We use fake instruments for professionals

[sickamorz]

I don't get why professional performers in the US use fake instruments they don't sound real and I doubt they ever sound like the real instrument. Take a grand piano vs the fake one as an example.

[mschnell]

Maybe because it's more versatile and more handy.

As an extreme example see Cameron Carpenter, not wanting to take a complete church on tour

-Michael

[woogish]

I completely agree - even tho' I fully understand why pro musicians in Europe use fake instruments, I'll never understand why those in the US do.......

[JamesPeters]

I also agree. Every American is rich and has lots of room to store grand pianos in their mansions.

Also all Americans are extremely strong so they can carry a grand piano anywhere they want at any time without any help.

[hopi]

what exactly is a fake instrument?

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by hopi

what exactly is a fake instrument?

That is obvious:
A Fender is a fake Grand Piano, a Hammond is a fake Pipe Organ.

Both are a lot more handy on tour.

And the OP is correct, they will never sound exactly like the original.

....

Reaper is a fake Tape Machine and never will sound exactly like the original ?!?!?!?

-Michael

[martifingers]

Originally Posted by sickamorz

I don't get why professional performers in the US use fake instruments they don't sound real and I doubt they ever sound like the real instrument. Take a grand piano vs the fake one as an example.

Just a thought but have you ever tried a double blind test where you had to pick out a really good quality grand piano VSTi from the "real" thing? Maybe you could tell the difference but I think it might be very difficult from a recording especially in a mix.
And these professionals seem happy and I think I trust their ears...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slYbmxaBo-I

[mschnell]

Moreover:

Always using the same loudspeakers and listening location, a sample instrument (S) comes close to a certain individual device (A1) using certain set of Microphones (A2), while another individual device using (B1) using certain set of Microphones (B2) also comes close to (A).

It's not unlikely that S is closer to A than B is to A.

-Michael

[mschnell]

Regarding grand Piano, even I as a not really well trained hobby pianist, using a rather decent keyboard (Kawai VPC 1) and a rather decent sample library (NI Grandeur) and a rather decent set of loudspeakers, can feel the limitations of only 127 steps of Velocity,

But there is (a lot more expensive) equipment that provides high resolution velocity...

-Michael

[Softsynth]

Heh heh, telling bias in your choice there Sickamorz.
Real piano is hard to capture convincingly. Some recordings of real piano sound like fake instruments - limited dynamic range, microphone positioning choices, mic colourations........ I've heard Pianoteq sound more real than some less than perfect older classical recordings!

Even so I suggest you picked the instrument that you know is quite obviously the acoustic instrument most convincingly reproduced electronically today, so everything else must be pure crap to refined ears - and therefore the public!!!
Of course it is downhill from there (a MIDI keyboard most closely resembles a piano, not a violin or guitar so...), and if you can afford an orchestra in your recording studio it's all good..........

A Classical recital isn't going to go down too well with a Nord and an array of speakers.
However I suspect even most classical fans could be fooled by the odd solo recordings of pianoteq 6.1, or one of the better sample pianos if it was played on a radio station amongst other tracks - if they weren't warned in advance to listen for electronic tracks (expectation bias).

Listen to the Ravel. I doubt even BBC Radio 3 listeners would be calling in to protest that someone was trying to fool them with a kids Bontempi!:

https://www.pianoteq.com/modelb
I picked the Ravel for the nicely emulated life like room acoustics.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Regarding grand Piano, even I as a not really well trained hobby pianist, using a rather decent keyboard (Kawai VPC 1) and a rather decent sample library (NI Grandeur) and a rather decent set of loudspeakers, can feel the limitations of only 127 steps of Velocity,

But there is (a lot more expensive) equipment that provides high resolution velocity...

-Michael

It might not feel the same to play, but it's hard to tell the difference in the context of a pop song where piano has been compressed to within an inch of its life.

Recording real instruments is more expensive, and budgets aren't what they used to be.

[Softsynth]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Regarding grand Piano, even I as a not really well trained hobby pianist, using a rather decent keyboard (Kawai VPC 1) and a rather decent sample library (NI Grandeur) and a rather decent set of loudspeakers, can feel the limitations of only 127 steps of Velocity,

But there is (a lot more expensive) equipment that provides high resolution velocity...

-Michael

Grandeur has something like 18 layers of velocity as I recall, so on that sample instrument the rest is merely playing the same samples louder.

OTOH I do not believe that the mere 127 layers is a perceivable limitation to realism in a physical modelled synth version. At most it is the least important limitation (if a real limitation at all for humans).

I don't believe the human finger is a refined instrument capable of the discerning between 127 levels of velocity or a greater amount, especially when playing music!!!

The human ear certainly could not tell the sound pressure difference between say 110 and 111. Though you may be able to trigger the perception that the listener was hearing this with a dodgy velocity layer change on a sample instrument.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Softsynth

Grandeur has something like 18 layers of velocity as I recall, so on that sample instrument the rest is merely playing the same samples louder.

AFAIK, the Kontakt engine will not just play the samples louder but do a kind of spectrum - crossfade between the adjacent layers, so there will be a sound difference between any of the 127 velocity steps (even if those don't perfectly reproduce the original instrument perfectly).

-Michael

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Judders

but it's hard to tell the difference in the context of a pop song where piano has been compressed to within an inch of its life.

Even with more "realistic" recordings you are perfectly right. I don't ever miss the velocity resolution when playing any "music", just when experimenting with extreme awareness.

-Michael

[CrimsonFlak]

In the song Sucks, it says "Our music is sampled, Totally fake, It's done by machines, Cause they don't make mistakes".

So the answer is either because they suck, or they dont make mistakes, maybe both, maybe 42

[sostenuto]

1) The REAL instrument is only FELT by the player.

2) The REAL instruments is only HEARD by those NEARBY or in a unique acoustic settings.

3) Everything else is RECREATED at almost infinitely different levels of quality, mostly digital, and ... HEARD in infinitely different surroundings.

The organ in a famous cathedral sounds vastly different every time it is played. Empty, half-full, over-crowded, etc. Owning/playing a fine Grotrian Concert Grand for many years, has provided some perspective. It varied notably as seasonal humidity changed. Prior Mason Hamlin was a VERY different experience.

Seems like almost every scenario is FAKE except for fairly tiny number of REAL, and transient scenarios.

Today ... time and circumstances have resulted in playing Roland KR577 digital piano, thru a range of VSTi Libraries, IvoryII, NI Komplete11U, Addictive Keys, some others ... into a 'decent stereo amp, and speakers.
Exact same system sounds very different in another room.

It is all FAKE ... bu still FUN !

[Softsynth]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Even with more "realistic" recordings you are perfectly right. I don't ever miss the velocity resolution when playing any "music", just when experimenting with extreme awareness.

-Michael

I believe you are imagining that, or hearing something caused by velocity layer changes.

Originally Posted by mschnell

AFAIK, the Kontakt engine will not just play the samples louder but do a kind of spectrum - crossfade between the adjacent layers, so there will be a sound difference between any of the 127 velocity steps (even if those don't perfectly reproduce the original instrument perfectly).

-Michael

Maybe so but you are still relying on step changes based on a limited sample set.
Don't get me wrong though NI Grandeur still sounds good.

Originally Posted by sostenuto

.......
It is all FAKE ... bu still FUN !

Amen!

[woogish]

"what exactly is a fake instrument?"

most air guitars

[woogish]

"I also agree. Every American is rich and has lots of room to store grand pianos in their mansions.

Also all Americans are extremely strong so they can carry a grand piano anywhere they want at any time without any help."


Even the poor ones have 3-4 11 foot grands, and a pipe organ or two, in their $800,000.00
RVs

[deeb]

it's a simple compromise! portability, costs and versatility vs original sound and feel

[sostenuto]

Originally Posted by woogish

"I also agree. Every American is rich and has lots of room to store grand pianos in their mansions.

Also all Americans are extremely strong so they can carry a grand piano anywhere they want at any time without any help."


Even the poor ones have 3-4 11 foot grands, and a pipe organ or two, in their $800,000.00
RVs

Not to mention .... fairly pricey, capable technicians to perform routine tuning, regulation, misc maintenance.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by sostenuto

Not to mention .... fairly pricey, capable technicians to perform routine tuning, regulation, misc maintenance.

...and a pianist.

[serr]

Fake instruments aren't the problem. It's just the combination of the lazy paint by number music with some of those signature "fake instrument" sounds.

And that isn't even necessarily bad. It's just that there's almost always something better to listen to. Lazy pop music is certainly the US standard right now though.

[cassembler]

Originally Posted by woogish

"what exactly is a fake instrument?"

most air guitars

Which reminds me, I make and sell air guitar strings. Hit me up.

[woogish]

OMG!!!!
I broke 2 strings on my 12 string air guitar six years ago, and I've been unable to play it since..Thank God you posted!!!!

Make America Grand Again

[CrimsonFlak]

<--- 25+ years, never changed air guitar strings.

[hopi]

well you all have really cleared it up for me and moreover have convinced me that until now I've been totally stuck on sucky fade instruments... but now, thanks to you, I've seen the light at last! I'm selling everything and going out to buy the best cathedral I can afford so I can at last have the real pipe organ that is in it, along with the pure real reverb of the building.

Man... it feels so good to be really awake to the TRUTH at long last!!!!

[mikeroephonics]

BBIAB, selling off all my Spectrasonics VSTis...

[hopi]

Originally Posted by JamesPeters

Every American is given a grand piano when they're born. There are so many grand pianos in America, you can just walk into any restaurant and there's one sitting there waiting to be played. They're always maintained because everyone in America is an expert at grand piano maintenance.

You know what they say...

America: the land of grand pianos!

actually they have been on the decline lately but I'm gonna run for President and my cam-PITA slogan will be "Make America Grand Again"

[mschnell]

Ah, this is the essence:

If God would want us to play fake instruments, He would have them grow on trees.

-Michael

[Pants]

We collectively owe OP a beverage of choice. Many giggles.

[Geoff-h3o]

We plough the feilds and scatter
the good seed on the land
how great is god almighty
to give us all these grands -

and presumably it's called the Rio Grande because that's where all the spoilt ones end up? Of course I'm jealous really - here in Wales we're just tripping over bloody harps everywhere.

[DSmolken]

I love fake. I'm not all that fond of the limitations of reality and realism, and not just ones like portability, availability and cost.

[Bri1]

I love fake. I'm not all that fond of the limitations of reality and realism.

Yep - can a grand do legato/portamento/glides? pitchbending.. this type of fake is not fake-just other forms of instrumentations-modern instruments for modern practices.

[DSmolken]

To expand on that a bit, some parts work best with warts-and-all realism. Others are best slightly idealized - a little more in tune and in time than a real player would ever be. Others yet benefit from breaking the laws of physics in ways that are not obviously audible - for example layering transposed samples to make a string part warmer and thicker. Others yet break the laws of time and space blatantly - say, a reverse cymbal.

Me, I like having those options.

[ReaperMadness]

It doesn't matter what one uses for an instrument; if you make it work, it works.

I do, however, have concern regarding the ever-growing acceptance of fake creativity.

[suleiman]

I think the OP got served real well here....letz lay off a lil

[davetbass]

Isn't the only real instrument the unamplified voice? once you cut a log to make a drum, or pick a blade of grass to do that squawky thing, isn't that all fake? Acoustic piano are not divinely sensitive, they are actually pretty mechanical.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by ReaperMadness

I do, however, have concern regarding the ever-growing acceptance of fake creativity.

+ 1 : )

[Bri1]

Isn't the only real instrument the unamplified voice?

Acoustic piano are not divinely sensitive, they are actually pretty mechanical.

^Heh-well instrument as a term is rather vague until labelled >>accordingly><<
+yes-otherwise,traditionally most are 'mechanical' in some way-- it takes some kind of effort from a player (or even robot) to make the tones be produced.
Voice is still a challenge for machines/robots--but that's also improving..daily.
Voice synthesis is actually getting to a level of people not actually telling any differences,now,today.ask the aliens about 'reasynthesis' in meditations. lol.