Recording a band in a small space

[trevlyns]

A very basic question, but I'd like to hear your views please.
I'm addressing small studio/bedroom studio owners. In a small space, how would you go about recording a full band?
My studio is 10 by 16 feet and after my gear and stuff, this leaves an area of roughly 8 X 10 ft spare - a bit cramped for say a 4 or 5 piece band.
I have this idea of meeting the band at their normal practice venue, throwing up a single mic in the middle of the room, and recording a rough scratch track. Thereafter guys would come to the studio where they could overdub their parts and I could work with them one-on-one to get their sound right, before the final mixing is done.
What are your experiences in this regard? Thanks!

[mykrobinson]

Curious about the style of music?


Depending on style, the small space can be used to your advantage. If it's a punk or metal-ish band, they have likely played in smaller places, oddly enough. So long as they don't object to the close quarters and you have enough room to place mics, just go with the flow and capture the feeling of the band.


I suppose what I mean is, depending on style, capturing them all literally playing together may fare better than trying to overdub in the way you mentioned. There's not really a right or wrong way, mind you, but the sound and feel can vary greatly.

[BenK-msx]

Had a v small space for a while so feel that.

Tho do try and get as much as-live takes as you can, over laying individual parts to scratch track has a high chance of sucking life out of everything in the end, even if it makes for a nice mix.

Should have room to mic drumkit and lay that down with d.i bass & or guitar (s) as the core, and that's a no bleed situation to start off.

If can stand a bit of bleed, have vocalist in the corner record along too into a 58 style mic, to help bass & drums along.

Def imo need 2 or more players playing within sight of each other for takes to generate any kind of vibe that naturally occurs when they play together/live. Once a good performance is captured can decorate to taste with xtra layers etc.

Took me a fair while to arrive at performance beats all, as we're inclined to think we can magic things together in the lab!

[cyrano]

Originally Posted by trevlyns

I have this idea of meeting the band at their normal practice venue, throwing up a single mic in the middle of the room, and recording a rough scratch track. Thereafter guys would come to the studio where they could overdub their parts and I could work with them one-on-one to get their sound right, before the final mixing is done.

That's probably the best option.

Have you heard the recordings on the one mic channel on Youtube?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGQ...y2ZqIXABrAD__g

[serr]

Originally Posted by trevlyns

A very basic question, but I'd like to hear your views please.
I'm addressing small studio/bedroom studio owners. In a small space, how would you go about recording a full band?
My studio is 10 by 16 feet and after my gear and stuff, this leaves an area of roughly 8 X 10 ft spare - a bit cramped for say a 4 or 5 piece band.
I have this idea of meeting the band at their normal practice venue, throwing up a single mic in the middle of the room, and recording a rough scratch track. Thereafter guys would come to the studio where they could overdub their parts and I could work with them one-on-one to get their sound right, before the final mixing is done.
What are your experiences in this regard? Thanks!

Overdubbing to a scratch track like that (especially drums) would be the single most painful way to record you could find. You'd have a mountain of work to do to make it sound how you naturally played and with proper spark and energy. And it still would likely get rejected for not being up to performance standard after all that.

I'd rehearse a trimmed down arrangement. Drums, bass, (important other instrument), scratch vocal. Focus on the drum recording (sonically) at this stage. DI on the bass. Electric guitar required? Try to put the amp in the next room behind a closed door. The cord can run under the door. Have the singer do just sparse scratch vocals (or even just kind of cues). Crank the vocal mic in their headphones to force the issue of not belting out the vocals and bleeding into the drum mics.

You can have drummer, bass, guitar, and the singer in the same room playing together. DI that guitar too for options. (Especially if the amp might be turned down and a compromise.) If it's a different 'other important instrument' than guitar, improvise along these lines as required to get it included in the initial tracking.

[Magicbuss]

[EDIT] Looks like Serr beat me to it

Lay down the drums, bass and guitar in a single session.
Bass will be DI.
If you can put the guitar amp in a different room or closet that would work. You could also use a hardware Amp sim and run a DI simultaneously for reamping purposes.

You could also try to have the singer do scratch vocals from an adjoining room if vocal cues are necessary.

You will need a multi headphone amp for this to work because it relies on musician playing to the headphone mix. The only thing LIVE in the room will be the drums. Spend alot of time getting the drums to sound good starting with the overheads.

Do all vocals and overdubs in later sessions..

[mschnell]

My studio is a cube of 4.5 * 4.5 * 4.5 m. Can't be worse .

My band is six friends doing a kind of Jazz.

We don't do overdubs, just live playing recording.

I use some 6 mics for drums, DI for Bass, DI for E-Guitar, stereo DI for Keyboards, a clip mix for Sax, and a hand-held mic for voice.

We have a common monitor, and a dedicated monitor for Voc and Guitar.

The recording gets the better the less loud we play !!!!

I am rather happy with the results.

-Michael

[serr]

That's probably what I'd do too in a jazz setting like that. We'll assume the drummer knows how to listen and how to play each piece of their kit at proper volume at all times. Get a live vocal monitor dialed in (spend some time to make it perfect) or whatever other quiet instruments need a little help. Flute? Nylon string guitar?

For rock or pop where some players might prefer to overdub their parts to perfection (vocals is an obvious choice for this scenario)... what I said above. I was assuming it was the later since it was even being considered to overdub in the first place.

[BenK-msx]

Originally Posted by serr

Overdubbing to a scratch track like that (especially drums) would be the single most painful way to record you could find. You'd have a mountain of work to do to make it sound how you naturally played and with proper spark and energy. And it still would likely get rejected for not being up to performance standard after all that.

I'd rehearse a trimmed down arrangement. Drums, bass, (important other instrument), scratch vocal. Focus on the drum recording (sonically) at this stage. DI on the bass. Electric guitar required? Try to put the amp in the next room behind a closed door. The cord can run under the door. Have the singer do just sparse scratch vocals (or even just kind of cues). Crank the vocal mic in their headphones to force the issue of not belting out the vocals and bleeding into the drum mics.

You can have drummer, bass, guitar, and the singer in the same room playing together. DI that guitar too for options. (Especially if the amp might be turned down and a compromise.) If it's a different 'other important instrument' than guitar, improvise along these lines as required to get it included in the initial tracking.

Thanks for agreeing with everything I said like I didn't say it

[pipelineaudio]

I've had to do a lot in tiny spaces. Even with the best of bands, I can't think of a time when some sort of magical "energy' or whatever made the bleeding, muddy sound of the all instruments live take sound better, or even "good"

I like the original idea in the OP, though I like a tempo mapped, guitar pro (or similar) driven multitrack recording better

[Fritz]

He would record rhythm guitar to a click. Turn the click off Then do drums, wipe the guitar track and build from there.

Another idea would be to record scratch rhythm guitar and vocals first, then overdub drums and direct bass. You could always reamp the bass.

[Bazzbass]

have the drums facing a wall. Close mic the kick and snare and have one overhead for the cymbals and toms.
DI the bass and have the singer sing live as a guide track.
Guitars can be DI'd too using a Joyo American Sound or Sansamp pedal.Or mic their amp from another room if possible.
Overdub only the lead vocals and backups, a great lead solo and any flubs.
The key is to capture a good drum take, everything else can be overdubbed

Mic bleed is not necessarily a bad thing, it gives you the live feel and sounds less clinical.

[Judders]

I like to do it all live with no headphones.

Place the drums so that the drummer's back is to the PA speakers. Use over-the-shoulder SDC overheads on a rail, at an angle where the bass drum and snare are in a line between the mic's). Add spot mic's to taste.

Place gobos in front of the kit for the guitar amps. Have the amps facing away from the drum kit. Mic them right against the cloth.

Stick the bass amp further down the room, facing perpendicular to the drum kit. Have the bass amp as quiet as you can, without ruining the vibe for the band. Take a DI from the amp, mic it up if you want.

Put the singer at the opposite end of the room to the drums, facing them. Have the vocals as quiet as you can through the PA without killing the vibe. Route them through your interface to record and back out to feed the PA. Use a dynamic cardioid.

Have any backing vocals going through the PA, but overdub them too. You can decide to overdub more takes of lead vocals, or whatever else. Bleed should be such that it just adds an aura around overdubbed parts without clashing.

This gives everyone good eye contact as well as minimising bleed. Recording songs without vocals really flattens the dynamics, IMHO, and headphones are a drag as well. I quite like doing overdubs using the PA speakers.

Here's a picture:

[vdubreeze]

How many inputs and mic pres are in your setup, and how many mics do you have?

Unless you're using a desktop computer it's pretty simple to tote enough to record more than just a one mic drum track. If at all possible, try to consider recording them playing full out in their rehearsal space. Adjust amp locations for less bleed, go direct with bass with output of DI going to amp mainly as monitor for bassist. To do without headphones If there's a decent PA in the room the mic'd amp moved away can be fed back not it for them to hear. Singer sings reference vocal into PA which is not aimed at drum mics, and won't get on DI bass or guitar amp. If you happen to have a bunch of headphones and a headphone box that fine too, but often not as good a ratio of productive return on the effort as working out a headphone-less way of laying down basics that works.

Lots of options if you are using a laptop and can bring it, interface and bag of mics and cables to their space. Then return to your place for overdubs. Or you can even do overdubs still at their place.

Maybe doing so much at their place sounds better to me because that's what I often do and I enjoy it. If the band is well rehearsed and some time is taken to plan it out it's less hoops to jump through and the you can make a great recording with a lot less physical inconveniencing (and audio bleed) than it would seem.

[Bazzbass]

Originally Posted by Judders

I like to do it all live with no headphones.

that's crazy.

mic a bass amp in the same room? Crazy, just DI it. you are creating difficulty.

PA for vocals? stupid idea. HEADPHONES for ALL.

You can do everything you suggest without the PA and with headphones.

So you want mic bleed on every instrument? why?


Still, sometimes you need ridiculous options to realise the good ones are good ones lol

[karbomusic]

I like to do it all live with no headphones.

Amen.

Originally Posted by Bazzbass

that's crazy.


So you want mic bleed on every instrument? why?

There are a multitude of great recordings done very much like what Judders posted in that picture. If the bleed is sufficiently below some threshold compared to the tracked signal (which is what such a setup does), it's as likely to help glue the mix as it is to hurt it. Genre matters some in that regard but the small space is the bigger problem here.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Bazzbass

So you want mic bleed on every instrument? why?

If the musicians are not professionals, and only once in a while do recordings of their playing, the headphones are likely to kill the communication between them, as they are accustomed to unhampered optical and acoustical interaction.
Moreover the advantage of headphones will not be that huge, as the drums can't be silenced, anyway, unless you use an e-kit.

Of course, to limit the bleed, you need to use super cardioid mics that tend to sound worse in many situations.

The bleed is not too bad when doing normal (level-) mixing and vertical-cut comping, But when trying to do corrections (e.g. with Melodyne) you are likely to get nasty side-effects.

-Michael

[Judders]

Originally Posted by Bazzbass

that's crazy.

mic a bass amp in the same room? Crazy, just DI it. you are creating difficulty.

PA for vocals? stupid idea. HEADPHONES for ALL.

You can do everything you suggest without the PA and with headphones.

So you want mic bleed on every instrument? why?


Still, sometimes you need ridiculous options to realise the good ones are good ones lol

Don't knock it till you've tried it.

An exciting performance is more important to me than a sterile recording. I've yet to witness a performer who tended toward more energy and excitement when wearing headphones. Sometimes singers like them for overdubs because they act as props to make the feel like they are "making a record", which is fine. However people are most comfortable.

There's nothing worse than that tinny, ratty headphone bleed though. I'd rather deal with full-spectrum bleed any day.

As Karbo said, you'd be surprised how little bleed is a problem in a setup like the one I described. When it comes to mixing, you have to realise that everything affects everything else (which is the case regardless of bleed). If you are used to making everything sound good in solo and hoping they fit together, then this will not work for you.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by mschnell

If the musicians are not professionals, and only once in a while do recordings of their playing, the headphones are likely to kill the communication between them, as they are accustomed to unhampered optical and acoustical interaction.
Moreover the advantage of headphones will not be that huge, as the drums can't be silenced, anyway, unless you use an e-kit.

Of course, to limit the bleed, you need to use super cardioid mics that tend to sound worse in many situations.

The bleed is not too bad when doing normal (level-) mixing and vertical-cut comping, But when trying to do corrections (e.g. with Melodyne) you are likely to get nasty side-effects.

-Michael

Not professionals? I dunno... I can think of a few examples of seasoned artists who have recorded this way.

I wouldn't recommend supercardioid mic's though - they have a pickup lobe at the rear of the mic, so the rear rejection of cardioid patterns is better for this application.

Totally agree that a live setup is not going to give much room for editing and pitch correction. The performance you capture is the one everyone has to live with. If they can't get through a song without a mistake, then they are not ready to record that song.

[serr]

Originally Posted by Bazzbass

that's crazy.

mic a bass amp in the same room? Crazy, just DI it. you are creating difficulty.

PA for vocals? stupid idea. HEADPHONES for ALL.

You can do everything you suggest without the PA and with headphones.

So you want mic bleed on every instrument? why?


Still, sometimes you need ridiculous options to realise the good ones are good ones lol

You've heard of live albums?

Bleed is only a problem if you plan on cutting and pasting bits around to alter the arrangement. (eg. Drum part used to be in a verse but now moved to a chorus.)

I mean actually recorded on stage 'live albums'. Before some wise guy says "Oh a live album? Right, so you rerecord all the parts in the studio..."

[Judders]

Originally Posted by serr

You've heard of live albums?

Bleed is only a problem if you plan on cutting and pasting bits around to alter the arrangement. (eg. Drum part used to be in a verse but now moved to a chorus.)

I mean actually recorded on stage 'live albums'. Before some wise guy says "Oh a live album? Right, so you rerecord all the parts in the studio..."

I grew up on BBC radio live sessions. Bands recorded live in a studio, without an audience.

At no point did I listen to one of these and think "man, this would be so much better if everyone had laid down their part to a click track on their own".

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Judders

Not professionals? I dunno... I can think of a few examples of seasoned artists who have recorded this way.

I'd hazard that it is the opposite, aka professional players will sound better in such conditions - well they'll sound better in all conditions because they are ground zero aka the source of the sound generation.

Originally Posted by serr

You've heard of live albums?

Bleed is only a problem if you plan on cutting and pasting bits around to alter the arrangement.

Just an aside that many famous albums were recorded similarly to what Judders discussed, just in larger spaces, and many still are today. Again, genre makes a difference but at the same time, some of this "can't have bleed" mentality is nothing other than internet home studio lore.

I do agree on the need to remove bleed for editing which gets us right back to the point of separating the amateurs from the professionals - if the performers are up to snuff, there is far less need for constantly slicing and dicing - it becomes more of an exercise of not screwing up what is there, than it is trying to mix/edit the hell out of it. Many simply don't know this because they've never actually spent quality time with really good musicians.

[Magicbuss]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Amen.



There are a multitude of great recordings done very much like what Judders posted in that picture. If the bleed is sufficiently below some threshold compared to the tracked signal (which is what such a setup does), it's as likely to help glue the mix as it is to hurt it. Genre matters some in that regard but the small space is the bigger problem here.

Yeah... But:

The band was probably very well rehearsed and the space was probably ALOT bigger than 10x16. This is a bad idea in a small room IMO

If you do it the way Judders suggests, the band better be pretty good. Its gotta be right all the way through on every instrument. Any flubs and you have to do a new take. Well how hard can that be? Ummm... brutal with some of the bands I've recorded.

Also Having the bass amp to one side seems questionable unless you're recording the overheads in mono (probably not a bad idea in a small room scenario). The last thing I want is loud bass on one side of my OH's

[Judders]

Originally Posted by Magicbuss

Also Having the bass amp to one side seems questionable unless you're recording the overheads in mono (probably not a bad idea in a small room scenario). The last thing I want is loud bass on one side of my OH's

Bass bleed is pretty much mono in the scheme I drew above. The speaker isn't pointing to any microphone.

But yeah, one flub will ruin this.

[Magicbuss]

Originally Posted by Judders

Bass bleed is pretty much mono in the scheme I drew above. The speaker isn't pointing to any microphone.

But yeah, one flub will ruin this.

Interesting... I would think spaced pair OH's would skew the bass toward the direction of the bass amp. Then again spaced pair is probably not ideal for this setup. I'd probably go mono or X/Y.

For the OP there is actually a great E-book that goes in-depth into a similar live recording concepts that judders is recommending. Its by Moses Schneider.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews...-practice-room

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Schneider

[Judders]

Originally Posted by Magicbuss

Interesting... I would think spaced pair OH's would skew the bass toward the direction of the bass amp. Then again spaced pair is probably not ideal for this setup. I'd probably go mono or X/Y.

For the OP there is actually a great E-book that goes in-depth into a similar live recording concepts that judders is recommending. Its by Moses Schneider.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews...-practice-room

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Schneider

I usually go for ORTF over the shoulder of the drummer, not spaced pairs. I need the overheads to have as much rejection of the PA as possible, so those mic's wanna be showing their ass to the PA speakers.

Bass bleed is a lot less directional anyway, because of the wavelengths we're talking about.

Cheers for the book recommendation, I just bought it. I remember that sausage mic guy from a SoS video.

[serr]

Originally Posted by Magicbuss

... Its gotta be right all the way through on every instrument. Any flubs and you have to do a new take. ...

If the arrangement has absolutely no repetition whatsoever, eg. improvised jazz that's stream of consciousness and never lands on a pattern. That might make editing a little clam or two difficult. Bet I'd still find a quick little slip edit to fix that right up though.

When the band is on point, any little clam takes seconds to edit away. (Please don't confuse this with what people call "Protools performance" where you lay everything down to a click/grid and cut/paste a whole performance together that still sounds stiff and like it's holding on for dear life.)

I'd go so far to say that the computer and non-linear editing ability have flipped the script on this point. With tape, you had no choice but to do a new take. And you'd keep the safe and more stiff take with no clams over the killer passionate take with that little flub. Musicians would play it safe to avoid re-work and avoid risks.

Now you do the opposite! Go for that hot take. You can fix any little flubs and get to keep the gold.

I'm aware of the skills some people had with a razor blade too. It DID take skill and people STILL played it safe though.


Pro tip for a band recording live:
Screw up something? Run through that section of the arrangement again (extend it a bar, repeat a chorus again, etc). It will sound natural to the audience. You can just slice the whole extra bit with the mistake out in post and not have to actually get down and dirty with a spot fix.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Magicbuss

Yeah... But:

The band was probably very well rehearsed and the space was probably ALOT bigger than 10x16. This is a bad idea in a small room IMO

Yea... no doubt ...

Originally Posted by karbomusic

but the small space is the bigger problem here.

Originally Posted by Magicbuss

Well how hard can that be? Ummm... brutal with some of the bands I've recorded.

Yea, as I also noted previously, the lesser the player the bigger the problem and that's the case in all recording scenarios. That's the primary reason I didn't open a formal studio, because I can't deal with recording people who can't play. But I also know a lot of people who can play and can get a reasonable take without unreasonable flubs and in many cases zero flubs.

Which begs the question, how much of all this everyone is doing is really just compensating for substandard playing. That's not a disparaging remark, its more about understanding where the root of the problem lives.

[serr]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Yea... no doubt ...





Yea, as I also noted previously, the lesser the player the bigger the problem and that's the case in all recording scenarios. That's the primary reason I didn't open a formal studio, because I can't deal with recording people who can't play. But I also know a lot of people who can play and can get a reasonable take without unreasonable flubs and in many cases zero flubs.

Heh. It wouldn't be a problem except that those characters want the finished product to sound like people who know how to play.

[cyrano]

We haven't heard back from the OP, yet...

Not knowing the genre, the possibilities makes this just a guessing game.

[Judders]

It might be worth mentioning that, while the drums and bass are hard to edit, I have successfully copy/pasted/time stretched guitars and vocals with this kind of setup. The bleed from them is so low level that it isn't much of a hinderance.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Judders

It might be worth mentioning that, while the drums and bass are hard to edit, I have successfully copy/pasted/time stretched guitars and vocals with this kind of setup. The bleed from them is so low level that it isn't much of a hinderance.

I wonder how many immediately solo and listen to bleed vs just mixing - in general, not necessarily related to anyone here. I ask because someone who had mixed live drums pinged me awhile back with some tracks and what to do about all the terrible bleed. I listened, did a quick reference mix and told them that that amount of bleed was perfectly normal. They then mixed the drums as-is and everything sounded fine.

[ivansc]

I have recorded one o fmy bands in my 3m x 4.5 m studio with no problems, Good players and I cheated a little by using my e-drums instead of drummers kit.
Not sure what to say to the OP, but he doesnt seem to be in a hurry for an answer.
I agree 100% that it is so often a case of getting good players used to working with each other. Takes a lot of the risk out.

[vdubreeze]

Originally Posted by Bazzbass

that's crazy.

mic a bass amp in the same room? Crazy, just DI it. you are creating difficulty.

PA for vocals? stupid idea. HEADPHONES for ALL.

Two reasons: One, if you're capturing a band playing, putting headphones on everyone totally changes what it is that they're doing and how they're relating to what is happening. Sometimes it tanks the whole thing. And more to the point, two, if someone doesn't own enough headphones (and wattage) that can handle hearing yourself well while in a small room with a drummer, it's pointless to go through the motion of it. We can even assume everyone has two sets of headphones and can rustle up two more, but if they're not literally tracking headphones, and the level isn't high enough before it causes ear damage to hear anything useful, it can be a waste of time.

I record live bands without headphones in their spaces all the time. Sometimes I'll bring them but 75% of the time I wouldn't dream of handing out headphones. As pointed out, live albums don't involve headphones. Until they come back in and recut everything : )

[pipelineaudio]

No, bleed is a problem whenever bleed is a problem...even under the best of situations, for instance cymbals in the tom mics

[karbomusic]

It probably became a problem when someone needed to eq or gate the shit out of the toms. That's perfectly reasonable if needed (again genre/need) but there are as many times that's not a problem at all because every recording doesn't have the same needs - for example every recording doesn't even need mics on the toms for that matter.

[Magicbuss]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

No, bleed is a problem whenever bleed is a problem...even under the best of situations, for instance cymbals in the tom mics

Gatey Watey to the rescue (https://www.bozdigitallabs.com/product/gatey-watey/) or just automate a LPF.

Of course the best way is a good drummer who doesnt bash his cymbals. I've been told that they do exist. I'm not so sure...

[endorka]

Judders, that setup is well smart, thanks for posting it. I like to place the bass central facing the drums.

To ye of little faith in the recording live without headphones, it really can be very effective. The bleed helps the mix gel meaning no or less fake ambience required, and gives a real sense of depth. Mixing seems to come together far more quickly than with overdubbed recordings. As mentioned by others, having good musicians helps a lot. Taking time to ensure you have good mic bleed helps too.

I don't think smaller rooms are necessary a problem. Often recordings done in larger studios cluster the musicians in a small area. It gets better performances, and helps minimise phase issues, therefore getting good bleed. Some reasonably good acoustic treatment in a small room is probably advised though.

Cheers,
Jennifer

[Liquid Fusion]

I recorded a rock blues band with live vibe (in stages)-

1) Band's rehearsal room -

Reel to reel Analog Teac 3340s 1/4" 15ips - Recorded - Drums inside the studio rehearsal room miked
Reel to reel Analog Teac 3340s 1/4" 15ips - Recorded - Bass DI
Live Headphone mix - Guitar amp outside down the hall - gave drummer / bass player "Live" push
Live Headphone mix - Singer outside the rehearsal room - gave drummer / bass player "Live" push

2) My home pro studio with vocal booth

Bounced live drums / bass to DAW
Brought in singer to my studio - recorded rough vocals in vocal booth
Brought in guitarist to my studio - recorded amp in vocal booth
Brought in Keys to my studio - recorded keys in vocal booth
Brought in singer to my studio - recorded A+ vocals in vocal booth

Made three stereo mixes from daw -

Compressor - Stereo mix Mix 01 = drums
Compressor - Stereo mix Mix 02 = instruments
Compressor - Stereo mix Mix 03 = vocals

Mixed all thee above simultaneously to Two Track 1/4" 15ips reel to reel mix!!

[Bazzbass]

experienced musicians certainly can record themselves live with headphones.

If the band can't play with headphones then they need to improve.