Old 11-14-2012, 01:57 PM   #1
TheWhistler
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Default tempo markers again

Hi, I wanted to remove the first 8 needles bars of a song.



The time selection is 8 bars exactly.

I have lots of tempo markers in that peace because I need to align freely played music for transcribing.
The markers are on every 1 of a bar to match the tempo.



As you can see. Region 2 1.Verse and the related tempo marker are exactly at 25.1.00.

Then I remove the first 8 bars within the time selection using this action: "time selection: Remove contents of time selection (moving later items).



As you can clearly see, the result is not like intended. When removing 8 bars, I want to see the marker to be placed on 17.1.00. Because 25 - 8 = 17.
It is on 16.4.944898 ?????

Do I use the wrong action, can´t believe that. Most likely there is (still) a bug in the way this actions moves the tempo markers.
Or can´t I expect them to stay in there relative positions when removing unwanted bars?

I am using Win7 64 and REAPER 64.

Would be nice if someone could confirm, thanks.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:11 PM   #2
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It is v4.30, right?

I have a song mapped by tempo markers on every beat, so there is really a whole lot of them with the oddest tempo values. As far as I can see "Remove contents of time selection (moving later items)" gives me the expected result, although it's a bit hard to verify because the ruler is behaving a bit odd displaying many [nn.n.98] values where there should be [nn.(n+1).00]. I have to zoom further in than I'd like to see round measures on the ruler... But (assuming none of them slipped past my judgment), other than yours my tempo markers are all exactly where they should be.

Shouldn't there be a view showing tempo markers and/or time sig markers in a list? Similar to the region/marker manager? Surely would have helped me verifying the positions (as would a better ruler display behavior).


I think, the best would be to upload the problem project saved at the state before the measures get deleted. Without audio - actually I think you could even delete the tracks. Of interest for troubleshooting will probably be mostly the tempo map, the time selection and the project settings.
I suspect a rounding error case, it will be good to give the devs some concrete numbers to crunch, I guess




On a side note: Trying this I noticed that the time selection display in the transport was not behaving well. I had a proper readout before triggering the remove contents command [1.1.00], [9.1.00], [8.1.00]. I expect that after the remove contents function I'd get a time selection length of zero, as the time selection gets removed together with its content. Instead what I got was a readout for a zombie selection: [1.1.00], [9.1.01], [8.0.01] (also note the weird .01 values).
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:27 PM   #3
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A gif says more than thousands words.

Reaper 4.30, using the action "Remove contents of time selection (moving later items)"



Edit:
Timebase for items/envelopes/markers: Beats(position,length,rate)
Timebase for tempo/time signature envelope: Beats

Last edited by witti; 11-14-2012 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:03 PM   #4
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Dang! I tried to reproduce (using your positions and values as good as I can tell from your capture). Here is what's happening on this end (XP32 SP3):



Looks ok here.

Maybe there is some setting messing with it? What are your timebase settings for tempo/time signature?
I still think it's best to upload a project saved in a situation that you know goes wrong (before applying remove contents) to look at some definite numbers.

Last edited by gofer; 11-14-2012 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:22 PM   #5
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This little example project was saved with v4.21 but opened with the new 4.30 version.

I made a completely new one with v4.30.

Seems that everything is working fine now !

(At least with this very simple example.)

Sorry, didn't want to shock anyone !
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:51 PM   #6
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Don't worry . It led to a bit of intelligence here.


If you look at the end of my capture, the edit cursor snaps weird when I click on the marker. Actually I have a doubled grid line there. Plus, when I opened the tempo lane on the master track, I saw that the marker - although it reports to be spot on - actually is a tad (less than a sample, actually) in front of the bar. I found out that the setting "Snap to project sample rate" in the snap/grid setting caused that.

@ Whistler:
Can you please look into snap/grid settings for "snap to project sample rate"? And, should it be enabled, give it another shot with sample rate snapping disabled?
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Don't worry . It led to a bit of intelligence here.


If you look at the end of my capture, the edit cursor snaps weird when I click on the marker. Actually I have a doubled grid line there. Plus, when I opened the tempo lane on the master track, I saw that the marker - although it reports to be spot on - actually is a tad (less than a sample, actually) in front of the bar. I found out that the setting "Snap to project sample rate" in the snap/grid setting caused that.

@ Whistler:
Can you please look into snap/grid settings for "snap to project sample rate"? And, should it be enabled, give it another shot with sample rate snapping disabled?
I´ll do that tonite. Would be superb if it would just be a click in the preferences. Thanks Gofer
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
It is v4.30, right?



Shouldn't there be a view showing tempo markers and/or time sig markers in a list? Similar to the region/marker manager? Surely would have helped me verifying the positions (as would a better ruler display behavior).
It is 4.30 and yes sir, a better ruler behavior would be much appreciated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
I think, the best would be to upload the problem project saved at the state before the measures get deleted. Without audio - actually I think you could even delete the tracks. Of interest for troubleshooting will probably be mostly the tempo map, the time selection and the project settings.
I suspect a rounding error case, it will be good to give the devs some concrete numbers to crunch, I guess
Where shall I upload it to?




Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
On a side note: Trying this I noticed that the time selection display in the transport was not behaving well. I had a proper readout before triggering the remove contents command [1.1.00], [9.1.00], [8.1.00]. I expect that after the remove contents function I'd get a time selection length of zero, as the time selection gets removed together with its content. Instead what I got was a readout for a zombie selection: [1.1.00], [9.1.01], [8.0.01] (also note the weird .01 values).
I will check the time selection if properly set up.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:18 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWhistler View Post
Where shall I upload it to?
Right here. When you post a reply you find a "manage attachment" button below the main text input field. It allows to directly upload *rpp files up to a certain size.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Right here. When you post a reply you find a "manage attachment" button below the main text input field. It allows to directly upload *rpp files up to a certain size.
So, here you are. I deleted everything else (Tracks etc.) just the tempo markers are left.
The first 8 bars are selceted and should be deleted.

http://forum.cockos.com/attachment.p...1&d=1353007855

Last edited by TheWhistler; 06-03-2015 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Don't worry . It led to a bit of intelligence here.


If you look at the end of my capture, the edit cursor snaps weird when I click on the marker. Actually I have a doubled grid line there. Plus, when I opened the tempo lane on the master track, I saw that the marker - although it reports to be spot on - actually is a tad (less than a sample, actually) in front of the bar. I found out that the setting "Snap to project sample rate" in the snap/grid setting caused that.

@ Whistler:
Can you please look into snap/grid settings for "snap to project sample rate"? And, should it be enabled, give it another shot with sample rate snapping disabled?
I have tried that. Initially, as you suggested, I had it turned off - doesen´t work, same result weird tempo markers.
I turned it on (just for the sake of it) and it seems to get even worse.
My timebase is beats only because that is the only way to keep items "locked" to "their" bar when removing single markers.

Last edited by TheWhistler; 11-15-2012 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witti View Post
This little example project was saved with v4.21 but opened with the new 4.30 version.

I made a completely new one with v4.30.

Seems that everything is working fine now !

(At least with this very simple example.)

Sorry, didn't want to shock anyone !
Doesn´t shock me at all. Maybe it is because I use a lot of really "odd" tempo markers. It is because I want to match the tempo of a free-tempo recording.
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:13 PM   #13
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What is the tempo value of your first marker after you remove the time selection? When I run it on 4.30 that marker is changed to the project tempo value instead of the value of the marker that was at measure 9. If you go into project settings and change the project tempo to the same value as the marker at measure 9 and then remove the time selection, everything seems to come out right. Seems like a bug to me.
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:18 PM   #14
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Just to confirm, in numerous instances I too noticed (tinny, but still observable) rounding errors in regards to tempo markers and their musical position (yes, I have snapping to sample rate turned off).

And yes, ruler can get pretty wonky with a lot of tempo changes, drives me nuts! Hope it gets fixed.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:22 PM   #15
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I decided to play around with this a bit and I'm kind of sorry I did. Here's what I think is happening.
The time selection runs from 0 to 14.97327555821019 secs on the timeline.

The 'Intro' region runs from 14.97327555820975 to 45.32796373675119 secs and is 30.35468817854144 sec long.

The two overlap by 0.00000000000044 sec. The tempo marker at measure 9 is at 14.97327555821 seconds and is in this overlap area. When the time selection is deleted it encroaches into the 'Intro' region, zaps the marker and shortens the region to 30.35468817854100 secs (our 0.00000000000044 second overlap).

I will now join you in dining on my brain but I suspect I'm going to walk away hungry.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:11 AM   #16
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Thanks, mwe for your detective work. I confirm your findings and think you spotted the gist of the issue.

So we seem to be looking at some error with snapping the time selection here. The position the tempo marker snapped to (and calls it 9.1.00) is not exactly where the time selection thinks 9.1.00 is at.

Hope the devs can make something out of it. I think it will be best to open an issue about it in the Issue Tracker.


Instead of eating your brain, rather give it a candy .
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:40 AM   #17
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I'm sure I saw a preference or project setting to snap tempo changes to bars?

Would that not help or did I miss the point?
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:00 AM   #18
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I thought I remember such an option as well, but couldn't find it. But it seems if there is such a thing I have it enabled.

I took the offending tempo marker from the problem project, moved it (it snapped to 8.3) and then snapped it back to 9.1. It didn't help, the marker snapped to the exact same time position 14.973...8210 again.

A detail that is puzzling me:

In the *rpp file the time selection's time position value consists of two more digits than the position of the tempo envelope points.

a) = Time sel end position, b) = tempo point:

a)14.97327555821019
b)14.973275558210

Isn't that looking for trouble?
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Old 11-16-2012, 04:39 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwe View Post
What is the tempo value of your first marker after you remove the time selection? When I run it on 4.30 that marker is changed to the project tempo value instead of the value of the marker that was at measure 9. If you go into project settings and change the project tempo to the same value as the marker at measure 9 and then remove the time selection, everything seems to come out right. Seems like a bug to me.
Then there would be a workaround. Just changing the tempo of the first marker manually to what it is intended to be instead of the overall tempo.
But that is not a good behavior. The tempo should not be changed at all.
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Old 11-16-2012, 04:40 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeder View Post
Just to confirm, in numerous instances I too noticed (tinny, but still observable) rounding errors in regards to tempo markers and their musical position (yes, I have snapping to sample rate turned off).

And yes, ruler can get pretty wonky with a lot of tempo changes, drives me nuts! Hope it gets fixed.
For my initial task (transcribing and align) this is driving me crazy no matter how small the difference may be.
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Old 11-16-2012, 04:41 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwe View Post
I decided to play around with this a bit and I'm kind of sorry I did. Here's what I think is happening.
The time selection runs from 0 to 14.97327555821019 secs on the timeline.

The 'Intro' region runs from 14.97327555820975 to 45.32796373675119 secs and is 30.35468817854144 sec long.

The two overlap by 0.00000000000044 sec. The tempo marker at measure 9 is at 14.97327555821 seconds and is in this overlap area. When the time selection is deleted it encroaches into the 'Intro' region, zaps the marker and shortens the region to 30.35468817854100 secs (our 0.00000000000044 second overlap).

I will now join you in dining on my brain but I suspect I'm going to walk away hungry.
Can I do somenthing to avoid that manually?
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Old 11-16-2012, 04:42 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
I'm sure I saw a preference or project setting to snap tempo changes to bars?

Would that not help or did I miss the point?
I am not sure if it helps. I want to have the tempomarker to stay at their relative positions aligned with the audio file.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:52 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWhistler View Post
Then there would be a workaround. Just changing the tempo of the first marker manually to what it is intended to be instead of the overall tempo.
But that is not a good behavior. The tempo should not be changed at all.
Well, you would think so. When I tried that it didn't seem to have the same effect though. Bottom line is the action is not functioning as expected. I've never dealt with the issue tracker system but I think that's probably the next step.

Not to breathe fire on the coals but how does this not cause all kinds of problems with MIDI as well? Couldn't a MIDI event happen in one of these overlapping areas too?
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWhistler View Post
Can I do somenthing to avoid that manually?
Try this. Drag the edge of the time selection back to measure 8. Drag the tempo marker back to say 8.3. Drag the edge of the region forward to 10. Now drag the region, tempo marker and time selection back and let them snap to measure 9. Remove the time selection.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:07 PM   #25
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I'm not sure much can be done. Doesn't 0.00000000000044s equal 1 tick of the clock for a 2.3GHz computer i.e. the shortest time it can measure?
mwe, what is the speed your computer runs at?
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:22 PM   #26
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I've done all this on an i3/2.13GHz laptop running Reaper 4.30x64 in W7x64. One interesting thing I noticed after moving the markers around, the time selection still ends at 14.97327555821019 but now the 'Intro' region begins at that same value. The tempo marker is moved to 14.973275558210188. Resnapping everything seems to align stuff much closer.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:55 AM   #27
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Thanks, maybe my maths was a bit off.
I'm wondering whether Reaper is measuring time too accurately.
This would mean a project with time markers wouldn't translate well on a different computer as the markers could fall between the ticks of that computer's clock.
Resnapping everything would solve this for that computer. But how accurate is a computer's clock? I'm out of my depth here! Do the ticks vary at all?
You findings suggest that Reaper takes all those places of decimals as significant. Maybe it shouldn't, and only use the first 6 or 9.
Brain hurts now!
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:02 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwe View Post
Not to breathe fire on the coals but how does this not cause all kinds of problems with MIDI as well? Couldn't a MIDI event happen in one of these overlapping areas too?
One could expect this to make trouble in other situations too, but for me that never happende (and hopefully never will).
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:07 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwe View Post
I've done all this on an i3/2.13GHz laptop running Reaper 4.30x64 in W7x64. One interesting thing I noticed after moving the markers around, the time selection still ends at 14.97327555821019 but now the 'Intro' region begins at that same value. The tempo marker is moved to 14.973275558210188. Resnapping everything seems to align stuff much closer.
I have a Core2Duo at 3 GHz. And mwe did experience quite exactly the same bahavior. The CPU speed should not make any difference, should it? I mean 486-games is another thing, we are talking about modern DAW.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:50 AM   #30
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Quote:
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Try this. Drag the edge of the time selection back to measure 8. Drag the tempo marker back to say 8.3. Drag the edge of the region forward to 10. Now drag the region, tempo marker and time selection back and let them snap to measure 9. Remove the time selection.
I have tried it.....and as far as I see it works but that is a BUG it can not be meant to be this way.
That is f.... arduous.

Thank´s for your help mwe. How did you get to that idea? I was so frustrated considering going back to CUBASE which I know has it´s own issues (side-chain...)

Thank´s again.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:20 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWhistler View Post
I have a Core2Duo at 3 GHz. And mwe did experience quite exactly the same bahavior. The CPU speed should not make any difference, should it? I mean 486-games is another thing, we are talking about modern DAW.
Well this is what I'm wondering.
You see if Reaper is measuring time too accurately you might end up with markers falling between ticks of the clock, effectively disappearing.
I can see how this would give rise to the sort of errors we have been seeing.
Steve
EDIT Meh, forget it. Computers don't work that way. It's just a string of commands and I think all those decimal places on marker times are a red herring I've been focussing on.
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Last edited by bradleyfilms; 11-17-2012 at 05:35 AM. Reason: rethink
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:00 AM   #32
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Whistler, fixed it (I hope)
Place a 4/4 marker on the first bar of your intro i.e. just edit that first time marker.
That's what was missing.
Fingers crossed.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:50 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyfilms View Post
Whistler, fixed it (I hope)
Place a 4/4 marker on the first bar of your intro i.e. just edit that first time marker.
That's what was missing.
Fingers crossed.
Steve
I just DLed the test project and it clearly showed that when the Remove contents of time selection is run it's deleting the tempo marker for bar-8 and inserting the project default tempo based on the Project Settings.

The simple fix here was to use the same tempo in Project Settings that shows on bar-8 before deleting the space.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:23 AM   #34
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Here's another wrinkle. The tempo marker at measure 5 has 'Allow a partial measure before this measure' checked. If you uncheck that then delete the time selection and create a new one, the remove action works as expected. It'll also work if you uncheck the box then drag the end of the time selection back to before measure 5 and then resnap it to measure 9.

I think all of these shenanigans are basically accomplishing the same thing, forcing Reaper to recalculate where things are in relation to the timeline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWhistler View Post
How did you get to that idea?
Breeder's comments about rounding errors and my own observations about peculiar timeline behavior. It occurred to me that moving things around would cause things to be recalculated. I'm still not entirely sure if this really gets to the gist of the issue or if it's just a happy accident though.

Last edited by mwe; 11-17-2012 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:39 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwe View Post
Here's another wrinkle. The tempo marker at measure 5 has 'Allow a partial measure before this measure' checked. If you uncheck that then delete the time selection and create a new one, the remove action works as expected. It'll also work if you uncheck the box then drag the end of the time selection back to before measure 5 and then resnap it to measure 9.

I think all of these shenanigans are basically accomplishing the same thing, forcing Reaper to recalculate where things are in relation to the timeline.
That´s right, I must have clicked this accidentally, can´t remember. What does this cause, odd measures?
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:28 AM   #36
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That´s right, I must have clicked this accidentally, can´t remember. What does this cause, odd measures?
Lol, yes in a way.
You'd use it every time the preceding bar/measure isn't 4/4.
For example you have a bar in 7/8 followed by one in 4/4. If the grid is set the quarters you'd see 3.5 beats in one and the other beat markers would be offset by 1/2 a beat. That box stops this and has your bar start on the beat.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:22 PM   #37
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Thanks, duplicated this and will hopefully have it fixed soon.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:45 PM   #38
nofish
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Just for reference (though I guess it's the same issue), link to the older thread (along with schwa's comment in post #7)

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=111370
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:03 PM   #39
TheWhistler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Thanks, duplicated this and will hopefully have it fixed soon.
So I am confused now. Is this an issue/bug, or have I done something wrong?
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:24 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWhistler View Post
So I am confused now. Is this an issue/bug, or have I done something wrong?
There is a bug (less than ideal handling of tempo markers in certain instances when removing time), and it will be fixed or at least improved in the next builds.
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