MIDI Learn: support for 14 bit resolution using MSB/LSB CC# pairs / (N)RPNs

[Banned]

When using the Param > Learn feature, I'd like a new option to be added for MIDI CC#s, that supports sending values at 14 bit resolution using MSB/LSB CC# pairs (CC# 0-31 for MSB + CC# 32-63 for LSB), and another one for (N)RPNs. [EDIT(1):] And, following gofer's excellent suggestion in post #3 below: yet another option that enables us to use pitch bend data (which also uses 14 bit resolution), even though that's not a "CC mode", strictly speaking (the name should just be changed to something more general anyway, since we also have OSC now).

Currently the only option for absolute control uses the regular 7 bits resolution for single CC#s. Thus, it does not seem to be possible to use such high resolution MIDI control schemes for controlling parameters in REAPER directly (*), while the limited resolution of 7 bit CC#s does not suffice for many parameters. We really need options for more precise control.

(*) Currently I'm using the OSC control surface support to achieve this, which also addresses the separate issue of missing feedback for 'learned' MIDI control to parameter bindings (which does not work for 'learned' bindings using OSC either). While this works great to achieve high resolution control (with proper feedback), this does still not establish reliable bindings (i.e. when track/plugin slot numbers change, so do the corresponding OSC messages), and should not be necessary imho.

[EDIT(2):] FR thread here, please vote if you also want this feature.

[LX84]

Originally Posted by Banned

When using the Param > Learn feature, I'd like a new option to be added for MIDI CC#s, that supports sending values at 14 bit resolution using MSB/LSB CC# pairs (CC# 0-31 for MSB + CC# 32-63 for LSB), and another one for (N)RPNs.

That would be essential for so many control devices!!!
The resolution of 128 values is just far too little for reasonable parameter controlling.

Additionally the "Curve", "Stepping Size" and "Range" should be customizable - which is kind of implemented in this FR: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4127

Right now controlling of e.g. "ReaDelay Time" doesn't make any sense at all having 128 values only, cause steps would be 10.000/128 which is something like "0ms, 78.7ms, 157.5ms, 236.2ms,...." absolutely unusable for musical intentions :-(

[gofer]

Originally Posted by LX84

That would be essential for so many control devices!!!
The resolution of 128 values is just far too little for reasonable parameter controlling.

I figure it's a problem only with absolute faders on control surfaces and a solution only if they can spit out MSB/LSB or NRPN in the first place. Those that I know use channel pitch messages for their faders which are already 14bit and the cheaper ones only do simple (single) CC messages and wouldn't benefit. But I don't know too many of them, might be bad informed.
Control knobs should all be endless rotaries sending relative messages to make sense anyway. Then the stepping is up to the receiver - or wait, do motorized control knobs exist? I'm getting increasingly unsure the more I write here, please gents, fill me in .

Anyway, totally vote for allowing MSB/LSB and NRPN (and did of course vote for range/curve/stepping). I might want to send them from another application, or there are controllers that send them.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by gofer

I figure it's a problem only with absolute faders on control surfaces and a solution only if they can spit out MSB/LSB or NRPN in the first place. Those that I know use channel pitch messages for their faders which are already 14bit and the cheaper ones only do simple (single) CC messages and wouldn't benefit. But I don't know too many of them, might be bad informed.

No, the problem is *much* bigger than that: we are *not* able to control values accurately using MIDI.

It's a standard option on my cheap ass BCR-2000. No faders. Not motorized.

You can't use pitch bend with REAPER either, but great suggestion: that should of course be possible as well. Even though physical pitch bender controls usually do not have a 14 bit resolution and are centered, making them less than ideal for accurate control. (As you also hinted at: even if only used for MIDI between apps, it would already be useful.)

Originally Posted by gofer

Control knobs should all be endless rotaries sending relative messages to make sense anyway. Then the stepping is up to the receiver [...]

I disagree *strongly*. If I'd set up my endless rotaries as relative controls, I'd have no meaningful indication of their value. Using 14 bit absolute mode on my BCR-2000 endless rotaries gives me both a LED ring and an accurate value on a scale from 0 to 16383 (which works excellent, but via conversion to OSC because REAPER won't let me use it directly, hence this FR). Imho using relative mode does not make much sense at all, it is only a workaround for a lack of parameter feedback. Perhaps you have become a bit too accustomed to REAPER's failure to provide feedback in the first place.

Moreover, REAPER does not provide any stepping either.

[gofer]

Originally Posted by Banned

You can't use pitch bend with REAPER either, but great suggestion: that should of course be possible as well. Even though physical pitch bender controls usually do not have a 14 bit resolution and are centered, making them less than ideal for accurate control. (As you also hinted at: even if only used for MIDI between apps, it would already be useful.)

What I meant was that control surfaces may use 14bit pitch bend messages for their volume faders (like MCU, although that is of course a little better supported via csurf and already 14bit capable in Reaper - I hope!!) I thought BCF did that as well, but dunno. These obviously won't be centered and hopefully use as many of the 16000+ steps as they physically can .

Originally Posted by Banned

I disagree *strongly*. If I'd set up my endless rotaries as relative controls, I'd have no meaningful indication of their value. Using 14 bit absolute mode on my BCR-2000 endless rotaries gives me both a LED ring and an accurate value on a scale from 0 to 16383 (which works excellent, but via conversion to OSC because REAPER won't let me use it directly, hence this FR). Imho using relative mode does not make much sense at all, it is only a workaround for a lack of parameter feedback. Perhaps you have become a bit too accustomed to REAPER's failure to provide feedback in the first place.

Moreover, REAPER does not provide any stepping either.

That is more a problem of the (still missing, if you don't use OSC or csurf) parameter feedback, ain't it? Which is of course bad enough. If both, surface and the host support it, LED rings and displays totally can give you proper readout no matter whether absolute or relative messages are used to control the host. The host gets a "raise value a notch" and sends back the new parameter value which can then be displayed on the surface (maybe that's not true for Reaper+OSC driven parameter feedback).

"REAPER does not provide any stepping" can't logically be (a parameter must be raised/lowered some value when it gets a relative control message and that's a step - how big that step is depends on the receiver alone). What you probably mean is Reaper's learn system doesn't support accelleration (turning faster makes steps bigger and vice versa)?

That all said, we basically agree on it all. 14bit learn system would of course be useful! No debate there at all. (actually, I more or less just want to give this thread it's proper bumpage )

[Banned]

Originally Posted by gofer

What I meant was that control surfaces may use 14bit pitch bend messages for their volume faders (like MCU, although that is of course a little better supported via csurf and already 14bit capable in Reaper - I hope!!) I thought BCF did that as well, but dunno. These obviously won't be centered and hopefully use as many of the 16000+ steps as they physically can .

Ridiculous enough, the BCR-2000 (and iirc the BCF-2000 as well) use a 7-bit resolution when you set a knob to send pitch bend data. Go figure...

But indeed, we'd probably need a few configuration options.

Originally Posted by gofer

That is more a problem of the (still missing, if you don't use OSC or csurf) parameter feedback, ain't it? Which is of course bad enough. If both, surface and the host support it, LED rings and displays totally can give you proper readout no matter whether absolute or relative messages are used to control the host. The host gets a "raise value a notch" and sends back the new parameter value which can then be displayed on the surface (maybe that's not true for Reaper+OSC driven parameter feedback).

"REAPER does not provide any stepping" can't logically be (a parameter must be raised/lowered some value when it gets a relative control message and that's a step - how big that step is depends on the receiver alone). What you probably mean is Reaper's learn system doesn't support accelleration (turning faster makes steps bigger and vice versa)?

That all said, we basically agree on it all. 14bit learn system would of course be useful! No debate there at all. (actually, I more or less just want to give this thread it's proper bumpage )

Yeah, absolute vs. relative is largely a matter of personal preference, given the restrictions of the setup, if any.

With "stepping" I rather meant making bigger steps than the value unit used, i.e. multiplication instead of acceleration - but the issue is similar and can probably indeed be generalised to encompass both.

Thanks for the bump, and let's continue discussing implementation details if only to keep bumping it up.

[Soli Deo Gloria]

I definitely agree with this, I´ve just voted...

[ELP]

Vote for
option(N)RPN 7/14 Bit absolute value learn system!

Only lousy 128 controller options with each 128(0-127) absolute steppings
per channel are not enough.

(You have voted on this issue.)

[Travesty]

*Bump*

[Doc Brown]

14 bit midi is a must, I agree.

[rparmar]

I am really wanting a hi-res OSC controller, but since such things seem to be extinct, I vote for this instead!

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by Doc Brown

14 bit midi is a must, I agree.

Is 14bit MIDI currently available in Reaper's current version 5? Just curious please. Thank you.

[Dstruct]

Originally Posted by lowellben

Is 14bit MIDI currently available in Reaper's current version 5?

In the MIDI editor it's available. Not sure about "MIDI learn" tho ...

[Dstruct]

Some VSTs have NRPN MIDI learn (Ohm Force OhmBoyz, Vember Audio Surge for example). Sending NRPN from MIDI item to these VSTs doesn't make them learn both controllers. They just learn one of the two. Why this? Is NRPN from external MIDI devices different than NRPN from REAPER's MIDI item stream?

SOLVED

[EvilDragon]

Shouldn't be, it's a string of 3 (or 4) CCs in a particular order (99 NRPN MSB, 98 NRPN LSB, 6 Data Value MSB, 38 Data Value LSB).

[Dstruct]

Don't have external MIDI device with NRPN, so I can't test this. Surge Manual says it will recognise NRPN automatically. But it doesn't do it when sending from MIDI items.

SOLVED

CC = Channel Controller (7-bit)
RPN = Registered Parameter Number (14-bit)
RPN = Non Registered Parameter Number (14-bit)

These are different ways to send controller messages via MIDI. But as Surge will recognize them automatically you just have rotate the knob and Surge will learn it.

[EvilDragon]

Are you making sure that NRPN CCs are sent in the exact order stated?

[Dstruct]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Are you making sure that NRPN CCs are sent in the exact order stated?

I'm just using the combined controller lane in MIDI editor ("21/53 14-bit" for example).

EDIT: Surge seems to work. OhmBoyz doesn't (also not from ReaControlMIDI).

[EvilDragon]

That's not enough. NRPN is not the same thing as 14-bit CC. 14-bit CC uses 2 CCs in tandem, one after another (MSB after LSB). NRPN uses THREE always (or sometimes 4). First you need to use CC99 and CC98 to select NRPN parameter address, and then use CC6 (and optionally CC38 if you want 14-bit precision) to select actual value of that NRPN address. Like this, you can control up to 16384 parameters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRPN

[Dstruct]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

That's not enough. NRPN is not the same thing as 14-bit CC. 14-bit CC uses 2 CCs in tandem, one after another (MSB after LSB). NRPN uses THREE always (or sometimes 4). First you need to use CC99 and CC98 to select NRPN address, and then use CC6 (and optionally CC38 if you want 14-bit precision) to select NRPN value. Like this, you can control up to 16384 parameters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRPN

Ok,

I thought the 14-bit CC was the same.

[Dstruct]

Forgot the MIDI link -> VST parameter feature in REAPER. Nice workaround for the OhmBoyz plugin

SOLVED