Old 05-17-2019, 05:58 AM   #1
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Default v5.978+dev0517 - May 17 2019

v5.978+dev0517 - May 17 2019
  • + ReaScript: support get/set selected state for automation item points
  • # MIDI editor: slightly different shape for selected vs unselected notes, velocity, CC events
  • # Reascript: fix underlying envelope point index adjustment when automation item edge attachment options are enabled [p=2135488]
This thread is for pre-release features discussion. Use the Feature Requests forum for other requests.

Changelog - Pre-Releases

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:05 AM   #2
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v5.978+dev0517 - May 17 2019
[*]# MIDI editor: slightly different shape for selected vs unselected notes, velocity, CC events
Whereas I really like the selected status of CCs, I'm not fond of the rounded note shape (unselected). Note event boundaries have to be clearly distinguishable at all times. With the rounded shape it's really hard to tell if they sit on the grid or not.
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:06 AM   #3
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Depends on how rounded they are. FL Studio has no problems with that. But the notes are rounded both when selected and unselected. From the look of things it's about the same in Reaper as it is in FLS. Example. Reaper is actually less rounded.

I think this needs to be an option. I really dislike the shapes changing on selection.


Also there seems to be a visual discrepancy: for velocities, selected lollipop heads have a white fill, but for CCs they don't have the white fill. Feels inconsistent.



EDIT: Actually seems like a weird hue shift, as the color is different depending on coloring mode. Hmmm... intentional, or?

Last edited by EvilDragon; 05-17-2019 at 06:17 AM.
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:11 AM   #4
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That's how it looks like:

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Old 05-17-2019, 06:12 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I think this needs to be an option. I really dislike the shapes changing on selection.
Yeah, same. It's nothing that gives me immediate and clear information about selection status.
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:36 AM   #6
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I hope we can make this rounded borders on the notes an option.

And the lollipops circles: I don't understand where the filled color comes from. It is strange when using color by pitch which is the one I like to use more often. I would prefer it to be the same color as the circle edge.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:25 AM   #7
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I agree with ED. I have to say that the different square/rounded shapes for selected/unselected is one of the worst ideas I've ever seen. It's not only a mess visually when using a lot CC points (which in my case is ALL the time) but it looks completely amateur. This one really needs a re-think.

Keep them the same shape. Filled = selected, not filled = unselected and highlight selected area as you are doing.

The highlight itself is already more than clear. Don't obfuscate it by doing something unnecessary. Highlighting the area, filling the point AND changing it to a square? Really??
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:29 AM   #8
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Also, a big hard NO on rounded note borders. What in the world??
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:33 AM   #9
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By the way, I can totally see validity in choosing the shape of the nodes with an option. But they should be consistent between selected and unselected. I can see how using squares could be more visible than circles in some cases (Cubase uses squares).

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Also, a big hard NO on rounded note borders. What in the world??
FL Studio makes them look so slick and awesome
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:37 AM   #10
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By the way, I can totally see validity in choosing the shape of the nodes with an option. But they should be consistent between selected and unselected. I can see how using squares could be more visible than circles in some cases (Cubase uses squares).
But what is the advantage? The visual difference isn't giving me any good information. It is only making it more difficult to tell if something is on the grid or not. About the worst thing you can do if you have a ton of midi data.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:41 AM   #11
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Yep, this ^^^^^^
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:51 AM   #12
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I kind of like the new rounded shape of the notes as it somehow feels more modern, except for one major problem. The note ends appear to be off the grid by a few pixels even though they are quantized to the grid. If we're going to be forced to view notes this way we absolutely have to have this visual bug fixed as this will potentially slow down our workflows significantly.

Please see my screenshot for reference. The rounded shape looks off the grid while the selected rectangle shape is clearly on the grid.




I'm not so keen on the whole switch to square shape on selection for CC or Notes. If I want round shapes then I always want round shapes. If I want square shapes, I always want square shapes. I'd rather them always be consistent. Especially if they are giving me incorrect visual feedback like the note end problem.

Any new visual option in the MIDI editor should be an actual option not a new required way of working. Just as with the velocity note length visual feature, some users will not want to change to this new way of viewing their midi data.

I two am experiencing a strange color fill on selected velocity heads. It's my opinion that they should be filled with whatever color the velocity stem is.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:51 AM   #13
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I really like rounded notes, it really looks cool and comfortable for the eyes!
But there are two things that do not really like:
1. The radius of roundness could be less, otherwise, now the short notes look like ovals.
2. I do not see the point in changing the shape during selection. At least, if it is not possible to change and there will be a hard switch between rounded / angular. It looks rough.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
But what is the advantage?
But what is the disadvantage? It's a good way to distinguish selected values from unselected ones.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:58 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cool View Post
1. The radius of roundness could be less, otherwise, now the short notes look like ovals.
The way they look in FL studio is the best imo.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:59 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
But what is the disadvantage? It's a good way to distinguish selected values from unselected ones.
The disadvantage is I can't clearly see if notes start/end on the grid. That's a pretty big disadvantage.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:01 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
The disadvantage is I can't clearly see if notes start/end on the grid. That's a pretty big disadvantage.
I was just about to post that. As I mentioned earlier. MIDI notes should clearly visually mirror their position at all times. This is crucial for MIDI work.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:02 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
The disadvantage is I can't clearly see if notes start/end on the grid. That's a pretty big disadvantage.
Read again what you quoted.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:03 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srdmusic View Post
I kind of like the new rounded shape of the notes as it somehow feels more modern, except for one major problem. The note ends appear to be off the grid by a few pixels even though they are quantized to the grid.
This is my entire point. They are going to obfuscate BOTH note starts and note ends. So it can look more "modern"?? Put a whole bunch of staccato notes all over the place and then tell me if that "modern" look is helping you see where things land/end any better.

Look if we are going to do a clone of the FL Studio midi editor, then use FL Studio. I know everyone likes what they like from different DAWS, myself as well. But we've literally spent the last few weeks now trying to recreate the FL Studio midi editor.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:03 AM   #20
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To be clear about new view options vs new Reaper functions, I believe any new view option in the MIDI editor, needs to actually be an option for the user.

This does not include new functions like CC envelopes. Users should be require to work with this new envelopes as it would be unfair to the Dev team to to support both the bars and envelope functions.

View options do not affect the way Reaper interprets MIDI. They are visual options that affect the way the user interpretes the midi data and therefore should remain options not requirements.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:03 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
I was just about to post that. As I mentioned earlier. MIDI notes should clearly visually mirror their position at all times. This is crucial for MIDI work.
I didn't say anything about notes! Notes can be rounded optionally, but for the full time, not only when selected.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:04 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Look if we are going to do a clone of the FL Studio midi editor, then use FL Studio. I know everyone likes what they like from different DAWS, myself as well. But we've literally spent the last few weeks now trying to recreate the FL Studio midi editor.
See the image above. Here is another image from FLS, but here notes look pretty squarish.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:07 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
This is my entire point. They are going to obfuscate BOTH note starts and note ends. So it can look more "modern"?? Put a whole bunch of staccato notes all over the place and then tell me if that "modern" look is helping you see where things land/end any better.

Look if we are going to do a clone of the FL Studio midi editor, then use FL Studio. I know everyone likes what they like from different DAWS, myself as well. But we've literally spent the last few weeks now trying to recreate the FL Studio midi editor.
Yeah, I kind of feel like Fruity Loops is one of the last DAWS we should try and emulate. I do see how some users might like this new option. Maybe it gives them one more visual feedback for which midi bits are selected. I myself find it distracting, and the note end bug is really not working for me. At any rate this new visual feature should be an option not a requirement.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:08 AM   #24
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See the image above. Here is another image from FLS, but here notes look pretty squarish.
Yeah, a more squared off curve on the edge might be better.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:09 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
The way they look in FL studio is the best imo.
The issue is: the notes look good at that zoom level.
But imagine a staccato pattern, with short notes.
If you zoom out vertically (I do that often, to see all the notes in an item), then the beautiful looking rounded notes will become round dots.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:11 AM   #26
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I found an interesting feature. Maybe this is a bug? When you increase the zoom, the roundness becomes less pronounced. And vice versa.

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Old 05-17-2019, 08:13 AM   #27
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IIRC FL Studio is adjusting the roundness of notes depending on zoom level. Also not sure 100% but they have several fixed zoom levels, rather than completely adjustable like in Reaper, right?
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:14 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
Read again what you quoted.
I quoted this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
But what is the disadvantage? It's a good way to distinguish selected values from unselected ones.
And I pointed out that the disadvantage is not being able to clearly see notes represented on the grid. I would also say that it is more confusing than helpful in being able to distinguish selected notes from unselected. If a completely different selection color isn't enough for people, I'm not sure what would be.

I just took a look at the latest FL Studio midi editor. The note corners are VERY slightly rounded. This is not that.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:15 AM   #29
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Just going based on the screen shots, having a tops-&-tails straight edge for the MIDI notes is a must. If there "has" to be a rounded corner, then it should be very very small... just to smooth out the corner... NOT make the tops-&-tails look like bullets.

As it is now, I'm getting a headache just thinking about how much pixel-peeping I'll have to do whenever I open the MIDI editor... and I live in the MIDI editor.

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Old 05-17-2019, 08:19 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
If you zoom out vertically (I do that often, to see all the notes in an item), then the beautiful looking rounded notes will become round dots.
I don't have FLS for a long time already, but I can say the same about tiny notes in Reaper. They are becoming square dots.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:20 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
IIRC FL Studio is adjusting the roundness of notes depending on zoom level. Also not sure 100% but they have several fixed zoom levels, rather than completely adjustable like in Reaper, right?
I'm not sure about fixed zoom levels, but in FLS you can't go deeper than 1/32 or 1/64.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:21 AM   #32
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I'm not sure about fixed zoom levels, but in FLS you can't go deeper than 1/32 or 1/64.
Yeah I knew there was something like that.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:22 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
I quoted this:
No, you quoted this
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
By the way, I can totally see validity in choosing the shape of the nodes with an option. But they should be consistent between selected and unselected. I can see how using squares could be more visible than circles in some cases (Cubase uses squares).
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:23 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yeah I knew there was something like that.
But they probably have fixed zoom levels, too.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:34 AM   #35
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I quoted both of you. Not sure what your point is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
By the way, I can totally see validity in choosing the shape of the nodes with an option. But they should be consistent between selected and unselected. I can see how using squares could be more visible than circles in some cases (Cubase uses squares).
My response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
But what is the advantage? The visual difference isn't giving me any good information. It is only making it more difficult to tell if something is on the grid or not. About the worst thing you can do if you have a ton of midi data.
Your response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
But what is the disadvantage? It's a good way to distinguish selected values from unselected ones.
My response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
The disadvantage is I can't clearly see if notes start/end on the grid. That's a pretty big disadvantage.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:37 AM   #36
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Default I vote no on the rounded notes

I find the rounded notes to be very confusing. I don't want to have to select a note or zoom in to be sure where it starts and ends. This rounded note will add that step to my process.

The notes should fit the grid for quick visual feedback. It's hard to see if notes are actually locked to the grid when they are round. If we worked in a world of rounded grids this may make sense. But time waits for no man. And neither should the visual feedback.

I'm like the new CC data lanes though. I really like being able to alter the velocity of a note anywhere in the duration of said note.

3d themes hurt my eyes and so do these rounded notes.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:40 AM   #37
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I agree with ED on the square vs. rounded shapes. Not sure why, but there's an aesthetic there that seems odd. Since I do a lot of work in the MIDI CC fields with Expression and Mod I have a special interest in this. Anything that makes working with the CC fields in Reaper easier, as it's still a little tough to work with. I say little, because you guys have done an amazing job, but there's always room for improvement.

I would still push for more envelope like editing capability in the CC fields, defining lines between points and interpolating the CC change.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:46 AM   #38
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One other thing I'm noticing (since we are all sharing )...

I think the CC selected state being a box will cause more graphic collisions and be less clear than just highlighted circles. Not sure what the point is behind the squares.

I shudder to think what my Mod-Wheel fader data will look like with a ton of data points being turned into squares. Is that really necessary?




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Old 05-17-2019, 08:50 AM   #39
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But Cubase also uses square nodes, no? They're just smaller. EDIT: or not, seem about the same.

http://www.cassandraproduzioni.it/Screenshot-cubase.jpg (big image, Retina)


I'm more fond of circles personally, but I wouldn't mind squares either. Just one or the other, as an option, but NOT changing upon selection.
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:01 AM   #40
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Quote:
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But Cubase also uses square nodes, no? They're just smaller. EDIT: or not, seem about the same.
I would not classify that as one of the better Steinberg decisions...

Again, we already have two very explicit things informing us of selection state. A selection highlight, which is very obvious and hard to miss. And we have a node that is filled in on selection which is also obvious - and is a good indicator when you are selecting only a few notes instead of an area. When you start to add more and more indicators, those indicators actually become less useful, not more, especially if they are shape based vs color based. Because your eye now has to process more information, especially with large data selections, vs something that was already clear visually. That is only going to confuse. There are already two visually clear indicators that work for both longer and shorter selections.

It's like when people layer more and more samples on top of each other and think it's going to sound louder. Or when you are recording and double and then triple, etc. on top of what you already have. At some point it just becomes noise and is actually much worse and less clear musically than the original arrangement you had.
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