Old 04-15-2014, 08:31 PM   #1
AbstractDissonance
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Default Combing different projects with different locations

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=5165

I have several projects that I have created parts of songs in. They involve different time signatures and all start around bar 0 in each separate project. When I copy the tracks from one project into another they overlap and get all messed up because of the different tempos, time signatures, and such. I want them to essentially be sequential so that when one ends the other starts and not overlap.

If I just copy the track it is a PITA as so many things are off. Maybe I could essentially merge the project files somehow by copying the xml? (maybe a utility would do it well?)

Any ideas how to achieve this easily?

(The automation always seems to be off as if it's position was calculated wrong. I'll start a bug report)

Attached Files
File Type: rpp First Project.RPP (3.1 KB, 105 views)
File Type: rpp Second Project.RPP (3.8 KB, 113 views)

Last edited by AbstractDissonance; 04-16-2014 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:11 AM   #2
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Setting the MIDI item timebase to Time (Item Properties) before copying it will align the envelope correctly when pasted into another project. Or ignoring the Project tempo from the (MIDI item) Source properties.

Same deal as with the overlapping items when changing the time signature (from another thread and bug report).

This of course might not be what you are expecting to happen or having to do before x and y. All the different timebase possibilities and how they affect audio and MIDI in each case are not that clear or simple to use, I think that much has been said by the devs too.
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Old 04-16-2014, 06:01 AM   #3
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There's a way to merge/append projects within Reaper:

Track -> Insert track from template -> Open template

then in the file dialog which opens change the file extension dropdown from "REAPER Track Template" to "Project files".
If you load a Reaper project like this, the contained tracks get appended at the bottom of the current project.

In the "Insert track from template" menu there's also a menu item "Offset template items by edit cursor" which might be useful in your case.

I've never tried this way merging projects with different time sigs, because I rarely use anything other than 4/4, so I'm not sure if it works, but maybe worth a try.

edit:
I just tested this with your example projects. Nah, doesn't seem to work correctly, sorry. It doesn't import the tempo/time sig markers this way.

Last edited by nofish; 04-16-2014 at 06:10 AM.
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:20 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander View Post
Setting the MIDI item timebase to Time (Item Properties) before copying it will align the envelope correctly when pasted into another project. Or ignoring the Project tempo from the (MIDI item) Source properties.

Same deal as with the overlapping items when changing the time signature (from another thread and bug report).

This of course might not be what you are expecting to happen or having to do before x and y. All the different timebase possibilities and how they affect audio and MIDI in each case are not that clear or simple to use, I think that much has been said by the devs too.

But the bug is that the automation envelopes do not have the same timebase as the track. Not that one timebase works right.

The automation envelopes should never shift or scale differently than the tracks they are part of regardless of timebase. Yet they do. This means either that there is a bug in the specific time base used or that the envelopes are not using the same time base as the track.

Either way, the behavior shown in the image is a bug. It simply should never happen.
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Old 04-16-2014, 12:03 PM   #5
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You are having different Framerates in these projects. Why ?
Are you planning to transfer Video to Film?
The framerate has impact on the envelopes!
Copy and paste from 25 fps to 23.975 fps ?

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Old 04-16-2014, 12:19 PM   #6
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I do agree that it's not quite expected to have envelopes behave differently than the items they are related to, except when so chosen. Those automation envelopes are not strictly tied to the items, but rather to the tracks within a project. They can follow items though, if so engaged, Envelope points move with media items button on the main toolbar. This seems to help somewhat with your problem also, copying between projects.

There are item based Take envelopes also. I would expect these to bind to the same timebase rules as their host items, but have never checked that specifically.

It's hard for me to give an universal guide to solve these kind of problems when "so many things are off". I can relate to simple examples given (like your RPPs) and try to give some solutions to problems visible there. I believe the automation improvements are high up on the feature request list and there are members here who have done a lot of work researching and presenting those ideas. As much as I would like, I'm afraid I'm not quite at the level to see the deeper problems in the system in this regard. Sure hope some others will get into this case too.

Last edited by xpander; 04-16-2014 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 04-16-2014, 02:56 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinodXAgent View Post
You are having different Framerates in these projects. Why ?
Are you planning to transfer Video to Film?
The framerate has impact on the envelopes!
Copy and paste from 25 fps to 23.975 fps ?
I have no idea. They came exactly from the same project template. If they do have different frame rates then it must be a bug cause I did not change anything.

In any case, it doesn't matter. The envelopes should not change there relative position to the items.

(Edit: BTW, when I open both projects, they are both in 23.975fps, so it must be on your end)

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Old 04-16-2014, 03:06 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by xpander View Post
I do agree that it's not quite expected to have envelopes behave differently than the items they are related to, except when so chosen. Those automation envelopes are not strictly tied to the items, but rather to the tracks within a project. They can follow items though, if so engaged, Envelope points move with media items button on the main toolbar. This seems to help somewhat with your problem also, copying between projects.

There are item based Take envelopes also. I would expect these to bind to the same timebase rules as their host items, but have never checked that specifically.

It's hard for me to give an universal guide to solve these kind of problems when "so many things are off". I can relate to simple examples given (like your RPPs) and try to give some solutions to problems visible there. I believe the automation improvements are high up on the feature request list and there are members here who have done a lot of work researching and presenting those ideas. As much as I would like, I'm afraid I'm not quite at the level to see the deeper problems in the system in this regard. Sure hope some others will get into this case too.

This is still not correct. If an envelope starts at exactly 2min on a track and an midi item starts exactly at 2min on a track, when you copy and paste the track, the midi item should still start exactly where the envelope starts.

I don't see how you can justify reapers behavior. Coping and pasting a track is suppose to produce the exact same result. Else you are not copying a track.

If you copy and paste a paragraph from word into notepad you don't expect or want the words to change or the sentences to reorder themselves... yet that is exactly what is going on here.

So, you can say, well, the envelopes are using different time bases than the items on the track, or whatever... and that might be the case, but that is not normal or desired in any case. (why? Cause when you paste something you expect it to be an *exact* copy, not some thing that changes what you are trying to copy)

Now, maybe VinodXAgent is right and it's a fps issue... regardless, it's a bug. Reaper is not calculating the offsets(or possibly scale) correctly because, then, it is not taking into account the fps difference.

For us to have any intelligent conversation you have to agree that the behavior is invalid. If you can't agree with that then there can be no discussion about anything. If you want to prove to me that the behavior is correct then explain one practical circumstance where this behavior is desired.

If you are doing videos and one project is in 25fps and 23.975fps and you want to merge then, you copy the tracks from one to another(insert silence to make room), and all the envelopes are now shifted then all the work you did to make them right in the first place was wasted.... Who wants that?
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:19 PM   #9
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Here is the bug:

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Old 04-16-2014, 03:48 PM   #10
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What happens if you both copy and paste without snapping on (just as a test)? Do they stay lined up?
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:57 PM   #11
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What happens if you both copy and paste without snapping on (just as a test)? Do they stay lined up?
Snapping has nothing to do with it. As you can see, changing the tempo is what causes the envelope to get out of synch... but it always stays in the same plays the original tempo. Which means it is using the wrong tempo.

Even if snapping had something to do with it, it shouldn't matter... still a bug. (that is, even if I turned off snapping and it worked, still a bug in reaper)
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:03 PM   #12
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Ok, go report it.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbstractDissonance View Post
I don't see how you can justify reapers behavior. Coping and pasting a track is suppose to produce the exact same result. Else you are not copying a track.
---
For us to have any intelligent conversation you have to agree that the behavior is invalid. If you can't agree with that then there can be no discussion about anything. If you want to prove to me that the behavior is correct then explain one practical circumstance where this behavior is desired.
?
Please do note that I'm just one user of Reaper. I really appreciate your attempts to show us what seems to be wrong and hope that you do continue doing that. As long as these kind of discussions can be kept constructive, there's hope that some insights for possibly better ways can be pushed forward.

I don't think I've personally at any point of this discussion declared that these copying problems or any specific related behavior would be acceptable for me. You approached with a problem, well, multiple of them and asked for some help. Some of us tried to offer some hands on things to try, regardless of what the underlying bigger problems in the software might be.

I'm sorry to hear that my personal limitation of not understanding the possible deeper issues within Reaper in this regard could also be a problem for others? Like suggested, you can well report the issues.
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Old 04-16-2014, 11:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander View Post
?
Please do note that I'm just one user of Reaper. I really appreciate your attempts to show us what seems to be wrong and hope that you do continue doing that. As long as these kind of discussions can be kept constructive, there's hope that some insights for possibly better ways can be pushed forward.

I don't think I've personally at any point of this discussion declared that these copying problems or any specific related behavior would be acceptable for me. You approached with a problem, well, multiple of them and asked for some help. Some of us tried to offer some hands on things to try, regardless of what the underlying bigger problems in the software might be.

I'm sorry to hear that my personal limitation of not understanding the possible deeper issues within Reaper in this regard could also be a problem for others? Like suggested, you can well report the issues.
If we can't even agree that the initial behavior is wrong or bad then anything I say to try and solve it means nothing to you(or who ever else believes that it is not wrong or bad).

If we can't agree on certain fundamental facts then there can be no discussion and no logic. All I was asking about is why the copy and pasting was off. Copy/Paste is not some rare thing but is one of the most common things done with computers. There is a certain set behavior that one expects of it. When it deviates there is a problem either due to the user or the system.

Agree?

Hence, when you say something like: "It's the timebase" or "It's the fps" or whatever, those are completely irrelevant to the fact that the copy and paste or not working correctly. not only that, they distract from the real issue by creating noise.

Why? Because I am copying something that has a certain structure and when I do a simple paste the structure is lost/changes. Almost always this is bad(in some cases it is what you want).

Then the rub is this: You then make claims it could be due to x, y, or z.

This shows either you don't understand what is really going on or believe what it is doing is ok. So even after all the work I've done you are still trying to figure out how to justify the behavior.

Which, again, just pushes us further down the rabbit hole because you are ignoring the fact that the envelopes SHOULD NEVER be out of sync with how they were created in the first place except if done intentionally(by selecting all the points and moving them). No one that uses computers would desire or expect such behavior from a simple copy and paste yet that is exactly what happens. You have to call a spade a spade and not skirt round the issue or make excuses. I'd rather be wrong with something that looks so obvious then pretend it is the way things are suppose to be.

This is what has happened in a nut shell:

Me: Hey! WTF!! I let go of this basketball and it flew up into the sky! This is not what I expected to happen! Whats going on?

You: Well, Sometimes basketballs fly up in the air. Is there a string attached to it? [You make an implicit assumption here that I must not know much about copy/paste because you validate reapers behavior and move in the direction that it is explainable by some way or another]

Me: No? WTF!! Every time I've dropped any other ball in very similar circumstances they have fallen to the ground. Also, when I have seen everyone else do it I have seen that happen... except, of course, when people kick balls up in the air on purpose, but this is not what is happening.


You: Yeah, I agree BUT in some cases balls do go up. Sometimes, once every 24000 years gravity reverses itself.

Me: Yeah, I don't care about hypothetical. I'm dropping this fu#$ing ball and it flies up in the air. Here's a video.

You: Yeah, Looks like a problem with reaper but it could be these other things because balls are usually round objects. Sometimes they are made of rubber allowing them to bounce, sometimes made of wood. Heck, sometimes they are colored orange instead of yellow. (i.e., distractions: fps, snap, take envelopes, envelopes are not actually part of items etc... all, again, irrelevant)

Me: Yeah, but WTF does that have to do with the ball flying up in the air?

....

So, such an argument could go on forever because you simply are not discussing the same thing. I am talking about the behavior of what is happening in my specific case and you are talking about what the behavior could be in certain cases or stuff that is completely irrelevant to the copy/paste.

If I copy/paste something, Take envelopes, snapping, *tempo*, time signatures, midi or audio, which vst is used, etc... should not change the internal structure of what I am copying from what I am pasting.


It's really very simple. As I said before, no one desires or expects when they do a simple copy and paste of something they spend time to then be all screwed up when they paste. They want the internal structure of it to be consistent... else they just wasted a lot of hours. Sometimes they want to reshape things but only if they say so.


While you might "get" it, I'm not sure if you *get* it. Again, I'd rather be wrong and call it a bug when it obviously looks like one then pretend it is some weird advanced feature of reaper that just makes you work harder to get things they way they are because you need to exercise your finger muscles and spend some TLC with your mouse. At the very least, if I'm wrong, no big deal... easy fix. Someone will tell me I'm stupid and I'll at least be able to get what I need done, done.

Now, if you actually read all that, give yourself a cookie. You deserve it.
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Old 04-17-2014, 06:29 AM   #15
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Thanks AbstractDissonance, you're quite entertaining when you really get into it. Of course debates like this won't further the cause but just bury the real problems deeper behind needless arguments. Something that I would rather avoid, but since it's your thread, you seem to be addressing me and are pretty civil about it, maybe once more.

You are mistaken in that some of the steps suggested to you wouldn't generally serve any purpose. As I see it, they actually should do two things. First of all, they should try to help you keep going, doing what you want to do, instead of getting stuck on the problem, no matter what they are. I believe that to be the reason help is usually given to anybody in the first place. If it's just a distraction for you, that is thus duly noted and I will avoid it in your future topics.

Second, if and when somebody (anybody) would like to look deeper into why these problems are happening, these different tips offered and how they work should help seeing all the possible relationships between them. Like you so eloquently put it, me saying it "could be due to x, y, or z" is exactly part of that. Although on this specific issue I haven't literally stated what all could be reasons for the behavior described, just hinted that there might be options which could affect it. If you really want to get deeper into it, I think you should research and know them?

Pretty good forum search to help you
https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=0...08:nbhva-j9iic

Quote:
While you might "get" it, I'm not sure if you *get* it.
I think I've myself already said so twice. Third time's a charm, right?

Have a good day.

---
edit: looking back, I do have to apologize for not stating clearly enough early on that in my setup, with my projects, I have not seen this issue. In the same vein, I was apparently not stating clearly enough that what I suggested were just things that seemed to help alleviate the problem with your files, not some general rules by which things work. Thanks for helping me to see those shortfalls, I appreciate that.

Last edited by xpander; 04-17-2014 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 04-17-2014, 06:47 AM   #16
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Dear Original Poster,
english is not my first language but i want to contribute to this forum. Would you please take this into accounts. Or as the german proverb says: Der Ton macht die Musik!
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Old 04-17-2014, 12:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander View Post
Thanks AbstractDissonance, you're quite entertaining when you really get into it. Of course debates like this won't further the cause but just bury the real problems deeper behind needless arguments. Something that I would rather avoid, but since it's your thread, you seem to be addressing me and are pretty civil about it, maybe once more.

You are mistaken in that some of the steps suggested to you wouldn't generally serve any purpose. As I see it, they actually should do two things. First of all, they should try to help you keep going, doing what you want to do, instead of getting stuck on the problem, no matter what they are. I believe that to be the reason help is usually given to anybody in the first place. If it's just a distraction for you, that is thus duly noted and I will avoid it in your future topics.

Second, if and when somebody (anybody) would like to look deeper into why these problems are happening, these different tips offered and how they work should help seeing all the possible relationships between them. Like you so eloquently put it, me saying it "could be due to x, y, or z" is exactly part of that. Although on this specific issue I haven't literally stated what all could be reasons for the behavior described, just hinted that there might be options which could affect it. If you really want to get deeper into it, I think you should research and know them?

Pretty good forum search to help you
https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=0...08:nbhva-j9iic


I think I've myself already said so twice. Third time's a charm, right?

Have a good day.

---
edit: looking back, I do have to apologize for not stating clearly enough early on that in my setup, with my projects, I have not seen this issue. In the same vein, I was apparently not stating clearly enough that what I suggested were just things that seemed to help alleviate the problem with your files, not some general rules by which things work. Thanks for helping me to see those shortfalls, I appreciate that.
You don't have to apologize for anything. Things are what they are. While I know you were only trying to help sometimes it's not the argument that is fault but the hypothesis. Reaper's midi editing is extremely buggy(compared to other software). This alone suggests any reports of midi issues that are make little sense are probably bugs. BUT if you assume that reaper is not buggy then it will steer the argument of course. You simply have to sometimes assume that the person "asking for help" actually is not a complete moron and is doing things as you would.

Obviously, in my example about the ball... if I were throwing the ball up in the air and saying "WTF, why is the ball going up" then I'm a moron or joker.

Basically sometimes the help is worse than the cure in some sense. It's like if I went to the doctor for stomach pains and wants to amputate my little toe on my right foot because he thinks it smells funny. I'm going to get upset and tell him he's a moron. Maybe I'm the moron, but that's the world we live in. The big issue I have with it, is that if he is right and it's my toe that is the problem he hasn't explained it to me why it would be that way.... and yet charges me and arm and at toe. If he's wrong, I'm still sick to my stomach... and now I can't wear flip flops to the beach because it would be embarrassing.

In any case, I guess we could have argued about all this until we became unconscious cause nothing will make Cockos fix this sooner than it will... and while I could hack together a solution it will never be as good as the best one. I just hope convincing Cockos that it is a bug is not as hard as you (The previous bug I reported they fixed within a day, which was great)
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Old 04-17-2014, 12:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinodXAgent View Post
Dear Original Poster,
english is not my first language but i want to contribute to this forum. Would you please take this into accounts. Or as the german proverb says: Der Ton macht die Musik!
Sure, I'm glad you can speak english so well. Your statements made sense to me... unless it is actually not what you meant. Regardless, though, the argument was still flawed in that the projects did not have different fps(on my end at least) and even if true would still point to it as a bug.
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Old 04-17-2014, 01:20 PM   #19
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Have you reported this bug yet?

Seems to me you are more interested in talking (or arguing) about it. Why not just go report it and wait for something to happen? Talking (or arguing) about it won't fix the bug.
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Old 04-17-2014, 01:22 PM   #20
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And yes, software bugs drive me crazy too. Yell at your computer a few times, then report the bug and wait for it to get fixed. If it doesn't get fixed after awhile, report it again and then keep waiting.

There's....nothing else to do.

Unless you want to start coding.
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Old 04-19-2014, 01:12 AM   #21
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Have you reported this bug yet?

Seems to me you are more interested in talking (or arguing) about it. Why not just go report it and wait for something to happen? Talking (or arguing) about it won't fix the bug.
Yes, it was reported, The original post has a link to the opened report. Did you care to read that? Nothing has been mentioned about fixing it though.
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