The Piano Roll is a bit off looking

labyrinth · 08-12-2008, 06:06 AM

I know this is a bit nitpicky, but this is the forum for it I guess.

Here's what a piano keyboard looks like...

Now look at the spacing on the REAPER piano roll (specifically between B, C & E, F)...

schwa · 08-12-2008, 06:35 AM

Good eye Labyrinth ... but I think the oddness in the keyboard is necessary if you want the keys to line up properly with the midi editor note rows. There is one row per semitone and the rows are all the same height, but on a real keyboard there is not a consistent width per semitone (on a real keyboard the semitone from B to C takes up the same width as the whole tone from C to D, etc).

Alex Stone · 08-12-2008, 06:46 AM

Schwa, good point, but i wonder if having a 'truer' representation of a keyboard, with the resulting variances in the grid might actually aid quick visual recognition, i.e. where 'C' is, more than a totally symetrical grid layout.

Just a thought.

Alex.

DarkStar · 08-12-2008, 08:16 AM

My 2p:

I think that different heights in the piano roll would look very odd.

It might be Ok just to change the heights of some of the keys:

[img]http://img185.**************/img185/217/dspianokeysgv8.png[/img]

- the lines circled red were moved up a little (approx 2/3 up the black key)
- the lines circled blue were moved down a little (approx 2/3 down the black key)
- I had to nudge the F# and A# keys a little too

labyrinth · 08-12-2008, 08:43 AM

I really do not like using other DAWs as example, but here's how they accomplished this in Logic.

gofer · 08-12-2008, 10:29 AM

Indeed it's just a matter of having the black keys a tad wider and then moving some of the divider lines a bit off center of the black keys, so that they can have equal spacing:

shouldn't be too hard work, but looks much better.

labyrinth · 08-12-2008, 11:17 AM

Seems simple, now...what's that in code? 10001100 Just kidding.

Looks much better if it can be fixed.

Tallisman · 08-12-2008, 01:23 PM

ohhh logic is pretty!

carbon · 08-12-2008, 11:48 PM

Maybe make the keyboard themeable so that everyone can make their own - from shiny piano keys to inverted clav keys.

carbon · 08-12-2008, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tallisman

ohhh logic is pretty!

The small smooth font on the piano keys (C1, C2 etc) gives a nice polished look for an example.

Comparing Reaper, the font is large and pixelated.
It's all in the details...

hourglass · 08-13-2008, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carbon

The small smooth font on the piano keys (C1, C2 etc) gives a nice polished look for an example.

Comparing Reaper, the font is large and pixelated.
It's all in the details...

this is generally why Apple stuff looks "nicer" than Windows stuff (esp on XP). the fonts are just smoother.

i like it, fwiw... and i agree with Talli, Logic is *pretty*!

gofer · 08-13-2008, 01:56 AM

What I find really helpful in Logics midi editor (not to speak of color-coded velocities):

In the actual notes pane there are horizontal divider lines only between the notes B and C respectively E and F.
That helps a lot in determining what notes line you're on because it makes for an in-between step of subdivision of the keyboard.

It's details indeed, but they are well thought out and help you find your way.

And yes, I'd really like to theme the piano keys...

bladerunner · 08-13-2008, 01:39 PM

+1 for making the pianoroll look erm... more like a piano. always struck me as something that could be made more pleasing to the eye as i spend so many hours looking at it

happymonkey · 08-13-2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by labyrinth

I really do not like using other DAWs as example, but here's how they accomplished this in Logic.

WOW..... that's..... absolutely..... gorgeous.....

I could stare at that for hours

++1 for an editor that looks that refined and polished
++1 for Logic's keyboard spacing
++1 for color coded velocities (DrumQuest has this and I love it)

And while were at it....
++1 for a skinable keyboard (even though if it looked like Logic to start with I'd never have a reason to change it)

hm

labyrinth · 09-06-2008, 08:49 PM

Bump...when you guys get a chance can we get this to look normal...-please.

Mr. Data · 09-15-2008, 02:07 PM

As you can see in the pic of the Logic-editor, the black keys throw shadows on the white ones. Why not have this and then make the lightsource adjustable in angle and height? (...just kidding!)

But I agree with you, labyrinth. I noticed this before and thought it looks kinka clumsy. The Logic-thing not only looks nicer than "ours", but they have done it in an elegant way.

BTW: In the never-crashing Cubase

you can not only set the colors for velocity, but also the color for every note (not at the same time, of course). This is handy when editing drums.

historic stork · 09-15-2008, 06:37 PM

adjustable light source? really?

( i just scrolled over and saw the j/k)

labyrinth · 09-16-2008, 04:56 AM

You guys know we're talking about the size of the e,f, b, and c keys? Although having another color to shade the keys for a more 3-D look would rock.

spikemullings · 09-16-2008, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Stone

Schwa, good point, but i wonder if having a 'truer' representation of a keyboard, with the resulting variances in the grid might actually aid quick visual recognition, i.e. where 'C' is, more than a totally symetrical grid layout.

Just a thought.

Alex.

Alex has a very useful idea here I think. Would not work "as is" in drum mode though.

Mr. Data · 09-16-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by labyrinth

I really do not like using other DAWs as example, but here's how they accomplished this in Logic.

What's the point? Why not take the best of other DAWs and put it into Reaper, so it's getting even better? In every other post of mine I mention the never-crashing Cubase

(must be some traumatic thing, 'cos I wasted so much time on that crap), but there are some things they did quite well.

As gofer pointed:

Quote:

Originally Posted by gofer

Indeed it's just a matter of having the black keys a tad wider and then moving some of the divider lines a bit off center of the black keys, so that they can have equal spacing:

shouldn't be too hard work, but looks much better.

It isn't necessary to have the divider lines of the keys exactly fit to the lines in the grid except the ones between e and f and the ones between b and c. In the current version of the MIDI-editor they aren't there anyway. The fault in the depiction is only, that the divider lines between the white keys are all drawn exectly on half the gauge of the black keys, but on a real keybourd this is only the case between g and a.

BTW: On the virtual keyboard we have the same oddity.

labyrinth · 09-16-2008, 07:55 AM

Personal preference not mentioning other DAWs. I suppose you're right though, be the best...make it a melting pot of the best of the best.

Winfield · 09-16-2008, 08:50 AM

Polishing up the pianoroll would certainly give the impression of a more 'PRO' midi editor

Anyways +1

-W

labyrinth · 09-18-2008, 06:05 AM

A possible and very simple way to add a 3-D appeal to the Piano Roll is to add a lighter line to the top of the black keys.

Here I used Gofer's edit of the current piano roll, but also added a 5 pixel white line to the top of the black keys.

carbon · 09-18-2008, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by labyrinth

A possible and very simple way to add a 3-D appeal to the Piano Roll is to add a lighter line to the top of the black keys.

I don't think it adds much appeal to it.
Better just make the keyboard a png, so that the appeal could be dosed at will.

Mr. Data · 09-19-2008, 06:04 AM

This could be a bit tricky to make it look good with every zoomfactor.

carbon · 09-19-2008, 09:20 AM

You're right, I didn't think about that....

labyrinth · 09-19-2008, 10:20 AM

It shouldn't be too difficult, since they (meaning the MIDI editor and the piano roll) move together- a 1:1 relationship.

Mr. Data · 09-19-2008, 10:59 AM

Yes, but the more you zoom, the wider the dividing lines between the keys with a simple PNG would get too. I doubt, that this would look good.

Another idea (and that's what you probably mean) is to have PNGs for each key of an octave which then is repeated for every octave.

But when we go that far, we could even have graphics for pushed keys as well, but then the graphics of the piano roll had to react to the users input.

labyrinth · 09-19-2008, 11:01 AM

This would work, but have separate pngs for each key will probably munch the cpu cycles.

Mr. Data · 09-19-2008, 12:04 PM

I wonder, how it is done in logic.

labyrinth · 10-15-2008, 09:47 AM

It seems Pro Tools version 8 (their latest crap software...hee-hee) has the Piano Roll setup the same way. It really seems to be smarter this way.

Mr. Data · 10-16-2008, 06:09 AM

Think of the money you have to pay for PT.

It's ridiculous, isn't it?

-Data

labyrinth · 10-16-2008, 06:14 AM

Well, we know it is possible as I pointed out what it looks like in Logic.

Mr. Data · 10-16-2008, 06:40 AM

The "Logic"-solution I like best so far too, but I still wonder how they handle zooming.

There is one other peculiar thing with the MIDI-editor and the timeline, which isn't directly in conjunction with the piano-roll, but it came to my mind just right now: I tried to darken the grid of the MIDI-editor like it is in the pic of Logic, but then I couldn't see the position line anymore (the one that moves while playing or recording). This seems to be down to the fact, that this line is built out of two dotted lines of inverted pixels of the background. So if you invert a somewhat grey pixel (especially if all colors are set to 128) the line can't be seen anymore, 'cos it has the same color.
You can set the colors of each and everything, but not the color of this line.

But this doesn't belong here - just recalled.

-Data