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View Poll Results: How useful are subprojects to you and would you like these FRs added pretty soon?
Yes, most of the stuff here would be useful to me and I'd like to see a lot of it added pretty soon. 37 71.15%
Yes, some (or all) of the stuff but it can wait for other features first 9 17.31%
No, sub projects are not useful to me at all and shouldn't be worked on as a priority 6 11.54%
None of the above, left a post explaining why.. 0 0%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-19-2017, 06:18 AM   #81
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+ 1

Some very good ideas in here to make subprojects an even better feature.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:07 AM   #82
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Rendered items from regions of sub-projects, instead of just start and end, would be nice.

Along with beat (BPM) matching.

Last edited by Ozman; 07-19-2017 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 09-03-2017, 08:09 PM   #83
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+1

These features would be amazing!
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:30 AM   #84
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Bump.

Our cutscene localisation pipeline depends on subprojects now. Has saved us a huge amount of work.

We would welcome more development
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Old 09-16-2017, 08:29 AM   #85
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Please add me as a +1 on these feature requests.

For me, the most helpful of these might be the simplest to implement.

Master Project video playback in subprojects.
Master Project marker visibility in subprojects (if markers can be locked to H:M:S:F)

To explain my workflow. One episode or reel is a master project. Each cue is a subproject. Master project is always HMSF, subprojects are almost always bar/beat though sometimes I change for spotting. I'd like some markers to lock to HMSF.... those could be from the master project.

My subproject master channel is 64 channels. These are my stems. Those stem feed the master project where the 64 channel subproject renders get routed out into their stems channels.

This is by far the best film/tv workflow of any DAW. Automatic stem printing and drag and drop reuse of cue to be edited to new scenes.

*****Having the master project be the video master would save hours of work every week******

Please implement if it's simple.

Last edited by blumpy; 09-16-2017 at 08:31 AM. Reason: poor grammar
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Old 09-16-2017, 04:53 PM   #86
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Master Project video playback in subprojects.
Master Project marker visibility in subprojects (if markers can be locked to H:M:S:F)
Would absolutely love to see this in addition to having master project live audio routing to subprojects (without using an extra portable instance of Reaper and Reasio). I know someone wrote a JS plugin for this but having it built in would be extremely useful.

That way Video as well as dialogue/efx audio tracks could all be routed to Subprojects and not be effected by edits such as moving regions, etc.

Also, this would allow you to set up your video tracks once and not have to import into every new project and readjust sync, etc.
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Old 09-16-2017, 10:49 PM   #87
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Master Project video playback in subprojects.
Master Project marker visibility in subprojects (if markers can be locked to H:M:S:F)
Generally, "Live" (not pre-rendered) subproject would (should) provide synchronized playback and (optionally) edit cursors and supposedly mutually visible / synchronized markers, while any of the appropriate projects may hold audio, midi and/or video content.

But first of all "Live" subprojects would be really desirable feature.

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Old 09-19-2017, 03:26 PM   #88
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Default Route to tracks in other projects

It would be great to be able to route MIDI (and automation data) from a subproject to the master project.

This would allow me to create one master project with a dozen or so sample-heavy instrument tracks, and then quickly create subprojects for sketching out song sections.

Generally speaking, Reaper is super fast to open projects. Except for instantiating instruments. That's usually slow.

With MIDI-only and Audio-only tracks in the subproject, each subproject would be very quick to create/open.
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:07 AM   #89
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Ok, I found a way to route midi from subprojects to master project.

I used midipipe(http://www.subtlesoft.square7.net/MidiPipe.html) to create virtual inputs and outputs. Each pair is a single pipe connecting a virtual input to a virtual output:
  • virtual input 1
  • virtual output 1

I made 16 pairs of virtual inputs and outputs.

In my master project, I created 16 instruments. Each instrument gets its midi input from a different virtual output:
  • master track 1: piano: input virtual output 1
  • master track 2: moog lead: input virtual output 2
  • master track 3: strings: input virtual output 3
  • ... etc.

In my subproject, I created 16 tracks - each sends midi to a different virtual output
  • sub track 1: piano: output virtual input 1
  • sub track 2: moog lead: input virtual input 2
  • sub track 3: strings: input virtual input 3
  • ... etc.

The plan was that I could very quickly load or create a subproject from a template, and then have all processing take place in the master project.

If I were working on a pop song, I might have one sub project for the first verse, another for the first chorus, etc.

I was hoping that I could avoid rendering the subprojects entirely; I was hoping that playing back the master project would play back each subproject as necessary, in sync with the master project.

However, there are a couple of problems with this approach:
  1. performance is terrible (at least on Reaper 5.40). I have to have the setting Project tabs:run stopped background projects set to on. As soon as I do that, CPU usage goes through the roof.
  2. There doesn't seem to be a way to avoid rendering subprojects, and just play them in sync with the master project. Unless I'm missing something...

There are two reasons that I want to avoid the rendering phase. First of all, there's the delay while I wait for the project to render. I'm striving for a modular compositional workflow that allows for very fast context switching. Waiting for rendering interrupts my creative flow. The subprojects are only dealing with MIDI, so I figure that at least in theory they should be very lightweight.

Secondly, I use outboard MIDI gear (specifically a piano). It's not the best piano in the world, but I like it. And it avoids me having to load a humungous sampled piano in every project. But the problem with outboard MIDI gear is that its output doesn't render with the subproject. In order to hear the piano in the master track playback, I would have to manually record the piano's audio output on a track (in realtime) every time I make a change to the subproject. That makes it pretty much unusable.

I feel like the performance problem might be solved by only allowing the master project to run in the background while stopped.



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Old 10-16-2017, 11:17 AM   #90
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You obviously need the "Live" subproject feature (see above). (Project tabs:run stopped background projects does not help.)

Perhaps you could try rewiring multiple Reaper instances, instead.

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Old 10-16-2017, 08:49 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
You obviously need the "Live" subproject feature (see above). (Project tabs:run stopped background projects does not help.)
Yes, I think that's what I want!

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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Perhaps you could try rewiring multiple Reaper instances, instead.
That's a great idea! I didn't know I could have multiple reaper instances open at once. I'll try it out and see if it solves the performance issues.
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Old 10-16-2017, 09:57 PM   #92
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AFAIR from testing, the instance to be rewired is automatically opened.

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Old 11-04-2017, 09:54 PM   #93
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I've played around with Rewire a bit, and the performance is as bad as it was when I was routing midi from one tab to another in the same project. If I have three tracks with VSTis enabled in the Rewire slave, then CPU load just gets too high and I get clicks and pops. With the same VSTis in a single project the CPU is much lower.

The other limitation appears to be that as far as I can tell, there is only one Rewire bus available, so only 16 MIDI channels and 32 audio channels are available.

I'm going to get a trial version of Vienna Ensemble Pro and see if that performs better.
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Old 11-05-2017, 01:06 AM   #94
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I'm going to get a trial version of Vienna Ensemble Pro and see if that performs better.
Let us know what you find...
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Old 11-11-2017, 03:07 AM   #95
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chiming in to say how helpful it would be for a "save as" / "save new version" of a subproject to be automatically updated in the master project
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Old 11-13-2017, 05:50 PM   #96
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chiming in to say how helpful it would be for a "save as" / "save new version" of a subproject to be automatically updated in the master project
Indeed this would be good. I'm hoping it's time for around too soon for the devs in subprojects.

As for saving. You kind of can if you right click a subproject item and select to open a copy in editor as a new take (forget the exact menu wording sorry.)

This actually creates a new version of the subproject with the only downside of giving it a rough name and also I think it forces a copy of the whole subproject into the master project. Might be wrong on that last bit hopefully.
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:16 AM   #97
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I've finally got Reaper working with Vienna Ensemble Pro (VEP). It took me a while because Reaper's routing system is both flexible and ... how shall I put this ... unforgiving?

But now I have a template of MIDI tracks and audio returns, all routed properly into a Vienna Ensemble Server hosting a dozen or so instruments. I've exported the tracks as a track template, so now all I have to do is open a new project and choose "Insert track from template" and I have a dozen instruments all ready to go - practically instantly. And the CPU usage and latency are way better than with Reaper rewiring to Reaper. Awesome.

Of course, saving a subproject takes a long time, because Reaper has to render the subproject. (I'm hoping that eventually Reaper will have "live subprojects", and I will be able to skip this step.)

However, now I've discovered a bit of a show-stopper: VEP really doesn't like having two Reaper subprojects open and pointing to the same VEP server instance at the same time.

The first subproject opens fine. The second subproject opens, but none of the VEP plugins produce sound. Each VEP plugin says "NOT CONNECTED (instance busy)". The only workarounds appear to be either to close the first subproject, or to disconnect each VEP plugin in the first subproject. Bleah.

This kind of defeats my original goal (which was to be able open multiple subprojects quickly, with each subproject pointing to the same set of virtual instruments).
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Old 11-25-2017, 05:14 PM   #98
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I've found that I can save presets for each "state" of a VEP plugin, i.e. whether it is connected or not to its server instance. For example, I might have the following presets:

* connect to piano/keys instance
* connect to strings instance
* disconnected

According to this thread, I can automate switching between presets:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=122697

So, I'm pretty sure that the only way around this is to put automation on the VEP instance tracks to:

* enable VEP instance at start of subproject
* disable VEP instance at end of subproject

That would be an acceptable workaround for rendered subprojects. A bit fiddly, but workable.

However it will never really work for "live subprojects", because I think a project's subprojects will always overlap a bit. So the end of the first subproject will happen after the beginning of the second subproject. And so the automation to enable the second subproject will happen before the automation to disable the first subproject happens.

I may go down this work and try to document it, but honestly at this point, I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle with this approach.

I'm sorry that my posts are getting increasingly off topic, but I've been chasing the modular composition workflow for a long time, and it seems like Reaper's subprojects really could work for this. But honestly, I think for it to work well, Reaper really needs something like Digital Performer's V-Rack feature.

So, on that note, I'm going to go play around with the demo of Digital Performer for a while and see how that goes
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Old 11-25-2017, 05:59 PM   #99
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Modular composition workflow? Sounds good.

Do you have any specs which can describe this in detail? Then we could better tell how it could be possible with Reaper or not. Not sure what you are looking for exactly? And why you have to use subprojects to reach this goal? If you want we can start a spec-game here.

Not an expert here, but as Reaper allows anything you can imagine, it should be possible, the only remaining question is what and how. Now it is your turn to tell in detail about the what.
-how many tracks you need? 10,100,1000,10000
-why a normal reaper project is not good enough? reaper allows serial,parallel data and time coding horizontally,vertically.
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Old 11-25-2017, 08:36 PM   #100
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Modular composition workflow? Sounds good.
Do you have any specs which can describe this in detail? Then we could better tell how it could be possible with Reaper or not.
Ok, as a high-level "user story", I guess what I'd like to do is to be able to sketch out sections of a musical piece very quickly and then assemble these sections into a larger composition. Each section might have a different tempo and time signature.

In a typical pop piece, there might be three sections: "verse", "chorus", "bridge". But in a more complex piece there would be many more sections.

I'd like to be able to create a new section very quickly, and to move very quickly from the overview of the piece into one of the the subsections very quickly.

I'd like to be able to reorder the subsections very quickly, and to duplicate them. I'd like for subsections to be able to overlap. Ideally, I'd also like to be able to have several subsections play at the same time.

I'd also like to be able to temporarily remove sections and then add them back again later (so they're never really permanently gone from the project - just disabled).

I'd like to be able to insert a section into the middle of the project in an arbitrary time signature or tempo and not have it affect the sections that follow it.

I'd like each subproject to be able to use sample-heavy instruments that could take several minutes to load (my test case has about 10 instruments, and takes about 3-4 minutes to load on my laptop).

I'd like those instruments to load only once at the beginning when I open up the main project for the whole piece. After that, I'd like them to stay in memory, so that when I move from subsection to subsection or up to the main project it only takes a couple of seconds to switch context.

It seems like a Reaper's subprojects might be a good match for this use case - which is why I came to this thread.

I've tried three approaches with subprojects so far, and neither has really worked properly. However, I would love to find a way to make Reaper work for what I'm trying to do.
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Old 11-25-2017, 11:46 PM   #101
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According to this thread, I can automate switching between presets:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=122697)
While this is great, you also can use SWS LiveConfigs for this, which allows to push presets onto multiple plugis at the same time.

Of course you are right that with using "live" subprojects in this situation you can't avoid that multiple subproject will be active in parallel.

I don't understand why this is necessarily "forbidden" with VEP, but of course CPU load might be too high for audio playback, but rendering the main projects usually should not be affected.

If this would work, simply temporarily switching some of the subprojects to "pre-rendered" (and waiting until rendering is performed) would allow a for perfect workflow editing the one or few "live" subprojects and listening to the final resuls without needing to wait (and avoid the "no parallel use" limitation of VEP - and maybe other plugins).

In the end even "remote" subprojects might be very useful in your situation, using additional boxes for rendering subproject in realtime, and by this preventing waiting time for pre-rendering.

IMHO doing all this in a single consistent selection of a "subproject kind" would be a killer unique feature (and selling point) of a future Reaper version.

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Old 11-26-2017, 12:09 AM   #102
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While this is great, you also can use SWS LiveConfigs for this, which allows to push presets onto multiple plugis at the same time.
Wow - SWS LiveConfigs is a pretty impressive project! It definitely looks like this would be the easier approach for automating which subprojects are connected to VEP. I'll have to figure out how LiveConfigs would work with multiple subprojects.

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I don't understand why this is necessarily "forbidden" with VEP, but of course CPU load might be too high for audio playback, but rendering usually should not be affected.
Yeah, I don't know either why VEP has this limitation. I'll ask on the VEP forum and see what the deal is.

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If this would work, simply temporarily switching some of the subprojects to "pre-rendered" (and waiting until rendering is performed) would allow a for perfect workflow editing the one or few "live" subprojects and listening to the resuls without needing to wait (and avoid the "no parallel use" limitation of VEP - and maybe other plugins).
Yeah I guess so. Still I feel like a lot of time is going to be spent waiting for the renders to happen. It might be the best option though.
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Old 11-26-2017, 03:34 AM   #103
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It seems like a Reaper's subprojects might be a good match for this use case - which is why I came to this thread.
No, subprojects require rendering, so this is not a fitting model here.

There is also switchable songs* .lua. You would design your sections as different songs/projects then. Make a directory for your song, then inside that directory make new projects like a.rpp,b.rpp,c.rpp or verse.rpp,chorus.rpp,intro.rpp,outro or for film music give names according to scenes, sceneN.rpp. Tick "create subfolders for each project" of course. Then you would have a clean directory for your whole song, each section having inside separate subfolders and switchable songs .lua would manage the easy switching. Just one experiment worth trying.

* https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=181159
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Old 11-26-2017, 09:08 AM   #104
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No, subprojects require rendering, so this is not a fitting model here.
Since this is a Feature Request thread for subprojects, I am climbing on board the feature request train for "live subprojects" which would allow subprojects to be played in realtime, not pre-rendered. I am not the first person to ask for this.

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There is also switchable songs* .lua. https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=181159
Thank you - this looks to be an extremely interesting project - especially for live use. I will play around with it!

However, it doesn't seem to allow for overlapping projects, and it seems to use muting/unmuting tracks as its method of disabling/enabling projects. I've just done some tests and muting a track containing a VEP instance doesn't disconnect it from its server.

So given that VEP doesn't allow multiple projects to access its instances simultaneously, and given that routing midi/audio between Reaper subprojects does not seem to work very well, I will re-iterate my request for Reaper to implement a feature to allow loaded instruments to be shared between open subprojects.
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Old 11-26-2017, 09:25 AM   #105
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Why are normal regions not good enough? They are also routing through same synths. What is the problem there?
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Old 11-26-2017, 01:20 PM   #106
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Wow - SWS LiveConfigs is a pretty impressive project!
I wrote an extended user guide for same,. Maybe it might help. -> www.bschnell.de/LiveConfigs_1.pdf .

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Old 12-28-2017, 10:26 PM   #107
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I really want to love subprojects, but always end up frustrated. It seems they got 95% there then were abandoned. (1 changelog entry in 20 months)


Fixing these tiny quirks would be a major improvement:
(I typically use the action to move tracks to a subproject so maybe some of these problems are specific to that.)

1) Using the recording file name format for subprojects isn't a good idea. Ask for a name, or have a preference.

No one wants their drum subproject named $track $month$day $hour$minute

2) Don't render immediately when a subproject is created. At least give us a chance to set the start/end points. My projects never start at bar 1 and often have unused parts/sections at the end that I don't want rendered.

3) Don't re-render unchanged subprojects. I always keep the save option to copy media checked, and this causes each subproject to re-render. I can't think of any reason to re-render an unchanged project, especially automatically.

4) An option for manual only subproject rendering, with a few subprojects open that dialog gets intrusive. Assume the user knows what they are doing (a warning about out of date subprojects when rendering the main project might be useful however).

5) Optionally copy all regions/markers, they are probably relevant to the song structure, and losing them makes navigating subprojects more difficult than it needs to be.


Thanks!
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:40 PM   #108
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Default Better than chunks

I use subprojects in a DP chunks type workflow.

A film or TV episode will have a master project and each cue (and subsequent version of a cue) is a subproject created from a template specific for the project. The Subproject is copied, renamed and imported. I import the video and splits and create the music from there. The master fader is the stems of the cue, i.e. the master fader is 48channels with stems on predefined channels which are printed to the master session when exiting the subproject.

It's been an excellent way to work and I've been doing it for more than a year now.
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Old 12-29-2017, 04:12 AM   #109
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5) Optionally copy all regions/markers, they are probably relevant to the song structure, and losing them makes navigating subprojects more difficult than it needs to be.
Other points are valid. Markers and regions are included in the file when you check that in the render settings. You see them in the rendered item then which is pretty cool and helpful. If you need them in the ruler you could export those as file and reimport in the master project.
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Old 12-29-2017, 06:33 PM   #110
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I use subprojects in a DP chunks type workflow.

A film or TV episode will have a master project and each cue (and subsequent version of a cue) is a subproject created from a template specific for the project. The Subproject is copied, renamed and imported. I import the video and splits and create the music from there. The master fader is the stems of the cue, i.e. the master fader is 48channels with stems on predefined channels which are printed to the master session when exiting the subproject.

It's been an excellent way to work and I've been doing it for more than a year now.
That's really interesting, but I didn't quite follow. Would you mind elaborating on your workflow? My attempts at trying to recreate chunks haven't been successful.

Much appreciated and thanks!

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Old 01-14-2018, 11:58 AM   #111
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That's really interesting, but I didn't quite follow. Would you mind elaborating on your workflow? My attempts at trying to recreate chunks haven't been successful.
Much appreciated and thanks!
-sfb
Yes me too, when you have some time.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:31 PM   #112
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Default Project Template Example

Here's an example of a show template with 10 stereo stems (I work on one show that uses all 32)

Things to notice:

The master cue session template(m00) in the audio files folder as well as all the cue subprojects. m00 is never imported into the session and only exists as a stand alone to create cue subprojects. I make a copy of the session then import the copy that's been renamed to match the cue and cut to the correct spot on the film/show.

The channel depth of the master fader in the subprojects.

The render matrix for printing stems (print stems using region and region matrix). use $region $track wildcards for naming stem outputs.

Subprojects are buffered at the front and back, but regions are from the downbeat of the cue for printing stems.

All of the routing. The subproject multitrack channel outputs to stem channels and stem channels routed to masterfader. The main session cue routing to stem splits.

Channels 1-2 of subproject renders will be blank if the multitracks are routed correctly. This ensure that all stems are getting to the stem tracks and the master session creates a new composite from the stem channels.

Download template:
https://app.box.com/s/irg0bfymprw3ss1x6p5pwf9du53pn7gx

Hope this helps.

What would make this workflow hands down the best in the industry is if Reaper were able to play the video from the master session in the subprojects so that importing project video and audio into each individual cue is unnecessary. That said, it's really not that big of deal importing into each cue.

One other thing, when I'm developing a track I don't need stems as I do the routing once the track in near completion. To prevent rendering blank channels from getting backup constantly I change the subproject masterfader to 2 channels until I've routed the multitracks to create stems. This keeps 'in development' renders down to 2 channels.

Last edited by blumpy; 01-14-2018 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 01-15-2018, 03:05 AM   #113
DynamicK
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@blumpy Many thanks for posting this. These techniques are very informative for a new Reaper user.
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Old 01-15-2018, 03:14 AM   #114
blumpy
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I hope this helps a little. This method, at least for me, blows the doors off chunks.

If...you're new to reaper.....I....highly suggest.....that you.... consider watching.......each and every Kenny Gioia video.... "Learn Reaper" video....in order. This was written...... In.....Kenny speak...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq2...t=da&flow=grid
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