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Old 01-03-2016, 03:49 AM   #1
studer58
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Default Source destination editing and crossfade editor

Since 2007 (!!).... many requests (regularly) for a 4 point/Source-Destination type of editor similar to that provided by Sequoia or Pyramix, and a meaningful (non-auto) crossfade to support this. Some workarounds have emerged, but nothing which has the speed and convenience of these competing platforms

Some supporting background:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=122267

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=116213

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=111421
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Old 01-04-2016, 11:13 PM   #2
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Default Hear, hear!

YES!!!!!!!!!!

Put it in the next version, please!

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Old 01-17-2016, 11:00 PM   #3
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Yes!! Absolutely! Please please consider it for the next version.
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Old 01-18-2016, 07:20 AM   #4
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Not enough folks wanted this.

Would you like to tell us why you could use it ?
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Old 01-27-2016, 04:54 AM   #5
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Source Destination editing vastly speeds up the substitution of recorded material in classical music and broadcast editing. Classical musicians do not (usually) play to click tracks, and do not do punch-in recording. Because of this, multiple takes of the same material will generally not be of exactly the same length. Source/destination provides another way of assembling the recorded material into a final product.

Here is a simple example. A live orchestra performance goes well, but in measures 200-204 the violas miss an entrance. Fortunately, they play the passage correctly the following evening, but the conductor prefers the first performance overall. Therefore, the task is to replace measures 200-204 from the first performance with the same measures from the following night. Because the replacement material is not of exactly the same length, it can't be inserted without moving things around. One can do this edit in Reaper, but it requires moving material after measure 204 out of the way, attaching the replacement material, and then reattaching the remainder of the original performance. This is not a very efficient way to work when there may be hundreds of such edits in a typical classical CD project.

Here's how the same job is done using source/destination editing in Sequoia. Designate all tracks of the first performance as destination tracks. Set the destination in-point marker at the beginning of measure 200. Set the destination out-point at the end of measure 204. Designate all tracks of the second performance as source tracks. Set source in-point and out-point markers. Press the four-point cut button. The material between the destination markers is replaced by the material between the source markers. (This is done using default cross-fades, which may be adjusted later using the Sequoia cross-fade editor.) It doesn't matter that the replacement material is of a different length. An integrated Advanced Crossfade Editor allows the edits to be completed quickly and with extreme accuracy.

The way Sequoia does it is outlined here: http://www.magix-audio.com/us/sequoi...s/#productMenu and demonstated in this short video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh-j...L17arTP01mT9NJ

Last edited by studer58; 01-27-2016 at 05:27 AM. Reason: add video link
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Old 01-29-2016, 05:20 PM   #6
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sorry, i just found this topic...i posted something in another thread...i supporting this request too and about the crossfade editor, that's what i wrote in the other thread
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Old 08-29-2017, 06:27 PM   #7
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I would love to use Source Destination feature. It has been missing from my life for so long, but this will make things so much better for me. On Windows, Pyramix and Sequoia have this feature. On Mac, there are none besides some obsolete solutions.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:19 PM   #8
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Agreed. See my similar thread asking for more mastering focused options from REAPER.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=195032

We don't need another "do it with a script" answer. Something native and user friendly is the way to go.

Mac options are much fewer than PC. A modern, great cross-platform option such as REAPER would be very popular.

REAPER is great at many things, but not quite there in this department.

I've found that explaining these things to people that don't need or understand it is very hard.
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:18 AM   #9
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Would also love this to be added to Reaper!
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:31 AM   #10
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I want this function too.
Please implement this!!

Is there something new?
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Old 01-19-2018, 01:42 PM   #11
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I'm right before buying Pyramix for exactly this feature. So it would be a perfect moment to announce a new crossfade editor an source/destination editing
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:18 AM   #12
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We outlined a lot of ways to pull this off while respecting Reaper methods.

The fade editor itself is just about all they've done so far.

Many times, I could have used a second arrangement view with 4-point editing commands, but there's no dialogue between Cockos and the userbase on this issue. It's one of those things that don't happen, until it does(or may do).

If you depend on a native solution for 4-point editing for any commercial, there's no evidence to indicate Cockos will look in to it. You cannot rely on Cockos in this way. They do urgent fixes quickly, but bigger features look like they're not planned all that much. You can never know when they'll try, and actually they might fail in secret for a long time until they show anything to us.

Move on for now.
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:54 AM   #13
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Default Source destination editing system

I've developed a new complete source-destination editing extension to Reaper and am beta testing now. It basically gives you all the functionality of a Pyramix style system, but faster and easier.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:32 AM   #14
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Exciting news. I wait eagerly to check it out

Last edited by Gass n Klang; 03-11-2019 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cohler View Post
I've developed a new complete source-destination editing extension to Reaper and am beta testing now. It basically gives you all the functionality of a Pyramix style system, but faster and easier.
Great. This is a case where I'd probably be OK with using a 3rd party script.

I love scripts for getting things done but I have an unwritten rule about using 3rd party scripts to alter the foundation of REAPER so much that a totally stock version of REAPER couldn't open it, I won't use it.

I need to be 100% sure that for as long as REAPER is officially developed, and some years beyond, that I can simply open a session can get back what originally left off with.
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Old 03-12-2019, 04:39 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cohler View Post
I've developed a new complete source-destination editing extension to Reaper and am beta testing now. It basically gives you all the functionality of a Pyramix style system, but faster and easier.
Great news and I look forward to this as well. I've been using the earlier script described at http://urosbaric.com/reaper-classica...-point-editing, which still works just fine, but something even more efficient would be welcome.

I agree that having something built into Reaper would be ideal; I know what it's like to become dependent on a plugin or external script that is eventually abandoned by its developer. But this is such a useful feature that I don't mind taking the risk for the benefits it provides.

I don't think it's a feature most Reaper users need (or know they could benefit from); it's especially useful in classical music editing although I use it all the time for things like voiceovers, for example. I also do a lot of work on video and film, where three- and four-point editing are essential features so it's a natural desire to have it available for audio too. And Reaper is already a very NLE-like DAW in other respects (e.g., with slip editing, ripple editing, etc.)

S-D editing can be useful in cases where you have multiple takes that were not performed to a click track and where phrases vary in length. It's not a big deal when you just have a few edits to make but when you have a few hundred S-D editing is very efficient.

Last edited by bjohn; 03-12-2019 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 04-02-2019, 12:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cohler View Post
I've developed a new complete source-destination editing extension to Reaper and am beta testing now. It basically gives you all the functionality of a Pyramix style system, but faster and easier.
any progress here?
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Old 04-03-2019, 02:46 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang View Post
any progress here?
+1 from us too
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Old 04-17-2019, 01:36 PM   #19
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subscribed and +1
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:53 PM   #20
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I also strongly support this request! SD-Editing is heavily relied on in "classical" audio production and I'd love to use Reaper for those projects as well!
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Old 07-13-2019, 07:22 AM   #21
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I also agree that it would be a perfect addition to Reaper: currently source/destination editing is the only missing feature that obliges me to go to another DAW when I have to edit classical music (but not only classical). The scripts provided by Pelleke in 2011 are really good, but the workflow is still not that fluid (it cannot be more with scripts).
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Old 11-28-2019, 07:16 PM   #22
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Default Please develop S/D editing natively in Reaper

I, too, would love to see a native ability to have source-destination editing in Reaper. I've used the scripts for a long while now, but I would love something like what Pyramix or Sequoia can do. It is absolutely essential for classical music editing and producing. Thank you!
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Old 11-29-2019, 08:34 PM   #23
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Again, yes! Baked in source-destination plus professional crossfade editor would be fantastic. Currently using Pyramix for my serious classical needs in the knowledge that my classical helper scripts for Reaper work for creating the edits but are quite useless without a visual crossfade editor a la Sequoia/Pyramix to back it up. The key is in the fine editing possible after making the rough cuts.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:02 AM   #24
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Default Source-Destination Classical Music Editing in Reaper

I have built a TOTAL and COMPLETE system for doing Classical Music editing (or really any multi-track acoustic music editing) in Reaper. This includes thousands of lines of code and hundreds of functions, NOT one or two simple scripts.

Anyone interested in being a beta tester, please contact me.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:04 PM   #25
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Again, per my other post, please do share the beta with the community or at least some screenshots and workflow descriptions. Unless there is a crossfade editor your "total" and "complete" system for classical audio will still be lacking.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:20 AM   #26
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So, er....did S-D Editing make it into Reaper 6.0 as a Big New Feature ?

Ok....maybe 7.0 then, hey !

See you back here again then in Aug 2022....?
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:10 AM   #27
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OK I'll bite.

Cohler, I'm interested in looking at your system.

FYI I don't do Classical Music editing. I work in broadcast, mainly speech. But the tool I "grew up with" (in DAW terms, anyway - I really grew up with 1/4" tape!!) is SADiE, which is very highly regarded both for classical editing and for speech work, with some of its workflows being great for both even though they're so different conceptually.

If you think I'm not a good candidate for testing your system, fair enough, but I'd be interested in seeing whether any of your solution solves deficiencies in Reaper that I've been hoping to fix.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:14 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
So, er....did S-D Editing make it into Reaper 6.0 as a Big New Feature ?

Ok....maybe 7.0 then, hey !

See you back here again then in Aug 2022....?
I think it is time to move on I also brought up S-D editing with the Ardour/Mixbus folks but there's no hurry to implement it. It is on their to-do list but it feels like it might be continually bumped by other mainline feature requests. It's a pity because Ardour/Mixbus is one heck of a DAW (and great for mastering). Actually, the default short fades and transparent waveforms when dragging are amazing for lining up waveforms when the edit list is relatively small. For reaper we are simply missing a Sequoia-style crossfade editor if you count the scripting adequate for actual cutting. Yes, it would be nice to have proper baked-in in/out markers for the source-destination stuff but we get by...

The truth is, I've been using Pyramix for anything professional just because, like Sequoia, it is so darn efficient. There's hardly an edit goes by without wanting to visually micro-adjust the waveforms. Pyramix's SRC is second-to-none (well, ok, perhaps Saracon but I personally put them as equals) and frankly it looks good for business given all the other classical engineers out there seem to be using either Pyramix or Sequoia at this point. I was lucky to jump on the academic price train but unsure about whether my ~$200 annual maintenance contract is reduced rate or standard. It feels like a good deal.

For everything else, I've fallen in love with Cakewalk by Bandlab having been a Sonar Platinum user off and on over the years. Maybe Bandlab would be open to the suggestions for S-D editing? Studio One is also a possibility...

So, the state of play remains the same. For baked-in options we have Pyramix , Sequoia or Sadie. For the best subtitute I would say Ardour or Mixbus at this point in time given the editing, multi-encoder exporting, CD wav/cue, metadata etc. Verion 6 of both is on the horizon with full latency compensation throughout the whole system. I should give an honorable mention to Studio One's Project enivironment which acts like an unfussy Wavelab or, indeed, Wavelab itself with quasi source-destination via the montage window.
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Old 12-09-2019, 03:04 PM   #29
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Yes, of course, there is a crossfade editor. Contact me if you are interested in beta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
Again, per my other post, please do share the beta with the community or at least some screenshots and workflow descriptions. Unless there is a crossfade editor your "total" and "complete" system for classical audio will still be lacking.
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Old 12-09-2019, 03:05 PM   #30
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I've fixed hundreds of deficiencies and bugs in Reper.

If you are interested in being a beta tester, contact me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
OK I'll bite.

Cohler, I'm interested in looking at your system.

FYI I don't do Classical Music editing. I work in broadcast, mainly speech. But the tool I "grew up with" (in DAW terms, anyway - I really grew up with 1/4" tape!!) is SADiE, which is very highly regarded both for classical editing and for speech work, with some of its workflows being great for both even though they're so different conceptually.

If you think I'm not a good candidate for testing your system, fair enough, but I'd be interested in seeing whether any of your solution solves deficiencies in Reaper that I've been hoping to fix.
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Old 12-09-2019, 03:06 PM   #31
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If you are interesting in beta testing my new system, contact me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkmedia View Post
I, too, would love to see a native ability to have source-destination editing in Reaper. I've used the scripts for a long while now, but I would love something like what Pyramix or Sequoia can do. It is absolutely essential for classical music editing and producing. Thank you!
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Old 12-09-2019, 03:07 PM   #32
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If you are interested in beta testing, contact me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang View Post
any progress here?
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Old 12-09-2019, 03:07 PM   #33
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I have built a complete system on Reaper for true, better-than-Pyramix, source-destination editing.

If you would like to be a beta tester, write to me on email.
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Old 12-10-2019, 04:14 AM   #34
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I've used Sequoia and Pyramix since 2005 for 100s of classical projects and without 4 point editing I would have offed myself after the first concert.

There is simply nothing as powerful as those two in my experience (I hate Sadie, don't bother lol) so I strongly have doubts about your "complete system". Not because it's impossible for a contender to come along and oust Pyramix but because of how you're presenting it here.

You've created a REAPER based system that rivals and beats Sequoia and Pyramix for crossfades and 4point editings but this is how you launch the "beta"? Swingannamiss.

Good luck though.
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Old 01-22-2020, 04:21 PM   #35
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Default Finally! True Source-Destination Editing and Crossfade Editor in Reaper!!

Announcing Cohler Classical, which is now at beta test version 1.16. Looking for one or two more interested beta testers...

Cohler Classical is a new application built on Reaper and designed from the ground up exclusively for multitrack track-group editing, as is used in classical music, for example. Features include:
  • Source-Destination multi-track track-group editing;
  • Point-click-drag crossfade editor;
  • Automatic track and item grouping;
  • Track-group and project marker system;
  • Redesigned and optimized menu and keyboard shortcut system;
  • More than 350 new functions;
  • Elimination of numerous Reaper limitations, incorrect implementations, and bugs;
  • Markers and automation stick to audio;
  • Playback rate change ripples audio/markers/automation;
  • Multi-track track-group import/export functionality;
  • CUE/WAV/CDT Export for mastering;
  • Multi-track track-group consolidation;
  • Suite of automation functions for detailed balancing;
  • And much more!
Everything you need to do in multitrack track-group editing is just one keystroke or click away with Cohler Classical.

Check out the Quick Start Guide for more details. I will also post a few short demonstration videos soon.

If you are interested in joining our beta test team, contact me directly at cohler@jonathancohler.com. We will take two or three more beta testers.
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Old 01-26-2020, 07:41 AM   #36
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Default Multitrack track-group, source-destination, classical editing!

Introducing...
Cohler Classical


Cohler Classical is a new environment built on Reaper and designed from the ground up exclusively for multitrack track-group editing, as is used in classical music, for example. For anyone who has used Pyramix, Sonic Solutions, Pro-Tools, or Sequoia, and is looking for a faster, customized, and much less expensive option, Cohler Classical is the answer.

Cohler Classical adds 350+ new functions and so much more to Reaper including:
  • Source-Destination multi-track track-group editing;
  • Point-click-drag crossfade editor;
  • Automatic track and item grouping;
  • Track-group and project marker system;
  • Optimized custom menus and shortcuts;
  • Fixed many Reaper bugs and limitations;
  • Markers and automation stick to audio (track-group ripple);
  • Playback rate change ripples audio/markers/automation;
  • Multi-track track-group import/export functionality;
  • Import multitrack audio in one click;
  • Export CUE/WAV/CDT for mastering in one click;
  • Multi-track track-group consolidation;
  • Suite of automation functions for detailed balancing;
  • And much more!
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Old 01-26-2020, 07:55 AM   #37
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Cool.
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Old 01-26-2020, 09:45 AM   #38
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Wow that looks amazing! Great job. I've got some questions:

1) So you can have more than 9 takes of course, but you organize them with these 9 source tracks right? How do we keep track of our takes? In everyday praxis I make some notes on my sheet about which take was good etc. How should we spread our lets say 50 takes to these 9 tracks? It could be really useful to have some kind of window that shows us a big large take number of the selected take. Having a different color (that is also transmitted to the destination track items) per take could be useful as well
2) Is it possible to temporarily unlink the groups so you can do crossfades based on individual tracks? In my experience this is sometimes helpful.
3) So in praxis we'd use this reaper installation as a second installation for classical editing, right?
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Old 01-26-2020, 11:11 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang View Post
Wow that looks amazing! Great job. I've got some questions:

1) So you can have more than 9 takes of course, but you organize them with these 9 source tracks right? How do we keep track of our takes? In everyday praxis I make some notes on my sheet about which take was good etc. How should we spread our lets say 50 takes to these 9 tracks? It could be really useful to have some kind of window that shows us a big large take number of the selected take. Having a different color (that is also transmitted to the destination track items) per take could be useful as well
2) Is it possible to temporarily unlink the groups so you can do crossfades based on individual tracks? In my experience this is sometimes helpful.
3) So in praxis we'd use this reaper installation as a second installation for classical editing, right?
1. There are 9 sources and a destination. In real life recording situations, you RARELY have more than 10 takes of any one section, but if you do, you can just use some horizontal layout and markers. No need to take any notes or have log sheets. It takes 5 minutes to layout say 40 takes from a session on 10 minutes of music so that you can visually see everything. With single clicks you can bounce back and forth to audition. The colors go with the track groups not with the individual takes. You can have many takes on a track group. Indeed, you always do.

2. It is possible to unlink groups, but you really DONT want to do that for numerous reasons, the least of which is that it will SOUND BAD.

3. Not a second installation. It's just a configuration file. Two seconds to load.
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Old 01-27-2020, 11:22 AM   #40
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Default Multitrack Track-Group Source-Destination 2, 3 and 4-point edits on Cohler Classical

Introducing...
Cohler Classical
  • See videos below for intro to Cohler Classical, and how-to's on 2, 3, and 4-point edits
  • READ the Quick Start Guide for more details.
  • CONTACT info@cohlerclassical.com with any questions, or if you would like to join our beta test team.








Cohler Classical is the only environment built on Reaper and designed from the ground up exclusively for multitrack track-group editing, as is used in classical music, for example. For anyone who has used Pyramix, Sonic Solutions, Pro-Tools, or Sequoia, and is looking for a faster, customized, and much less expensive option, Cohler Classical is the answer.

Cohler Classical adds 350+ new functions and so much more to Reaper including:
  • Source-Destination multi-track track-group editing;
  • Point-click-drag crossfade editor;
  • Automatic track and item grouping;
  • Track-group and project marker system;
  • Optimized custom menus and shortcuts;
  • Fixed many Reaper bugs and limitations;
  • Markers and automation stick to audio (track-group ripple);
  • Playback rate change ripples audio/markers/automation;
  • Multi-track track-group import/export functionality;
  • Import multitrack audio in one click;
  • Export CUE/WAV/CDT for mastering in one click;
  • Multi-track track-group consolidation;
  • Suite of automation functions for detailed balancing;
  • And much more!
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