Old 03-02-2013, 02:40 AM   #1
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Default Insert empty space, measure not time

Hi!

I'd like to insert a measure of empty space in front of my project.
Currently there's a linear tempo transition i the start.
Now, when I select a bar and hit "insert empty space at time selection (moving later items)" things get really out of place.
Seems like Reaper deals with time and not beats here.

So, maybe an action:
"Insert measures at edit cursor (moving later items.."
and a dialog to specify number.
?

Or, I'm I missing something?
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:47 AM   #2
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Hm.. tried flat tempo for a beat,
and using that to insert new space.
And.. bug again,
Reaper inserts the correct time, but uses projects default tempo, and not tempo at edit-cursor.
Result is screwed beat-position for everything.

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Old 03-02-2013, 02:57 AM   #3
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Had to make a region for everything, move it back, and then to bar2..
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:26 AM   #4
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you talking about insert measure from time selection? Change project bpm to bpm of item in your time selection. Then change it back.
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:40 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazed View Post
you talking about insert measure from time selection? Change project bpm to bpm of item in your time selection. Then change it back.
Yes, of course
I'll remember next time
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:35 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
Now, when I select a bar and hit "insert empty space at time selection (moving later items)" things get really out of place.
Hi Geir, I use that action all the time to do this and never had a problem with it.

If I time select 1 measure, it inserts 1 measure moving everything ahead 1 measure. If I time select 2 measures, it inserts 2 measures moving everything ahead 2 measures.


So that doesn't work for you?
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:40 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi Geir, I use that action all the time to do this and never had a problem with it.

If I time select 1 measure, it inserts 1 measure moving everything ahead 1 measure. If I time select 2 measures, it inserts 2 measures moving everything ahead 2 measures.


So that doesn't work for you?
No, it didn't..
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:24 AM   #8
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Okay, I just did some experimenting.

I have a project with a 120 BPM tempo.

Starting at the very front I insert 1 then 2 bars and it works perfectly.

Then I added tempo markers to bars 1, 2, and 3 (116, 115, and 110 respectively).

Now when I time select 1 bar starting at the front and run the action it not only goes wonky, but bar #2 is completely missing and the grids all screwy.

So using "Insert empty space at time selection (moving later items)" doesn't work if there are varying time signatures.
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:55 PM   #9
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That's odd. Just tested this with your values and everything is fine here. One bar inserted into beginning and since it's in the same tempo as the previous 1st bar (116), previous 115 mark is now at bar 3 and 110 at bar 4.

I used the Insert empty space in selection action, seems to work the same with Insert empty space at time selection (moving later items).
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:40 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by xpander View Post
That's odd. Just tested this with your values and everything is fine here. One bar inserted into beginning and since it's in the same tempo as the previous 1st bar (116), previous 115 mark is now at bar 3 and 110 at bar 4.

I used the Insert empty space in selection action, seems to work the same with Insert empty space at time selection (moving later items).
Hi xpander, if the project BPM (Project Settings) is 116 then it will work but if the project BPM is different (mine was 120) then it gets wonky, at least it did for me.

Also try insert a bar starting ot bar-2 (115 BPM), things also end up a little strange, bar #1 ends up at 115.498 BPM.

Then try it at bar#3 which is 110 BPM. Bar-2 ends up at 112.44 BPM.

Of course hit Ctrl-Z at the end of each test to undo and take it back.

Check that out and see what you get.
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Old 03-02-2013, 04:51 PM   #11
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Thanks for the further test notes Tod. There seems to be something funny going on with example like yours.

Quote:
Also try insert a bar starting ot bar-2 (115 BPM), things also end up a little strange, bar #1 ends up at 115.498 BPM.
Then try it at bar#3 which is 110 BPM. Bar-2 ends up at 112.44 BPM.
Initially I didn't have the Start new measure, time signature: checked in the Edit temp/time signature window. So just tempo changes, nothing else. Set like that, each inserted empty space pushed the following measures off the grid. The start of the measures were still at xx.1.00 points, but there was an extra space in the end of the inserted space, making it appear 4+ beats and pushing later measures visually off the grid. The tempos shown by the markers were even numbers like they were set.

Then I ticked Start new measure, time signature:in the Edit temp/time signature window for each tempo marker. Now I got the same tempos you described above when inserting the empty spaces. Also, the tiny extra beat which pushed the later measures off the grid in the first try was still there at the end of the inserted space, but now it didn't push the later measures off the grid. Instead it made the inserted empty space as a whole appear like 4+ beats, but within the space of regular 4 beat measure.

Really interesting thing happened when I unchecked again the Start new measure, time signature: in the Edit temp/time signature window for each marker. Now inserting empty space works like expected in every bar, no extra space, no off grid measures, no uneven tempos shown? This might require further studies...

---
edit:
Example picture of above behavior
https://i.imgur.com/iV70ma1.png

Only that this time checking Start new measure, time signature:in the Edit temp/time signature window for each tempo marker was enough to fix all this. Hard to grasp, this one.

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Old 03-03-2013, 01:22 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander View Post
I used the Insert empty space in selection action, seems to work the same with Insert empty space at time selection (moving later items).
Ok, I wasn't aware of the other. Is there any difference in behavior? (I can't see any)
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Old 03-03-2013, 04:12 AM   #13
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They must both be the same, just named differently in different places, so inconsistency in that regard. When using
Insert empty space in selection action, list of recent actions shows Insert empty space at time selection (moving later items).
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Old 03-03-2013, 08:20 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Okay, I just did some experimenting.

I have a project with a 120 BPM tempo.

Starting at the very front I insert 1 then 2 bars and it works perfectly.

Then I added tempo markers to bars 1, 2, and 3 (116, 115, and 110 respectively).

Now when I time select 1 bar starting at the front and run the action it not only goes wonky, but bar #2 is completely missing and the grids all screwy.

So using "Insert empty space at time selection (moving later items)" doesn't work if there are varying time signatures.
No it doesn't work if the project BPM and the BPM of the marked selection are different.
Just temporarily adjust the project BPM the Reaper will insert a space based on the 'correct' bpm.

e.g.
You say you want one measure at 85 bpm which equals a certain amount of time. Reaper then gives you a measure but at the project BPM. The two lengths won't match in time.

What we need I think. Look at insert measure from time selection but with the ability to change the BPM in that dialog.
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazed View Post
No it doesn't work if the project BPM and the BPM of the marked selection are different.
Just temporarily adjust the project BPM the Reaper will insert a space based on the 'correct' bpm.

e.g.
You say you want one measure at 85 bpm which equals a certain amount of time. Reaper then gives you a measure but at the project BPM. The two lengths won't match in time.

What we need I think. Look at insert measure from time selection but with the ability to change the BPM in that dialog.
We need insert x measures. Bpm should be flat with value of insert-point.
For anybody working inside grid, anything else is pointless.
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:47 AM   #16
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I checked things out again today and got a few different results but still less than desirable.

Pict 1 shows the starting setup.

Pict 2 shows inserting space at the very front. This seems to work if the Project BPM is the same as the first measure.

Picts 3 & 4 show inserted space at measures 2 & 3 respectively. Notice the same off the grid spacing that xpander mentioned.

It also appears the only problems occur at measures with tempo changes.

https://stash.reaper.fm/15728/Insert%...0Space%201.PNG


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Old 03-03-2013, 05:59 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
We need insert x measures. Bpm should be flat with value of insert-point.
For anybody working inside grid, anything else is pointless.
I agree, again look at the dialog on the 'insert measure from time selection' dialog. Thats got the number of measure you want to insert and the bpm. Just the bpm is not editable.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:14 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazed View Post
I agree, again look at the dialog on the 'insert measure from time selection' dialog. Thats got the number of measure you want to insert and the bpm. Just the bpm is not editable.
Yes, that's one I wasn't aware of.
Edit: That's "create", not "insert"
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:16 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I checked things out again today and got a few different results but still less than desirable.

Pict 1 shows the starting setup.

Pict 2 shows inserting space at the very front. This seems to work if the Project BPM is the same as the first measure.

Picts 3 & 4 show inserted space at measures 2 & 3 respectively. Notice the same off the grid spacing that xpander mentioned.

It also appears the only problems occur at measures with tempo changes.
Nice illustration Tod
Note that for 5.1.00 is not a mark for anything.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:47 AM   #20
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Im having the exaxt same problem: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=122451
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:32 PM   #21
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Sory for double post, but i found the solution! Go to file -> project settings -> project tempo, and make the default tempo the same as in the area you want to change.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:22 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Sory for double post, but i found the solution! Go to file -> project settings -> project tempo, and make the default tempo the same as in the area you want to change.
Look in the 2nd picture of my post above.
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Old 10-07-2016, 10:54 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
Hi!

I'd like to insert a measure of empty space in front of my project.
(We need to be able to do it anywhere-FnA)
Currently there's a linear tempo transition i the start.
Now, when I select a bar and hit "insert empty space at time selection (moving later items)" things get really out of place.
Seems like Reaper deals with time and not beats here.

So, maybe an action:
"Insert measures at edit cursor (moving later items.."
and a dialog to specify number.
?
(very good-FnA)
Or, I'm I missing something?
I insert bold comments into the quotation.

I wasn't aware of this thread when I posted the bug report on insert empty space and similar SWS action in August. I also thought regions might be a solution. It hasn't worked out. I tried the trick with the project tempo settings and it doesn't seem to prevent all errors either. These kinds of problems are causing me such frustration and extra work that I think I might have to try another arrangement platform. Leaning toward Cubase Pro. I know I will find bugs and disappointments there too. They just don't seem to take this seriously. And no one has really been too vocal lately either.
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Old 10-08-2016, 10:20 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FnA View Post
I insert bold comments into the quotation.

I wasn't aware of this thread when I posted the bug report on insert empty space and similar SWS action in August. I also thought regions might be a solution. It hasn't worked out. I tried the trick with the project tempo settings and it doesn't seem to prevent all errors either. These kinds of problems are causing me such frustration and extra work that I think I might have to try another arrangement platform. Leaning toward Cubase Pro. I know I will find bugs and disappointments there too. They just don't seem to take this seriously. And no one has really been too vocal lately either.


Wasn't aware of this thread too. But I was experiencing issues with this, often destroying my arrangements. Seriously working in reaper does gave ptsd, back problems, stress. And on those forums some people do take the piss and make you seem like a wacko. I will be moving to cubase asap.
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Old 10-09-2016, 11:30 AM   #25
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It will be a while before I actually do it. I can afford the purchase now, but want to read the manual before trying the trial version. I have not taken Studio One off the table yet either. It's not a sudden "get mad at one thing and vent" decision. Difficulty keeping things in their proper place has been my number one gripe for years. The only one serious enough to urge this decision on. I actually like the Reaper workflow a lot and see some things in literature for other DAWs that makes me say "That sucks." But this is a critical area for me (the tempo related misplacements.) It's supposed to work and doesn't. And hasn't. And maybe never will. A year went into the MIDI tracklist and two now since appearance of Lua Score Editor. Have to draw the line somewhere. I wish some Reaper veterans familiar with recent versions of other DAWs would help.
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Old 10-09-2016, 11:36 AM   #26
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For me this is not a big issue right now.
Just make sure the project tempo matches target.
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Old 10-09-2016, 01:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FnA View Post
It will be a while before I actually do it. I can afford the purchase now, but want to read the manual before trying the trial version. I have not taken Studio One off the table yet either. It's not a sudden "get mad at one thing and vent" decision. Difficulty keeping things in their proper place has been my number one gripe for years. The only one serious enough to urge this decision on. I actually like the Reaper workflow a lot and see some things in literature for other DAWs that makes me say "That sucks." But this is a critical area for me (the tempo related misplacements.) It's supposed to work and doesn't. And hasn't. And maybe never will. A year went into the MIDI tracklist and two now since appearance of Lua Score Editor. Have to draw the line somewhere. I wish some Reaper veterans familiar with recent versions of other DAWs would help.
Same here man. Although I have Cubase LE7, and read manual for that. That manual explaind things in a very solid manner, and I knew all of LE after reading it. The proggram itself is suepr solid too, thought I did had couple of crashes! So probably expect that bit more then reaper, thought it is le7 and not 8.
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Old 10-09-2016, 02:03 PM   #28
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Quote:
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For me this is not a big issue right now.
Just make sure the project tempo matches target.
I might post a link in my bug report. It might help in some/many cases, but it fails when end of time selection goes past another tempo point. A person also may have to move a point at the beginning of time selection forward in time a little to get desired result. All in all, a hack.

Thanks, Mik. I have read a few stories about how Cubase might not be as efficient as some other DAWs, not just Reaper. Reaper used to crash a lot for me until I at one time disabled auto-save and a Novation driver. I never re-enabled them one at a time to see which was the cause. Still get occasional rare crash, probably from plugins.
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Old 10-10-2016, 03:53 AM   #29
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Checking this one now.
Related:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...46#post1740746
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Old 10-10-2016, 03:59 AM   #30
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Yes, you're right.
For tempo-changing parts this screws up every-thing.
I'm not able to get exact results even with tweaking project-setting tempo.
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Old 10-10-2016, 02:36 PM   #31
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Thanks for trying it out G-Sun.
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Old 08-09-2017, 03:17 AM   #32
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Four years late, but this new script might help:

js_Time selection - Insert empty beats at time selection (moving later items)
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:54 AM   #33
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wow. Thanks a lot!
Looking forward to test and use.
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