Old 05-06-2019, 12:56 PM   #41
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Oh man! This looks fucking clean.
Probably gonna be my next theme if i can control the colors of the waveforms
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Old 05-06-2019, 01:10 PM   #42
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Probably gonna be my next theme if i can control the colors of the waveforms
What is the theme?
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Old 05-06-2019, 02:50 PM   #43
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What is the theme?
Superior Theme. Inspired by Superior Drummer. It's currently being tested in the French forum.
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Old 05-06-2019, 02:54 PM   #44
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Superior Theme. Inspired by Superior Drummer. It's currently being tested in the French forum.
Is it free?
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:23 PM   #45
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I know. People don't use it, because WT doesn't listen to them.
It's not about my taste, but about design. Are you aware of design? Coachz said the wisest words here. Why just not simplify things, so almost everyone could change the theme? In this case it wouldn't be so hurtful and less people would complain.
It's not WT's business, but he is powerful enough to ask Justin.
I suspect you are completely oversimplifying the technical challenge. It's what people who know absolutely nothing about webpage design always say: Why not just make it super easy to create web pages so that everybody can make any kind of web pages??

Well.. there ARE super easy to use web page creation things.. and they are always 1) extremely limited in their capabilities and 2) start out with a basic template with tons of stuff you can't change.

If you want to have a lot of freedom in what you can change, it's no longer easy to use.

I suspect this is the exact same with Reaper. Thus we have WALTER and now scripting.

Scripting is actually the step that you are asking for. You just have to be content with whatever the script allows you to do. I'm sure there will be super advanced scripts for quickly customizing a lot of things, once V6 has been out in the wild for a year or two.

TL;DR

You can't have your cake and eat it. It's either simplistic and simple or complex. This has always been the case if you want control over something.
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:26 PM   #46
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And that is something I don't get. I saw blankfiles' Superior theme and it looked amazing. It doesn't have to be the same, because its a replica of Superior Drummer. But it looks consistent. And it would be a good starting point for a really pleasing default V6 theme. Why does Cockos not hire a person like blankfiles to make the design while WhiteTie creates the bone structure of the default theme?

.. and this just shows how taste varies.

EDIT: thought you meant another theme. Yes, blankfiles' superior theme does look clean which is nice. I don't however agree with the contrast and some other choices. My point is, this is what WT meant by saying it's not possible to design a default theme by comity. Tastes vary so much.

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Old 05-06-2019, 09:46 PM   #47
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What is the purpose of the thread, if White Tie won't read it?
That is exactly the purpose, isn't it? To stop wasting White Tie's time repeating moot points about design decisions in the testing thread.
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Old 05-06-2019, 11:48 PM   #48
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well guys lets see where the Reaper 6 theme will go when it reaches beta and later stages
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Old 05-06-2019, 11:58 PM   #49
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Is it free?
Don't know but for sure I will donate to him! Bought from him iLogic V2 and I am using Hydra now which he gave it for free.
Hydra is so clean and simple to the eyes.
Looking forward to Superior theme. It looks cleaner than Hydra.
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Old 05-07-2019, 12:35 AM   #50
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Is it free?
I read that Blankfiles planned to give the theme away for free. And to the people who criticize the lack of contrast etc. As I already mentioned, its not about the colors or contrast, its about consistency. The theme looks homogeneous and pleasing. Its not stressful on the first sight.

And to the people who agree with WhiteTie that its impossible to participate the community in that process: I think, there would be ways to lead ideas and concepts in a good direction. With polls, discussions and contests.
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Old 05-07-2019, 01:38 AM   #51
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I suspect you are completely oversimplifying the technical challenge. It's what people who know absolutely nothing about webpage design always say: Why not just make it super easy to create web pages so that everybody can make any kind of web pages??
Webpage is easy to create. I hate this WYSIWYG shit, but that's not what I'm talking about.
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Scripting is actually the step that you are asking for.
Well maybe, but now the theme is limited by its resources. Reaper theme is an archive containing images and rtfconfig.txt file, so you can't change something inside Reaper. WALTER is a bad engine (Justin's words and mine also), so theming should be completely rewritten. That's my opinion.
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Old 05-07-2019, 01:39 AM   #52
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That is exactly the purpose, isn't it? To stop wasting White Tie's time repeating moot points about design decisions in the testing thread.
So I go away, cause nothing will change. You should do the same.
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Old 05-07-2019, 01:41 AM   #53
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As I already mentioned, its not about the colors or contrast, its about consistency.
THIS!

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I read that Blankfiles planned to give the theme away for free.
Thanks.
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Old 05-07-2019, 03:38 AM   #54
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I suspect you are completely oversimplifying the technical challenge. It's what people who know absolutely nothing about webpage design always say: Why not just make it super easy to create web pages so that everybody can make any kind of web pages??
YES!

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Webpage is easy to create. I hate this WYSIWYG shit, but that's not what I'm talking about.
Webpage, yes. Comparing REAPER gui design to a webpage is asinine. Complete, fully functioning website for e.g. a large online retail business, is a very large and complicated project requiring a team of experienced professionals. REAPER should be thought of similarly.

Let us not confuse access to the Justin/White Tie through this forum, or our enthusiasm for REAPER as a product, with any authority in a discussion on a complicated topic that most of us have no more knowledge of than we do rocket science. Hell, I was real-life laser scientist, which automatically means I probably know more about rocket science than almost everyone on this forum who isn't actually a rocket scientist. But I'll never dare to tell a rocket scientists how to do their job. Can we all try to remember that and give poor White Tie and Justin a break?
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Old 05-07-2019, 04:38 AM   #55
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Webpage is easy to create. I hate this WYSIWYG shit, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Well maybe, but now the theme is limited by its resources. Reaper theme is an archive containing images and rtfconfig.txt file, so you can't change something inside Reaper. WALTER is a bad engine (Justin's words and mine also), so theming should be completely rewritten. That's my opinion.
That's my point also. Theming should be re-written into something that can be easily manipulated
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Old 05-07-2019, 04:52 AM   #56
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That's my point also. Theming should be re-written into something that can be easily manipulated
It would be for a price of limited flexibility (easy to modify but limited feature-wise) or it would require to write specialized GUI application for theming within DAW. It's hard to justify any of them.

Some one already mentioned web page as a comparable subject. If you want to create professionally looking web page, which is flexible, features a lot of functionalities, you need to be really skilled, yes: in programing.
The same in case of theming. If flexibility and wide coverage of functionalities is needed, you cannot do that without programing (doesn't matter in which language)
IMO current theming in Reaper is easy enough. If some one cannot handle it, then sorry, but nobody promised that any common Reaper user will be able to create new or modify existing themes. Reaper is a DAW, not theming program.

I would rather stick on requesting solid default theme than any changes to theming engine (maybe except of proper support for HighDPI/big monitors and ability do skin what is not already skinable)

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Old 05-07-2019, 05:07 AM   #57
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He did say he was hoping for the script to be Frankel'ed sometime, but what ever dev time goes for themeing, and who knows how complicated this is? the less time for more API/features/possibilities for our coders to make even more cool stuff'ies is one thought, be carefull what we wish for.
The white selected item BG is out of there, not practical for my beatmatching colo(U)r obvious'ness and I can change that myself. &
Think WT have handeled all our whine great so far. *credits*
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Old 05-07-2019, 05:25 AM   #58
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It would be for a price of limited flexibility (easy to modify but limited feature-wise) or it would require to write specialized GUI application for theming within DAW. It's hard to justify any of them.

Some one already mentioned web page as a comparable subject. If you want to create professionally looking web page, which is flexible, features a lot of functionalities, you need to be really skilled, yes: in programing.
The same in case of theming. If flexibility and wide coverage of functionalities is needed, you cannot do that without programing (doesn't matter in which language)
IMO current theming in Reaper is easy enough. If some one cannot handle it, then sorry, but nobody promised that any common Reaper user will be able to create new or modify existing themes. Reaper is a DAW, not theming program.

I would rather stick on requesting solid default theme than any changes to theming engine (maybe except of proper support for HighDPI/big monitors and ability do skin what is not already skinable)
I would be fine with the Visual Basic.Net equivalent of a theming language. It would be very approachable by beginners and yet virtually as powerful as C sharp. Also to be clear I want the theme to be something you program not just script so it would be powerful but not so cryptic as it is now.
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Old 05-07-2019, 05:46 AM   #59
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I would be fine with the Visual Basic.Net equivalent of a theming language. It would be very approachable by beginners and yet virtually as powerful as C sharp. Also to be clear I want the theme to be something you program not just script so it would be powerful but not so cryptic as it is now.
I wouldn't bet on VB.Net as easier language than current approach. In fact, if one can program, he can do that in any language. It's a matter of learning the syntax. I cannot say Walter is something hard to learn. What can be improved is its documentation. Today documentation is scattered across official reference documentation which is incomplete and WTs guides which don't cover all aspects.

yes.. it's not easy for a musician who just need to make small changes to existing theme to his needs. Especially starting from WT default theme which is obfuscated by using a lot of trans-variables. But I don;t think any other language would change it. Even if whole concept of theming would change, it doesn't mean scripting it would be easier. Actually you even looking for programming a theme rather than scripting. I'm sure it would be even more complex for general users (not talking about non-functional impacts, like performance drop).

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Old 05-07-2019, 06:03 AM   #60
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I wouldn't bet on VB.Net as easier language than current approach. In fact, if one can program, he can do that in any language. It's a matter of learning the syntax. I cannot say Walter is something hard to learn. What can be improved is its documentation. Today documentation is scattered across official reference documentation which is incomplete and WTs guides which don't cover all aspects.

yes.. it's not easy for a musician who just need to make small changes to existing theme to his needs. Especially starting from WT default theme which is obfuscated by using a lot of trans-variables. But I don;t think any other language would change it. Even if whole concept of theming would change, it doesn't mean scripting it would be easier.
I didn't mean to code it in Visual Basic. Net. My exact words were a Visual Basic. Net equivalent meaning some language that is very approachable if you're saying that Walter is currently able to do all of this then all we need is better documentation right?
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Old 05-07-2019, 06:37 AM   #61
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Let us not confuse access to the Justin/White Tie through this forum, or our enthusiasm for REAPER as a product, with any authority in a discussion on a complicated topic that most of us have no more knowledge of than we do rocket science. Hell, I was real-life laser scientist, which automatically means I probably know more about rocket science than almost everyone on this forum who isn't actually a rocket scientist. But I'll never dare to tell a rocket scientists how to do their job. Can we all try to remember that and give poor White Tie and Justin a break?
A rough analogy. We have no relation to rocket science, therefore, obviously, we cannot give advice to rocket scienеntiests. But. We work in a specific program and use the interface of this program every day. Also, some of us use several programs, which makes it possible to compare. I am not a great specialist in design, but I have a logic and a sense of taste.

In the end, for whom is all this now being created, if user opinions are not taken into account?(a rhetorical question)
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:20 AM   #62
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I didn't mean to code it in Visual Basic. Net. My exact words were a Visual Basic. Net equivalent meaning some language that is very approachable if you're saying that Walter is currently able to do all of this then all we need is better documentation right?
With current theming API and considering that programming might be hard for some (for most) regardless chosen language - yes... For those who are able to program, the main problem is documentation. It's not unachievable though: It took me a single month to learn it to modify other theme, fixing found bugs in theme as well as reporting issues with theming engine. But i'm a programmer. It's hard to expect such skills from music composers and producers. They shouldn't care about it.

To make it clear I'm far from suggesting that perfect documentation can makes theming to be honey&butter for general users.
For sure we would benefit from more mature language in case of accessing to more low-level API. But again: it wouldn't mean that theming will turn easier for users.

IMO users would benefit most from some kind of visual theme designer - but as I mentioned before, the cost of its development is not justifiable.

And TBH, I'm really surprised that theming is a such major feature of Reaper. Also surprising that it's so flexible. I really don't know any other program (from big ones) with such mature theming engine available, relaying on users work.
Probably it's a consequence of weak default theme. Or maybe it went different way: theming came first easing pressure from default theme. Counting on users who will do their themes.
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:22 AM   #63
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I don't see a point in a discussion without Cockos or WT.
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:25 AM   #64
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There is no other place to have the discussion.
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:44 AM   #65
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There is no other place to have the discussion.
...except previous thread.
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:54 AM   #66
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Themes can be written in a way that makes editing/modding relatively straightforward - WT did an awesome job of that with the V5 theme.

It would be technically possible to make a much more bare-bones theme framework that could work with a visual editor, similar to the GUI Builder for my script library, but the amount of effort + testing + fixing + maintenance involved is likely to outweigh the benefits it offer.

IMO the largest barrier to people tinkering with themes is the relatively poor documentation. Everything you can do is documented... well, mostly... but there isn't one comprehensive guide people can refer to, and everybody writes their themes differently so there are no standards or conventions to follow.
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:47 AM   #67
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Themes can be written in a way that makes editing/modding relatively straightforward - WT did an awesome job of that with the V5 theme.

It would be technically possible to make a much more bare-bones theme framework that could work with a visual editor, similar to the GUI Builder for my script library, but the amount of effort + testing + fixing + maintenance involved is likely to outweigh the benefits it offer.

IMO the largest barrier to people tinkering with themes is the relatively poor documentation. Everything you can do is documented... well, mostly... but there isn't one comprehensive guide people can refer to, and everybody writes their themes differently so there are no standards or conventions to follow.
Is there anything people like me can do to help with inspiring them to make a much more bare-bones theme framework or to help with documentation? I like to be part of the solution and not just whine.
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Old 05-07-2019, 10:00 AM   #68
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Make a thread and post in there stuff, you know about Themeing. So we have at least a thread with a collection of information about themeing.

Another thing would be to browse through the forum and gather all information and posts one can find about it.

Edit: If you want, you can post that into my Reaper-Internals-thread, which is intended to be a collection for such information.
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Old 05-07-2019, 10:14 AM   #69
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It's confounding that the documentation hasn't been collected anyway. I mean, is WALTER a thing or isn't it?

"We'll make it easy for you by creating WALTER, but make it impossible for you by not documenting WALTER. Now piss off." LOL
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Old 05-07-2019, 10:23 AM   #70
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Is there anything people like me can do to help with inspiring them to make a much more bare-bones theme framework or to help with documentation? I like to be part of the solution and not just whine.
We definitely could do the documentation! I could host it if need be
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Old 05-07-2019, 10:30 AM   #71
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I just realized that the WALTER guide is 7 years old: http://www.houseofwhitetie.com/reape...mers_guide.pdf
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Old 05-07-2019, 10:44 AM   #72
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I just realized that the WALTER guide is 7 years old: http://www.houseofwhitetie.com/reape...mers_guide.pdf
Yes, it's good but needs an update.
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Old 05-07-2019, 11:00 AM   #73
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Even just having a link available on the SDK page would be nice. The theming and JSFX documentation on there is really not in the friendliest format to begin with: https://www.reaper.fm/sdk/walter/
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Old 05-07-2019, 11:16 AM   #74
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Even just having a link available on the SDK page would be nice. The theming and JSFX documentation on there is really not in the friendliest format to begin with: https://www.reaper.fm/sdk/walter/
And it's outdated.
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Old 05-07-2019, 11:24 AM   #75
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Besides there is some of the "extra-documentation" in several threads of the forum ...

I also believe everything might need to be reformulated in a certain extent. It should be written (ALL of it) as if the the reader has no idea about these matters. I guess the right moment would be when the new default theme is really finished. I also consider that having both an easy and comprehensive documentation is a really hard work to do. Just my thoughts ...
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Old 05-07-2019, 11:35 AM   #76
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It should be written (ALL of it) as if the the reader has no idea about these matters.
Makes total sense.
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Old 05-07-2019, 12:13 PM   #77
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it sounds like you guys know exactly how to help. Looking forward to the new documentation on theming. Thanks guys!
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Old 05-07-2019, 12:19 PM   #78
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In my case ... If English were my first language (and I knew what I should tell), I would be glad to help

What I said about "easiness" is because I have trouble to understand the documentation, I guess, because I am not so good in theming, walter and so on ... and because of English.
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Old 05-07-2019, 12:25 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicSounds View Post
it sounds like you guys know exactly how to help. Looking forward to the new documentation on theming. Thanks guys!
We're hoping you would do it.
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Old 05-07-2019, 12:44 PM   #80
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In no way I mean to offend but he might ... EpicSounds has got a good command of English and he is a good teacher too
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