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Old 11-18-2014, 12:45 PM   #1
stevewisnoski
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Default midi routing using 2 instances of the aria player

Hello all: sometime ago, I posted a thread about midi routing using the aria player in reaper.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=145154
And thanks to the forum, I was able to use reaper to mix my compositions. I am importing midi files composed in finale into reaper, then use a single instance of the aria player, and load up the 16 channels with Garritan VSTI's. However, until I understood how to find my way, I put off the inevitable, which is using 2 instances of the aria player in reaper. My compositions, usually have more than 16 channels, and from what I can see, the leftover tracks after using the 16 channels in reaper, have been sent to track 1 of the aria player. Here's a photo of the routing matrix, that is a successful attempt according to Tod.
I used the method described in the other thread and got results.
And here's a photo of trying to use 2 instances of the aria player.
Again, I am lost. How can I get the slots in the 2nd aria player to reflect the channels past 16 of the 1st instance of the aria player ?
Thanks in advance.
Attached Images
File Type: png aria player success.png (28.8 KB, 240 views)
File Type: jpg 2 instance aria player reaper.jpg (65.0 KB, 255 views)
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:51 PM   #2
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High Steve,

Do you know how to create midi tracks independently for either of the two Aria players? I think it would really help you if you can understand how each midi track works in conjunction with any VSTi such as the Aria player.

Each Aria player will have it's own separate 16 midi channels that can be used with it.

In other words, you can have one midi track with the channel set to 1 going to Aria player #1 and at the same time have another midi track with the channel set to 1 going to Aria player #2.

Each Aria player has it's own set of midi channels as well as it's own set of audio outputs.

You just need to understand how to direct your various midi tracks to the two Aria players which is done with the tracks I/O routing.

Examine the I/O on the tracks that are working properly to see how they are routed. That should give you a good clue.
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Old 11-18-2014, 02:18 PM   #3
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Hi Tod, great to hear from you, thanks.
I tried to rebuild a recent project with 19 channels, using the method I used before, and compared it with the routing matrix you said was correct. I have been at this since yesterday, and gotta walk away for awhile. But, here's a photo of the recent effort to use 2 instances.
I will approach this later, a reread your response, right now I'm brain dead.
thank you !
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File Type: jpg 2 instance routing matrix unsuccessful.jpg (64.6 KB, 264 views)
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Old 11-18-2014, 02:41 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by stevewisnoski View Post
Hi Tod, great to hear from you, thanks.
I tried to rebuild a recent project with 19 channels, using the method I used before, and compared it with the routing matrix you said was correct. I have been at this since yesterday, and gotta walk away for awhile. But, here's a photo of the recent effort to use 2 instances.
I will approach this later, a reread your response, right now I'm brain dead.
thank you !
Steve, are you aware of Reaper's stash? The pictures you're posting are very hard to see because they've been reduced down for some reason. Here's a link to the stash, the only rules are, don't abuse it.

https://stash.reaper.fm/

At any rate, from what I can tell, it looks like there's only one major problem, it looks like you might have the outputs for the 2nd Aria player going back into that Aria player which is something you don't want to do, they should only be going to the MASTER.
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Old 11-18-2014, 04:28 PM   #5
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https://stash.reaper.fm/22339/2%20ins...successful.jpg
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Old 11-18-2014, 04:32 PM   #6
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The last post didn't have my words. I will think about your words, Tod. This is the last learning curve I have using the various software's I need to use. Thanks so much.
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Old 11-18-2014, 05:02 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by stevewisnoski View Post
That's much better Steve, however, what I mentioned above still stands.

Quote:
it looks like there's only one major problem, it looks like you might have the outputs for the 2nd Aria player going back into that Aria player which is something you don't want to do, they should only be going to the MASTER.
You have the 2nd Aria Player Outputs (Outputs 19, 20, & 21) in kind of a feedback loop that you don't want. I've circled the ones I'm talking about.

https://stash.reaper.fm/22341/Steve%2...Matrix%201.PNG

Last edited by Tod; 11-18-2014 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 11-18-2014, 07:44 PM   #8
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Awesome, Tod, will test tomorrow. I have tried several configurations with no luck yet. I'm sure I will get past the last goal with your help.
Buenos noches, kemosake.
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Old 11-20-2014, 02:04 PM   #9
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Hi Tod: I compared the successful tracks on the first aria player to the unsuccessful tracks on the 2nd aria player, and reread your post several times.
I got it to work correctly, but am still hazy a little on why, I want to post a couple of questions, and am attaching 2 screenshots, the routing window for track 18 (the 2nd aria player), and the routing matrix for the successful attempt, where all 19 channels are playing in their correct channels.
questions:
1- I assume I/O means input/output

I was able to correctly route by accessing the I/O on the channels on the MCP, then on each instrument sending 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 respectively. Anyway, I would appreciate your comment on the 2 screenshots.
Thanks.
https://stash.reaper.fm/22364/success...g%20matrix.png

https://stash.reaper.fm/22363/aria%20...%20receive.png
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewisnoski View Post
Hi Tod: I compared the successful tracks on the first aria player to the unsuccessful tracks on the 2nd aria player, and reread your post several times.
I got it to work correctly, but am still hazy a little on why, I want to post a couple of questions, and am attaching 2 screenshots, the routing window for track 18 (the 2nd aria player), and the routing matrix for the successful attempt, where all 19 channels are playing in their correct channels.
questions:
1- I assume I/O means input/output

I was able to correctly route by accessing the I/O on the channels on the MCP, then on each instrument sending 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 respectively. Anyway, I would appreciate your comment on the 2 screenshots.
Thanks.
https://stash.reaper.fm/22364/success...g%20matrix.png

https://stash.reaper.fm/22363/aria%20...%20receive.png
Hi Steve, first of all the Aria player VSTi tracks should not be going to the Master/parent. They should only be sending to it's corresponding output tracks and it should only be receiving the midi tracks you've assigned to it.

Other than the Master/parent everything looks pretty good.

There is one other thing though, your midi tracks I/O sends should have the Audio set up as Audio->Non. I'm not sure it will make a difference but if nothing else it's just good practice and a good thing to do.
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Old 11-20-2014, 04:14 PM   #11
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Thank you, Tod... is this what you mean by disabling the master/parent ? Also, does "I/O" mean input output ?

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Old 11-20-2014, 04:31 PM   #12
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I don't fear the REAPER, but the routing matrix really gives me the willies....

I/O is, indeed, Input/Output. Much routing can be achieved with just a track's I/O button.

Here's the easy way to enable/disable the Master/parent send:



HTH
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File Type: jpg Master_Parent.jpg (37.0 KB, 683 views)
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Old 11-20-2014, 04:49 PM   #13
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Right on, fex and tod, yeah, routing matrix is pretty intimidating, I will render this soon, and post it. I am getting all channels working, and finally have 2 instances of the aria player working as they should. I have been working up to this for almost a year...much thanks !
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Old 11-20-2014, 04:49 PM   #14
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Thank you, Tod... is this what you mean by disabling the master/parent ? Also, does "I/O" mean input output ?
Yes although, now you've disabled your 2nd Aria player outputs, they should be going to the Master/parent. It also looks like you've also un-assigned the 1st Aria player outputs too, basically disabling them.

Since you don't have any SubBusses or folders (which is another story for down the road, just disregard I said that ), then all the audio outputs of the two Aria players should be going to the Master/parent.

However, the 1st & 2nd Aria Player VSTi tracks should not be going to the Master/parent.
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Old 11-20-2014, 05:06 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by stevewisnoski View Post
Right on, fex and tod, yeah, routing matrix is pretty intimidating, I will render this soon, and post it. I am getting all channels working, and finally have 2 instances of the aria player working as they should. I have been working up to this for almost a year...much thanks !
Aah yes, good one fex.

The best way and only way that I'm aware of to assign your midi channels, is with the I/O of the midi tracks.

Go back and read my Post#2, I pretty much explained it all there.
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Old 11-20-2014, 06:45 PM   #16
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Yes although, now you've disabled your 2nd Aria player outputs, they should be going to the Master/parent. It also looks like you've also un-assigned the 1st Aria player outputs too, basically disabling them
Tod, are the outputs in the matrix the solid colored squares, of the striped squares ? The File plays back fine as is, I'm close to the Goal.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:36 PM   #17
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Tod, are the outputs in the matrix the solid colored squares, of the striped squares ? The File plays back fine as is, I'm close to the Goal.
Hey Steve, I'm not sure what you mean here. I think the only solid squares will be what is assigned to the Master. You can assign both audio and midi tracks to the Master but you never want the midi tracks assigned to the master.

You don't have any midi tracks assigned to the Master in you're last picture of the matrix. However, the Aria player outputs are not assigned to the Master either and they should be.

The first and best place to learn how to assign tracks is in the individual tracks which is what I was getting at in my 2nd post. However, once you get that under your belt, the matrix becomes a quick easy way to assign tracks. However, I think you still have to assign the midi tracks with their I/O routings.
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:54 PM   #18
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ok guys, I hope you're still with me. I used the I/O button on the TCP, and ticked "master/parent send" on both aria players, and this is what the routing matrix looks like, waddya think ?

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Old 11-21-2014, 08:40 AM   #19
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Based on what I understand to be your set up, this is how your matrix should look, or at least what I can see of it.

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Old 11-21-2014, 10:19 AM   #20
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somehow, I wound up with this matrix this morning. as I understood tod, only the aria players should be sent to the master/parent. Notice in this shot, the diagonal line now is going to the aria player down, and let me tick the master/parent solid colored squares on the aria player slots, both on the far left now. I am confused, as I though the midi tracks "should not" be sent to the parent. Regardless, with this configuration, the file sounds good, only one glitch, I can't get rea eq to work on channel 11, but it works on all other channels.

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Old 11-21-2014, 11:02 AM   #21
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Well, here's what I rendered using the matrix shown above. Reaper did a great job of honing those channels into something that sounds pretty realistic. I am going to try again with another 19 channel file, using 2 instances of the aria player, and see if I can retain the skillset. Again, my only goal in Reaper now, is get the channels set up correctly in reaper, use eq on each channel, and mix the compositions. I was able to use "tal III reverb" plug in as a verb bus.
Thanks again fellows.
https://soundcloud.com/steve-wisnosk...-gypsy-caravan
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Old 11-21-2014, 11:58 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewisnoski View Post
somehow, I wound up with this matrix this morning. as I understood tod, only the aria players should be sent to the master/parent. Notice in this shot, the diagonal line now is going to the aria player down, and let me tick the master/parent solid colored squares on the aria player slots, both on the far left now. I am confused, as I though the midi tracks "should not" be sent to the parent. Regardless, with this configuration, the file sounds good, only one glitch, I can't get rea eq to work on channel 11, but it works on all other channels.
Yes, your project will work the way you have it set up, however, you're not using your Aria player outputs at all, except they are routed to the reverb, so I guess that's where you're getting your reverb.

It looks to me like tracks 2 thru 17 are the audio outputs for Aria player #1 and tracks 19, 20, and 21 are the audio outputs for Aria player #2. If that's the case, then you're not really using your outputs to there best advantage. In other words, FX will do nothing and have no affect except on the reverb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewisnoski View Post
Well, here's what I rendered using the matrix shown above. Reaper did a great job of honing those channels into something that sounds pretty realistic. I am going to try again with another 19 channel file, using 2 instances of the aria player, and see if I can retain the skillset. Again, my only goal in Reaper now, is get the channels set up correctly in reaper, use eq on each channel, and mix the compositions. I was able to use "tal III reverb" plug in as a verb bus.
Thanks again fellows.
https://soundcloud.com/steve-wisnosk...-gypsy-caravan
That doesn't sound too bad Steve, heh heh, I can tell you're having fun.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:25 PM   #23
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Yes, your project will work the way you have it set up, however, you're not using your Aria player outputs at all, except they are routed to the reverb, so I guess that's where you're getting your reverb.

It looks to me like tracks 2 thru 17 are the audio outputs for Aria player #1 and tracks 19, 20, and 21 are the audio outputs for Aria player #2.
ok, Tod. So, I should make all the squares a solid color on the far left, yes ? 2-17, and 19-21. Once you approve, I can take a screenshot, and use it as a model as a successful routing matrix, then I will understand.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:39 PM   #24
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ok, Tod. So, I should make all the squares a solid color on the far left, yes ? 2-17, and 19-21. Once you approve, I can take a screenshot, and use it as a model as a successful routing matrix, then I will understand.
Yes, and be sure and uncheck the Aria players, otherwise you'll be sending the audio to the Master twice.

Incidentally, that diagonal line in the Matrix is just a separator for the Source and the Destination.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:43 PM   #25
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:52 PM   #26
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Like this, I unchecked the aria sends to the master, the file on my end sounds beyond my expectations. I cannot thank you enough, all youse guys and gals !

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Old 11-21-2014, 02:22 PM   #27
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Instead of mucking with all the routings, can't you just place the VSTi on a folder track, and have all the MIDI tracks that you want to that VSTi reside inside said folder track?

In other words, VSTi as Parent (folder) track and 16 MIDI tracks as Children (tracks inside folder).
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Old 11-21-2014, 03:22 PM   #28
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Like this, I unchecked the aria sends to the master, the file on my end sounds beyond my expectations. I cannot thank you enough, all youse guys and gals !
That looks pretty good Steve.

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Instead of mucking with all the routings, can't you just place the VSTi on a folder track, and have all the MIDI tracks that you want to that VSTi reside inside said folder track?

In other words, VSTi as Parent (folder) track and 16 MIDI tracks as Children (tracks inside folder).
No you can't use the VSTi track as the parent track from what I understand. However, there are other ways to use folders to do this but personally I don't use them because I want total control of everything.
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Old 11-21-2014, 03:53 PM   #29
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You're the best, Tod. And thanks for the comment, Insub. Now I have a screenshot, and greater understanding of midi within reaper, I have tried to use 2 instances since August. When I started trying to use the aria player in reaper, I found little information on it on the internet. Now, there's a good record of the process. Have a great holiday all !
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Old 12-01-2014, 02:50 PM   #30
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Default Please Tod, take a look

I have been looking at this all day. I am trying to render another file using 2 instances of the aria player, There are 18 total channels, and I cannot get the 2nd aria player to work. I think a glance would do it. There is only 2 instruments on the 2nd player, string ensemble, and bassoon. Thank you.

Last edited by stevewisnoski; 12-01-2014 at 03:00 PM. Reason: fucked up
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:24 PM   #31
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Default all 18 channels not showing on track manager

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Old 12-01-2014, 04:27 PM   #32
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I hate to start all over again, the last one worked. This, I noticed for some reason track 18, the basses, are the last listed on the tcp matrix, and doesn't list the full strings and bassoon, but they are listed on track 35 and 36. The tracks appear in the track control panel.
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:40 PM   #33
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I started again, and rebuilt the project in reaper, and Same deal, no strings and bassoon in the track matrix, I am wondering by deleting the 3rd organ stave, and making the bass and treble harp clefs on the same channel corrupted the file. Again, the last 2 tracks show on the tcp, but not in the track manager, as listed above.
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:41 PM   #34
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I hate to start all over again, the last one worked. This, I noticed for some reason track 18, the basses, are the last listed on the tcp matrix, and doesn't list the full strings and bassoon, but they are listed on track 35 and 36. The tracks appear in the track control panel.
Hi Steve, the track manager is where you determine where all the tracks go, the TCP or the MPC. Where the tracks go is totally up to you.

You've got the ARIA Player and Aria 2 in both the TCP and the MCP. I'm not sure what the Aria 2 is but there's no reason to have the ARIA Player in the TCP, I'd put it in the MCP where all the outputs are.

As far as tracks 35 and 36, they look like midi tracks and I'd put them in just the TCP.

All you have to do is "tick" the little dots or squares to make them appear or not appear.
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Old 12-01-2014, 06:45 PM   #35
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Thank you, Tod. I Need to think this over, but I don't think the problem is cut and dried. Notice aria player, and aria player 2 are the first 2 tracks, and, starting with the percussion track, ends at track 18. Track 19 to 36 is the 18 tracks, and I cannot for the life of me get them to play. In other words, the first list of instruments is 16, and the second list is 18. I appreciate you're taking the time to read this, and will look with new eyes tomorrow, I was afraid by changing some channels in finale before converting into midi, had corrupted the file somehow. And I put a lot of work into the file this week expressly for the purpose of honing the file in reaper.
Again, my thanks.
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:31 PM   #36
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[QUOTE=Tod;1437131]Hi Steve, the track manager is where you determine where all the tracks go, the TCP or the MPC. Where the tracks go is totally up to you.

You've got the ARIA Player and Aria 2 in both the TCP and the MCP. I'm not sure what the Aria 2 is but there's no reason to have the ARIA Player in the TCP, I'd put it in the MCP where all the outputs are.

As far as tracks 35 and 36, they look like midi tracks and I'd put them in just the TCP.

QUOTE]

hello, and I hope you're still with me Tod. I will make this as simple as I can.
I have had 3 successful attempts at using 2 instances of the aria player, using the method with the film animation I posted in "using a single instance of the aria player in reaper".
On each successful occasion, I would load the first aria player with the correct instruments for the channel, and name them, on that particular channel. Next, I would drag the midi file from media explorer to the tcp, under the last channel listed. Then, I would rename the new tracks something else in the track manager. Then, hide the audio tracks from the tcp, and hide the midi tracks from the mcp.
On this attempt, when I dragged the midi file from media explorer into the tcp, the track manager did not list the last 2 channels, so I was unable to "rename" those tracks, as shown in the image of the track manager(the last image posted). The last 2 midi channels, appear in the tcp, but I have been unable to get them to play. In the track manager image, tracks 3-18, are 16 tracks, tracks 19-36 shows all 18 channels. The successful attempts, show all the "old" tracks, and, the "new" renamed tracks.
I have been trying to figure out why, on this occasion, the track manager does not appear as it has, with all "old" tracks and "new" tracks.
This is important to me, because writing compositions, as you know, is very time consuming,(as well as responding to me), and I must be absolutely sure I can reproduce the same results, if I try to use "2 instances of the aria player in reaper" again.
I hope youse guys are well. If I can't get it to happen, I'll render a file with the 16 channels, without the string ensemble (track35), or bassoon (track36)
I hope you read this, and I hope it makes sense.
again, Thanks.
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Old 12-02-2014, 05:43 PM   #37
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[QUOTE=stevewisnoski;1437561]
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi Steve, the track manager is where you determine where all the tracks go, the TCP or the MPC. Where the tracks go is totally up to you.

You've got the ARIA Player and Aria 2 in both the TCP and the MCP. I'm not sure what the Aria 2 is but there's no reason to have the ARIA Player in the TCP, I'd put it in the MCP where all the outputs are.

As far as tracks 35 and 36, they look like midi tracks and I'd put them in just the TCP.

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hello, and I hope you're still with me Tod. I will make this as simple as I can.
Hi Steve, I'm still here.

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I have had 3 successful attempts at using 2 instances of the aria player, using the method with the film animation I posted in "using a single instance of the aria player in reaper".

On each successful occasion, I would load the first aria player with the correct instruments for the channel, and name them, on that particular channel. Next, I would drag the midi file from media explorer to the tcp, under the last channel listed. Then, I would rename the new tracks something else in the track manager. Then, hide the audio tracks from the tcp, and hide the midi tracks from the mcp.
You're making this way too hard Steve. there are basically three types of tracks that we are dealing with here. And keep in mind, what I tell you here is the way I do it. There are other ways to do this but since you are so confused, let's just go with the way I do it.

1. Midi Tracks
2. VSTi Tracks (like Aria Player)
3. VSTi Audio Output Tracks.

For me, the Midi Tracks not only go in the TCP but also go on top in the Track Manager. That's all Midi tracks. So all the Midi Tracks will have track numbers smaller than any of the VSTi tracks or their outputs.

All VSTi Tracks along with their Audio Output Tracks go in the MCP with the VSTi Track ahead of the Output Tracks. If you have 2 VSTi tracks (2 Aria Players), then the 1st Aria Player and it's outputs are first in the MPC and then come the 2nd Aria Player and it's outputs.

When you drag or import a midi file to it's own track, make sure it ends up above any of the VSTi tracks and their outputs, and make them so they are only in the TCP, because they are midi tracks. The reason for having the Midi tracks in the TCP is because then they show up in the Arrange area for selecting and editing. The VSTi and it's outputs will have nothing in the Arrange Area so why put them there.

You just need to get your head wrapped around this and it will become so easy.
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Old 12-02-2014, 07:19 PM   #38
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My friend, thank you. I'll read your post tomorrow a few times, I really need to feel confident in using more than 16 tracks in reaper
Happy holidays
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:43 PM   #39
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Hi Tod ! For some reason, this file didn't work out with the 2 instances, then I thought, why not just do what I did, so, I got rid of the problem aria player 2, and assigned an aria player to each of the remaining 2 channels, 3 aria players total. I had looked at the routing matrix so much, and reread everything I had forgotten the other path. This occurred to me about 3 am. It was frustrating, because the 2 channels (string ensemble, and bassoon) played important roles in the composition. I was able to use reaeq on each channel, a verb bus (tal III verb),readelay on the French horn, and even a synth ("Angelina" big tick audio) on the trombone section. It sounds very good, quality wise, compared to the first finale audio export in March. I learned a lot, and again, can't thank you enough for hanging in with me. I think I know what to look out for in the future. Happy Holidays.
https://soundcloud.com/steve-wisnoski/west-chinatown-2
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:34 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewisnoski View Post
Hi Tod ! For some reason, this file didn't work out with the 2 instances, then I thought, why not just do what I did, so, I got rid of the problem aria player 2, and assigned an aria player to each of the remaining 2 channels, 3 aria players total. I had looked at the routing matrix so much, and reread everything I had forgotten the other path. This occurred to me about 3 am. It was frustrating, because the 2 channels (string ensemble, and bassoon) played important roles in the composition. I was able to use reaeq on each channel, a verb bus (tal III verb),readelay on the French horn, and even a synth ("Angelina" big tick audio) on the trombone section. It sounds very good, quality wise, compared to the first finale audio export in March. I learned a lot, and again, can't thank you enough for hanging in with me. I think I know what to look out for in the future. Happy Holidays.
https://soundcloud.com/steve-wisnoski/west-chinatown-2
Heh heh, well your sound track is certainly interesting. A very Oriental approach and then advance to multiple orchestration. You do have a composers mind Steve.

So are you saying you couldn't get just two Aria players to work?
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