Old 07-22-2007, 05:19 AM   #1
White Tie
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Default New and improved scrollbar skinning

Or perhaps that should read new and very improved scrollbar skinning - this is the work of Christophe and its seriously clever, allowing you to do everything you've ever wanted to do with scrollbars, with lots more besides. Rejoice!*

This is all about scrollbar.png in your theme directory (here is the test). The BIG change is you now have full contol to define how your scollbars and their backgrounds stretch in reponse to changing zoom levels and window size. This is achieved with the application of our old friend the little pink line. Take a look at this zoomed in view of my test:



Lets look at the horizontal scrollbar. It has three states (from the top - normal / mouseover / mousedown), then a one pixel gap beneath (a safety zone in case you havn't been very accurate with your line dithering) then a one pixel line of pink (RGB: 255 0 255, #: FF00FF). Any gaps in the pink line let the skinning engine know that this area of the scrollbar is okay to be stretched. You'll see that I've been extreme, leaving gaps only beneath the letters 'R' and 'B', telling Reaper to get all its stretching done within the space of those letters, like this:



Hurrah! you can now go and freely put pretty ends on you scrollbars and little 'grab me' features in the middle and the bar will shrink and stretch without distorting them. The same applies to the vertical scrollbar, and also the scrollbar backgrounds.

Beware: if you cover too much area in pink (as I have done here) then you leave the skinning engine with no options when the scrollbar shrinks small (below a size determined by the total length of pink you've used) and it's only choice is to just scrunch the remaining sections into each other. So be sparing with your pink!

One more fun thing to play with: Transparency - That's right! Your scrollbars can show through their backgrounds, opening up lots of interesting possibilities like glass bars, bars with gaps, you name it. (Edit FIXED in 1.880 : One limitation: Be aware that the stretch control on the backgrounds is defeated when they are viewed through the scrollbars etc...)

On a design note, try to put a feature on the ends of your horizontal bars to inform new users that they can grab the ends to rescale. This is a cool Reaper feature and shouldn't be hidden (like some muppet did in his Cornish theme... )

Big, big thanks to Christophe for such a masterful and comprehensive implementation!

*note to self : must get out more

Last edited by White Tie; 07-24-2007 at 01:22 AM. Reason: Transparency fixed in 1.880
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Old 07-22-2007, 07:39 AM   #2
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Nice! Thanks, guys!


umm... just a couple things:

- WT: If i'm doing this right, the order of the horizontal scrollbar buttons on your template is reversed.

- I'm getting some weirdness on the length of my horizontal scrollbar buttons. If i use WT's template, they work fine. But with mine (scrollbar buttons aren't full-height so they fit in the 'track' of the background), i get parts of the verticle background added to the tail end of the horizontal scrollbar button. See image... (verticle scrollbar seems to work fine)

Whad i do wrong? Could it have something to do with the fact that my scrollbar buttons aren't full-height? Again, verticle scrollbar seems to work fine. scrollbar.png is attached.



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Old 07-22-2007, 09:01 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teej813 View Post
- WT: If i'm doing this right, the order of the horizontal scrollbar buttons on your template is reversed.
Indeed - sorry about that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by teej813 View Post
Whad i do wrong? Could it have something to do with the fact that my scrollbar buttons aren't full-height?[/img]
I'd assume its a combination of:

a) you're using trasparency and you've not filled the full space, so your horizontal background is going screwy, and
b) You've run your vertical backgrounds over-tall, straight through the 'pink' zone of the horizontal background.

Fix one or the other or both ... since your design doesn't need transparency, I'd suggest you duplicate the background 'edge bars' in place of the transparent areas in your scrollbars. The effect of skinny scrollbars will be the same provided the backgrounds stay simple.

Looking good!
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Old 07-22-2007, 09:08 AM   #4
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Oops... On second look, the verticle scrollbars are NOT working right either. The length of both vertical & horizontal buttons extend beyond where they should. I assume this is because part of the buttons are transparent, yes?

Can this be fixed? I like the look of narrower buttons resting inside the background 'track'.


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Old 07-22-2007, 09:12 AM   #5
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Gotcha. Thanks, WT. I'll copy the 'track' of the background into the transparent portions of the scrollbar button. Will let you know if that solves it. I should have noticed that the positions of the verticle backgrounds had changed.

Thanks for the help!


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Old 07-22-2007, 10:07 AM   #6
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Making headway, WT. I think this workaround will be fine.

But I'm still having some trouble. Upon closer inspection, i see that the width of the vertical scrollbar backgrounds in your template are different. The one on the left is a pixel narrower than the one on the right. Is that by design?

Same seems to be true of the horizontal scrollbar backgrounds. The top one is one pixel taller than the bottom one.

I don't mean to be a pain, and i can certainly use two different sized backgrounds. But since they both use the same button, won't that throw things off?


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Old 07-22-2007, 11:34 AM   #7
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Got it working. Thanks for the advice, WT. I ended up using the wider/higher version of the background for both.


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Old 07-22-2007, 12:59 PM   #8
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Teej, a thing I'm noticing in your scrollbar.png is that both horizontal and vertical thumbs do not have the pink middle section. The current code actually needs a middle section for the thumbs, even if it's only 1px wide.

Also, your horizontal background doesn't have a correct right side pink section
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Old 07-22-2007, 01:30 PM   #9
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Thanks, Christophe! I appreciate you taking time. Yes, it finally dawned on me that the spacing of the elements is quite different now. Here's a pic of my current scrollbar.png file. Once i got it lined up with WT's new template, it started working fine. I was one pixel off for awhile and couldn't figure out what was wrong.




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Old 07-22-2007, 02:01 PM   #10
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Also, the scrollbar format description has been updated at http://www.reaper.fm/advtheme/
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:07 AM   #11
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I'm noticing that the third state of the "+" and "-" buttons are not being used. I thought I messed something up, but I tried WT's sample file in the OP and got the same result - "off" and "mouseover" work fine but "pushed" is just using the mouseover image.

All other buttons / bars / etc... are working ok.

hm
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:51 AM   #12
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Well spotted, and confirmed here. Not a big deal, maybe this can remain as-is until the next time the scrollbars need attention?
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:19 AM   #13
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Confirmed here as well.

Also, there may be some discrepency in the layout of the scrollbar.png template. Minor stuff, but thought i'd mention it.

According to the Instructions, the pink delimit lines for the horizontal backgrounds should be placed on line 35. This doesn't leave room for two 17px backgrounds plus a blank line. If i'm counting right, WT's template has one 17px background and a 16px background. Mine works with two 17px backgrounds by moving the pink delimit lines to line 36 (and sliding everything else down).

Not sure which is proper, but the instructions appear to be wrong. Same thing happens with other elements of that file.

I tried creating a scrollbar.png following the instructions exactly, and it didn't work. Maybe i messed something up, but something isn't right.


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Old 07-23-2007, 06:11 AM   #14
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Hmmm - counting pixels really hurts the brain! I'm a bit cross eyed and befuddled, so anything I'm about to say could be wrong....

*cough*

My count makes my template two 17px backgrounds and the pink stuff on 36, so I'm guessing this is a typo on the instructions, I think there's several in there (such as Horizontal scrollbar background (on state) - (0,17)-(204,34) should be (0.18), right?) but since I don't hold with any of this counting pixels malarky I suggest you just work over the template, since that seems to work and is less effort

Anyone (who's brain and eyes still function!) correcting me on this is probably correct...
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Old 07-23-2007, 08:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Well spotted, and confirmed here. Not a big deal, maybe this can remain as-is until the next time the scrollbars need attention?
That's ok with me

hm
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Old 07-23-2007, 09:47 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teej813 View Post
According to the Instructions, the pink delimit lines for the horizontal backgrounds should be placed on line 35. This doesn't leave room for two 17px backgrounds plus a blank line. If i'm counting right, WT's template has one 17px background and a 16px background. Mine works with two 17px backgrounds by moving the pink delimit lines to line 36 (and sliding everything else down).

Not sure which is proper, but the instructions appear to be wrong. Same thing happens with other elements of that file.
I used The Gimp for getting the coordinates and it uses a 0-based system, which means the first line is 0. Is Photoshop using a system that starts with 1?
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Old 07-23-2007, 11:15 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christophe View Post
I used The Gimp for getting the coordinates and it uses a 0-based system, which means the first line is 0. Is Photoshop using a system that starts with 1?
photoshop starts at 0 as well
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:01 PM   #18
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ahhhhhhhh... Ok, that definately changes things. I use PhotoShop and assumed a 1-based system. Is there a way in PS to display the location of objects?

Anyway, so horizontal background (off) should run from 0 - 16 and background (on) should run from 17 - 33? That would leave 34 blank and the pink delimiter on 35.

And if we start at zero, isn't the right-most column 203? Whew! gets confusing.



WT,
You're right about your template having two 17px backgrounds. For some reason, the 17th row on the copy of your template i've been using is so faint, i couldn't see it. But after looking closer, i see that it's definately there. My bad...


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Old 07-24-2007, 09:45 AM   #19
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If you make the middle section of the scrollbars 1 pixel, and the sides around 10 or less, it'll all collapse nicely, as opposed to the cluster-fudge that happens, previously, and now, with spans much larger.

So my greatest wish, considering the demo above, would be:
[img]http://img265.**************/img265/1373/untitled2ip5.gif[/img]
The middle section is the middle of the "OLL" span.

This is exciting news though, and I hope other elements that "stretch" get the same sorta treatment...
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Old 07-24-2007, 11:55 AM   #20
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That's a great point, though personally I suspect the temptation to put a little something in the middle will always get me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youn View Post
This is exciting news though, and I hope other elements that "stretch" get the same sorta treatment...
Indeed though I concede there's plenty of fun to be had for now without it.
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Old 07-25-2007, 07:38 PM   #21
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Default Fixed 1.881! Thanks!

My frustration with the Scrollbar is that when grabbing the ends of the horizontal and zooming all the way out, at some point the left handle and edge disappear. even with the pink zone intact.
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:10 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
My frustration with the Scrollbar is that when grabbing the ends of the horizontal and zooming all the way out, at some point the left handle and edge disappear. even with the pink zone intact.
I had that problem too, but then I followed Youn's advice from a couple of posts ago....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youn View Post
If you make the middle section of the scrollbars 1 pixel, and the sides around 10 or less, it'll all collapse nicely, as opposed to the cluster-fudge that happens, previously, and now, with spans much larger.
... and everything works/looks fine now.

hm
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Old 07-26-2007, 08:44 AM   #23
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why are they 17 pixels? mine always get resized to 16 pixels, and they look really blurry. i see from screenshots that some people have all 17 pixels showing, but then their zoom buttons are resized to 17x16 and 16x17, which also looks weird.

believe it or not, this is driving me crazy.
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Old 07-26-2007, 01:43 PM   #24
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i figured it out... the size depends on the Windows Display Properties scrollbar size. the zoom buttons are square but blurry at 16px, while everything else only looks correct at 17px. it's impossible to make the zoom buttons look right.

may be useful information for any perfectionists out there.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:59 AM   #25
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Default Stretched parts scaled differently?

Hi guys,

just working on my first skin, and noticed that with a horizontal bar, different parts of it are stretched inconsistently in the vertical.

Look closely at the black outline of the bar - notice how it shrinks vertically ~1/2 pixel at the ends? (happens at both ends, though maybe not in exactly the same place).



It's not in the source data - any ideas?



EDIT: Doesn't happen on vertical bars.

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Old 06-13-2010, 12:52 PM   #26
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It gets worse if I extend the middle pink section a little for a grabber icon:



So it looks like the stretched parts are blitted slightly taller than the unstretched.

This is on the current Win x64 Reaper btw.
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Old 06-13-2010, 02:34 PM   #27
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Would you post the actual .png please? I've not seen this problem before.
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Old 06-13-2010, 03:16 PM   #28
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TJ, how is that Klingon theme available? Looks very nice!


Quote:
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Nice! Thanks, guys!




tj



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Old 06-14-2010, 01:28 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Would you post the actual .png please? I've not seen this problem before.
Attached (this is from a private skin so please don't use it for anything).

I'm working off the default stock skin & my OS scrollbars are set at 20 pixels.

Edit: forgot to mention that it's most visible on the 'click' image, the normal & mouseover also show it but it's much more subtle. The click image is marginally smaller in the vertical than the others (deliberately) so it's somehow revealing the issue more.
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File Type: png scrollbar.png (44.2 KB, 283 views)

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Old 06-14-2010, 02:28 AM   #30
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I'm not on x64, but it looks OK here.

"my OS scrollbars are set at 20 pixels" might well cause the problem, perhaps the resampling in the pink areas is done differently to that in the stretch areas, but I would suggest they're always going to look a bit sub-optimal anyway since Reaper won't support you doing a higher resolution scrollbar.png like it would with many of its other images.
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:04 AM   #31
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Quote:
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"my OS scrollbars are set at 20 pixels" might well cause the problem
Did you try it with the same settings? If no could you please? Would be good to have a 2nd repro.

And did you see the update to my last post (ie. that's it's most noticable on the clicked image)?

Quote:
perhaps the resampling in the pink areas is done differently to that in the stretch areas, but I would suggest they're always going to look a bit sub-optimal anyway since Reaper won't support you doing a higher resolution scrollbar.png like it would with many of its other images.
Right, but it generally looks good to me except for this which looks awful, so I would class it a bug. I don't see it anywhere else (so far), vertical bars seem to be OK.

Cristophe I assume you're a Cockos dev? (I'm new in town) Could you take a look at this?
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:45 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teej813 View Post
Is there a way in PS to display the location of objects?
In Photoshop (sorry mine is a very old version but pretty sure all versions have this feature).

Window - Show Navigator - Info tab (I believe in preferences you need to have it set to pixels not inches, can't remember the exact pref name).

X Y (circled in attached image) Shows the position of the cursor.

W H shows the Width and Height of an active selection.

Hope that helps.
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Old 06-16-2010, 07:04 AM   #33
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Quote:
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Right, but it generally looks good to me except for this which looks awful, so I would class it a bug. I don't see it anywhere else (so far), vertical bars seem to be OK.

Cristophe I assume you're a Cockos dev? (I'm new in town) Could you take a look at this?
We fixed the background issue in 3.61pre3. It should not leave any weird pixel trails when you move the thumb anymore.

For the scaling of the vertical thumb, it seems for some reason your scrollbar.png's alpha channel messes up our rendering.

If I open it up in Gimp and do Layer->Transparency->Semi-flatten, we get this:



Here is the fixed up version that has no stretching issues:

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/928864/scrollbar.png
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:39 AM   #34
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That's bizarre, the image is created in Photoshop CS2 and I don't see the problem there, this is the transparency channel (Select Layer Transparency -> create mask from it):



It also looks fine viewed in Firefox



So I suspect there's a bug in The Gimp & your code. Are you using the same image libraries as Gimp?

Or how about it's an alpha-channel gamma issue? Two different alpha gamma curves for the stretched & unstretched codepaths?

BTW, I just noticed that my PNGs are 16bit. I author in 16bit as it helps with some gradients, but I always assumed that PNGs are saved as 8bit... anyway this isn't the cause (converting to 8bit prior to saving doesn't help).

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Old 06-16-2010, 11:53 AM   #35
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... your fixed version works, but at the expense of killing edge transparency which isn't ideal (I do a lot of sub-pixel positioning).

It also introduced transparency that didn't exist before, I wonder if The Gimp has trouble with 16bit PNGs:


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Old 06-21-2010, 02:28 PM   #36
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Any news on this Christophe? The latest update said it had scrollbar scaling improvements, but the issue is still there.
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Old 06-25-2010, 06:04 AM   #37
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Found a good workaround, simply placing the scrollbar background under the bars allows me to keep my sub-pixel bar sizes without any edge transparency to trigger the bug. It's not perfect as the scrollbars seems to be slightly differently sized than their backgrounds, but you have to look close to see it.

Would still like to see the issue fixed though.
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