That makes my head explode.

I would not be able to use this at all. Maybe this helps some people who edit individual velocities by hand one at a time, but for the rest of us, this would make working near impossible. I have to clearly see at all times what is going on in the velocity lane which means it needs to be represented accurately and clean. This is not clean. This is a mess.
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Old 05-06-2019, 11:19 AM   #76
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I highly encourage you to use more harp then in your compositions
I highly encourage you to set the Release knob of the envelope for the harp to max
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Old 05-06-2019, 11:23 AM   #77
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I highly encourage you to set the Release knob of the envelope for the harp to max
Really, ED? Harp is one of those instruments you generally aren't going to quantize a lot so note lengths are always going to vary. Where you set the release knob has nothing to do with that.
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Old 05-06-2019, 12:05 PM   #78
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Well, at least for staccato articulations if you do that you can just write short notes and stuff would ring out properly all the way. Anyways, offtopic
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Old 05-06-2019, 12:08 PM   #79
Tod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Really, ED? Harp is one of those instruments you generally aren't going to quantize a lot so note lengths are always going to vary. Where you set the release knob has nothing to do with that.
ED is basically talking about turning the samples into "one shot" samples.

I think we've got multiple misunderstandings here, all around, that's causing us to be needlessly quibbling here.

One thing is sure, for some, the horz bars will have a great advantage while others not so much.

I do think it would be better for the bars to not necessarily be the length of the notes.

Maybe having the option for "no bars" along with choices for the length, like 16th, 8th, quarter, etc..
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Old 05-06-2019, 12:57 PM   #80
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today's build:
+ MIDI editor: add option to display note length in velocity lane

closing the discussion about horizontal lines on velocities
thank you for listening!
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