Old 02-22-2016, 01:53 AM   #1
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default USB - real time audio performance

I need help because I am getting crazy.
I have a relativly new pc (i5 4570, 8GB RAM, SSD).
It is not high end but sufficient for handling real time audio.
Realtime Performance is at 15-20%

So now I have dropouts. Not always but every 15 Minutes or so.
No crackles or other stuff, just a plain dorpout for about 1 second.

I switched to a behringer umc404hd lately because I wanted to have 4 inputs. (Please no berhinger bashing, except for helpful hints).
Maybe a driver issue, because I had no such problems with my m-audio 24/96 PCI-card.

I started latency mon. This reports problems with power management, which is not possible (and no hint into the behringer direction).
I have deactivated all relevant power saving things (Bios and OS).
Latency mon suggests to update all bios and drivers, which I did - with no change at all.

I donīt know what I can do...and I am depressed.
If someone could make a good suggestion, that would be highly appreciated.

I would like to get it to work, because I want to stay with the behringer (4ins / 4 outs, good audio quality).

Thankīs in advance


Last edited by TheWhistler; 02-22-2016 at 02:03 AM.
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2016, 02:52 AM   #2
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Oh, and I have to say, I worked myself through a guide for optimizing win7 for audio.
I have everything setup for good audio-performance, which I actually have.
But dropouts every now and then very random.
I donīt know how to find whatīs going wrong....
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2016, 02:53 AM   #3
msmucr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Praha, Czech republic
Posts: 590
Default

Hi Whistler,

I can recall original discussion thread regarding it.. so problem occurred again, that's pity.

Again, you're likely fine with latency performance of your computer and anyway red message at LatencyMon is generic advice what may have happened.. it doesn't mean, you have an issue with power management. Generally, your values looks O.K. to me and whole warning about unsuitable system is triggered by pagefaults count (last meter at the bottom).
In most cases pagefaults comes from other software than DAW, like simultaneously running Google Chrome or so. If you want to check that, switch to Processes tab after your analysis and sort it by Hard pagefaults column there.

Anyway, dropout with 15min interval doesn't really indicate issues with DPC latency, where it is usually much shorter interval and doesn't exhibit as 1s total silence, but rather as a sequence of short crackles (because audio ring buffer at interface repeats its content over and over, until it gets refilled from the computer).
I remember, you've already tried lot of things with USB connections, port, USB suspend, cables etc.
Really only remaining thing, which comes to my mind, is possible hardware problem with particular interface. How does it behave with normal playback outside of DAW.. (eg. watching long youtube clip)? Do you have a chance to try it at different computer?
Just thinking about isolation of problem.

Michal
__________________
FRs: Better FX bypass

Last edited by msmucr; 02-22-2016 at 03:04 AM.
msmucr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2016, 04:58 AM   #4
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 20,334
Default

Obvious question: What were you using for an interface pre the behringer and was performance with ASIO4all or the interface`s own ASIO driver OK?
__________________
"What a dick comment. I'm gonna make sure to avoid your name." Dicks other than Trump can speak????
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2016, 08:22 AM   #5
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmucr View Post
Hi Whistler,

I can recall original discussion thread regarding it.. so problem occurred again, that's pity.

Again, you're likely fine with latency performance of your computer and anyway red message at LatencyMon is generic advice what may have happened.. it doesn't mean, you have an issue with power management. Generally, your values looks O.K. to me and whole warning about unsuitable system is triggered by pagefaults count (last meter at the bottom).
In most cases pagefaults comes from other software than DAW, like simultaneously running Google Chrome or so. If you want to check that, switch to Processes tab after your analysis and sort it by Hard pagefaults column there.

Anyway, dropout with 15min interval doesn't really indicate issues with DPC latency, where it is usually much shorter interval and doesn't exhibit as 1s total silence, but rather as a sequence of short crackles (because audio ring buffer at interface repeats its content over and over, until it gets refilled from the computer).
I remember, you've already tried lot of things with USB connections, port, USB suspend, cables etc.
Really only remaining thing, which comes to my mind, is possible hardware problem with particular interface. How does it behave with normal playback outside of DAW.. (eg. watching long youtube clip)? Do you have a chance to try it at different computer?
Just thinking about isolation of problem.

Michal
Thatīs right. Thank you for answering again. The "original discussion" in fact was a kind of hijack.
Just because you askedk, I think there was a problem with a youtube-video as well.
Maybe it is really a hardware-thing.
Not only did I swap every port or cable. I triple checked my power-settings, background services, every possible windows setting....

Time to get in contact with my dealer...

So thank you for encouraging me to do so.
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2016, 08:25 AM   #6
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Obvious question: What were you using for an interface pre the behringer and was performance with ASIO4all or the interface`s own ASIO driver OK?
Thankīs for the reply.
I was / am using the m-audio delta 24/96. It still resides in my computer.
But I just use itīs midi port now.

I never used the ASIO4all driver, only ever the dedicated ASIO-driver provided by the manufacturer (behringer / m-audio).

Would you suggest trying the ASIO4all driver?
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2016, 08:42 AM   #7
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 20,334
Default

Sorry - must have got the ASIO4ALL from another thread. I remember seeing a little animated gif showing ASIO4ALL and thought it was your previous thread.
I am an old fool and you know what they say about them!!

Definitely DO NOT bother with ASIO4ALL. It almost certainly will not improve matters.

Have you checked on the net to see if others are having trouble with the Behringer`s ASIO drivers?
__________________
"What a dick comment. I'm gonna make sure to avoid your name." Dicks other than Trump can speak????
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2016, 09:43 AM   #8
msmucr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Praha, Czech republic
Posts: 590
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWhistler View Post
Thatīs right. Thank you for answering again. The "original discussion" in fact was a kind of hijack.
Just because you askedk, I think there was a problem with a youtube-video as well.
Maybe it is really a hardware-thing.
Not only did I swap every port or cable. I triple checked my power-settings, background services, every possible windows setting....

Time to get in contact with my dealer...

So thank you for encouraging me to do so.
Hmm.. if it is also happening with youtube playback, then it most probably indicates to the hardware issue.. Definitely it is not DPC latency problem (although it is never bad thing to check latencies in system for DAW usage).
Generic application (like web browser) uses very long buffers to access audio interface compared to DAWs.. usually there aren't any issues with crackles with playback via direct sound even at totally unoptimized systems.

Good luck with your possible hardware return..
I hope, only this particular unit is affected and it isn't some common flaw for UMC404.. (strange thing is Thomann delisted it from their e-shop)
Frankly, I can't think about any similarly priced interface with such number of I/Os and features. Everything else with 4 mic inputs is going to be much pricier than Behringer.. like UR44, Roland Octa Capture, Scarlett 18i8..

Michal
__________________
FRs: Better FX bypass
msmucr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2016, 10:43 AM   #9
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmucr View Post
Hmm.. if it is also happening with youtube playback, then it most probably indicates to the hardware issue.. Definitely it is not DPC latency problem (although it is never bad thing to check latencies in system for DAW usage).
Generic application (like web browser) uses very long buffers to access audio interface compared to DAWs.. usually there aren't any issues with crackles with playback via direct sound even at totally unoptimized systems.

Good luck with your possible hardware return..
I hope, only this particular unit is affected and it isn't some common flaw for UMC404.. (strange thing is Thomann delisted it from their e-shop)
Frankly, I can't think about any similarly priced interface with such number of I/Os and features. Everything else with 4 mic inputs is going to be much pricier than Behringer.. like UR44, Roland Octa Capture, Scarlett 18i8..

Michal
I bought it at Bax-shop. A friend of mine ordered one of the last ones at Thomann.
He was totally satisfied, so I did not hesitate.
As you said, value for money is excellent with that piece of gear.
And the driver ist pretty stable. I get round-trip latency with a buffer of 64 samples within 5 ms.
No crackles at all. Just the f.... dropouts every 15min or so

Moneyback is over since a few weeks. I got to get in contact with my vendor.
I will tell how things develop.

Last edited by TheWhistler; 02-22-2016 at 10:56 AM.
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2016, 11:01 AM   #10
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 26,530
Default

Are you sure the YouTube symptom is exact? I believe you but it's not unusual at all for streaming video to have hiccups and don't want that to get munged into this issue unless we can be really comfortable they are exactly the same root cause.
__________________
Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2016, 01:06 PM   #11
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Are you sure the YouTube symptom is exact? I believe you but it's not unusual at all for streaming video to have hiccups and don't want that to get munged into this issue unless we can be really comfortable they are exactly the same root cause.
No, I am not sure, I have to say, that I liked the idea of having a cause for the problems I have.
Maybe I have to investigate more.

I will switch back to the m-audio card. Which causes me to buy cables at the weekend (or soldering).
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2016, 02:03 PM   #12
alanofoz
Human being with feelings
 
alanofoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oz - Blue Mountains NSW, formerly Geelong
Posts: 774
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWhistler View Post
A friend of mine ordered one of the last ones at Thomann.
He was totally satisfied, so I did not hesitate.
Can you borrow that one and try it?
__________________
It's "its" except when it's "it is".

bunyipmusic.com
alanofoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2016, 04:34 AM   #13
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alanofoz View Post
Can you borrow that one and try it?
Why didnīt I think of that. Fabulous idea
Will ask him asap.

Edit: Got the interface, will start testing this evening...hopefully will get a result and not only further questions.

Last edited by TheWhistler; 02-24-2016 at 03:55 AM.
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2016, 01:22 AM   #14
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

OK, tested (with borrowed interface of my friend). Same result. Sudden hangs every now and then, totally unrelated to cpu-usage.
Have RT-CPU of about 10%.
Does not seem to be hardware related....f....

As I told in earlier post, I have a delta 24/96 which I still use as a midi input.
I deactivated this card now, and just use the behringer to see if it happens again.
Maybe some weird conflict....will tell if it helps.

Does anyone else than me use this behringer device? Come on donīt be ashamed and tell me please

Last edited by TheWhistler; 02-26-2016 at 01:04 AM.
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2016, 03:22 AM   #15
Evan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,545
Default

Check out this thread on KvR (especially last post on 2nd page):

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewto...02117&start=15

And please let us know if you find out more about the issue. Because the UMC404HD is on my radar for future purchase.
Evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2016, 05:06 AM   #16
cyrano
Human being with feelings
 
cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 4,858
Default

Does the BIOS in your PC have a lot of options for waitstates, ACPI setup etc? Have you tried experimenting with those? Change one setting at a time and see how it goes.

I've been researching a problem I'm having with 1 Mac Mini and 1 iMac. The iMac is the latest generation, the Mac Mini is a couple of years old. Both run the latest OSX.

The same problem as you are having. With an RME interface. That's why I'm fairly certain it has something to do with hardware. Something like speedstepping. The CPU switching down at the wrong moment. Or USB. It seems the Intel Haswell chipset has something weird in the USB peripheral chips.

The problem is pretty universal, but rare. Most people never have a problem. Those that do, are pulling hair. There's a related problem, where some people get sudden short bursts of very loud noise. That seems to happen on Windows and OSX too. With all brands of interfaces, all DAW's...

Unfortunately when it comes to the Macs, there's no BIOS settings to experiment with. And hacking the EFI is hard, cause there's hardly any docs.
__________________
“It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity” Albert Einstein
cyrano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2016, 07:39 AM   #17
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
Check out this thread on KvR (especially last post on 2nd page):

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewto...02117&start=15

And please let us know if you find out more about the issue. Because the UMC404HD is on my radar for future purchase.
I read the whole thread. I can confirm all the positive impressions, other users had.
This last post on page 2 isnīt really related to my special problem, I think.
What is describe there sounds like an overly loaded cpu (pops and crackles).
Aside from that, is the author of that post mixing up different things: Latency, direct monitoring and buffer sizes.

Latency does not get bigger when the cpu is load increases, which is what the author implies, does he?
Latency is about buffer sizes and the capability of the cpu vs. the load I put on it (VSTis, FX,....).

I have one single problem: Every now and then (mostly all 15 - 20 minutes) I have a dropout of about (guessed/felt) 0,5 - 1 sec.

Besides that, the Behringer UMC404 is the f.... best audio-interface I ever owned.
The latency is incredibble low. I have never had such a thight feeling when playing synth or even guitar through an amp-sim.
Guitar is my main instrument and it feels great with that little (5ms roundtrip) latency.

Itīs a pity it drops out sometimes....
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2016, 09:10 AM   #18
Evan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,545
Default

You have a single dropout every 15-20 minutes? No other symptoms? Happens with all audio drivers? ASIO and windows audio?

Do you have another laptop/PC to try it (the device) on? If you haven't already done so....
Evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2016, 12:03 PM   #19
Tomas Ve
Human being with feelings
 
Tomas Ve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Posts: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWhistler View Post
I need help because I am getting crazy.
I have a relativly new pc (i5 4570, 8GB RAM, SSD).
So now I have dropouts. Not always but every 15 Minutes or so.
No crackles or other stuff, just a plain dorpout for about 1 second.
I guess I had something similar -- strange crackles on a project with a higher that average CPU load.

After some digging I found out, that both SATA Controller and Firewire controller are sharing the same IRQ. As I could not reassign that using Windows means, I switched to USB (luckily, I have Fireface 802, with both types of connection). After that I could push it higher, but crackles still occured on the projects I was working at the time. So I dug deeper and found a USB port on my laptop, which is assigned to a different internal USB hub. It also wasn't sharing IRQ with any other device. Now I am much happier, although when I use external hardware processors I still switch wireless off, to reduce drivers' load on the system (as you may notice, on your screenshot ndis.sys is one of the high DPC latency culprits).

On Windows you can check the IRQ assignments in Device manager. It's available from Control Panel, or 'Start' -> 'Computer' -> <right click> -> 'Properties' -> 'Device manager'.

Once there you should change view to 'Devices by connection' and find to which USB Controller your audio device is connected.

Then switch to 'Resources by type' view and find your device's USB controller and see who else is using it's IRQ. If there are no other devices, well, you won't optimize much here. If there are some devices, you can disable them in BIOS or in Device Manager.

HTH.
Tomas Ve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2016, 01:07 PM   #20
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
Does the BIOS in your PC have a lot of options for waitstates, ACPI setup etc? Have you tried experimenting with those? Change one setting at a time and see how it goes.

I've been researching a problem I'm having with 1 Mac Mini and 1 iMac. The iMac is the latest generation, the Mac Mini is a couple of years old. Both run the latest OSX.

The same problem as you are having. With an RME interface. That's why I'm fairly certain it has something to do with hardware. Something like speedstepping. The CPU switching down at the wrong moment. Or USB. It seems the Intel Haswell chipset has something weird in the USB peripheral chips.

The problem is pretty universal, but rare. Most people never have a problem. Those that do, are pulling hair. There's a related problem, where some people get sudden short bursts of very loud noise. That seems to happen on Windows and OSX too. With all brands of interfaces, all DAW's...

Unfortunately when it comes to the Macs, there's no BIOS settings to experiment with. And hacking the EFI is hard, cause there's hardly any docs.
I donīt know much about that. I have deactivated all the energy saving options, so the pc will not throttle down.
I know that latencymon suggests to deactivate this, but I have done already (OS and BIOS).

I will have to check the hint with waitstates and acpi, but I have to say, I donīt know what this is (and I would consider myself a more advanced pc-user).
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2016, 01:12 PM   #21
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
You have a single dropout every 15-20 minutes? No other symptoms? Happens with all audio drivers? ASIO and windows audio?

Do you have another laptop/PC to try it (the device) on? If you haven't already done so....
I am not sure about other computers.
I checked it on my convertible and it seems to work. But this machine is to weak as to expect it to be real comparison.

I really guessing (and getting paranoid).
I am sure with the dedicated asio-driver. I am not sure with windows audio.
Some streams get interupted (youtube) and it depends a lot of the internet connection.

I will try the asio4all driver as soon as I have got enough time (working weekdays ya know)
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2016, 01:20 PM   #22
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomas Ve View Post
I guess I had something similar -- strange crackles on a project with a higher that average CPU load.

After some digging I found out, that both SATA Controller and Firewire controller are sharing the same IRQ. As I could not reassign that using Windows means, I switched to USB (luckily, I have Fireface 802, with both types of connection). After that I could push it higher, but crackles still occured on the projects I was working at the time. So I dug deeper and found a USB port on my laptop, which is assigned to a different internal USB hub. It also wasn't sharing IRQ with any other device. Now I am much happier, although when I use external hardware processors I still switch wireless off, to reduce drivers' load on the system (as you may notice, on your screenshot ndis.sys is one of the high DPC latency culprits).

On Windows you can check the IRQ assignments in Device manager. It's available from Control Panel, or 'Start' -> 'Computer' -> <right click> -> 'Properties' -> 'Device manager'.

Once there you should change view to 'Devices by connection' and find to which USB Controller your audio device is connected.

Then switch to 'Resources by type' view and find your device's USB controller and see who else is using it's IRQ. If there are no other devices, well, you won't optimize much here. If there are some devices, you can disable them in BIOS or in Device Manager.

HTH.
Do you have the exact same interface? Edit: Not you donīt fireface, should read more accurate

I will check the irq, but donīt have enough time before weekend.

Last edited by TheWhistler; 02-26-2016 at 01:02 AM.
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2016, 02:09 PM   #23
Evan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,545
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWhistler View Post
I am not sure with windows audio.
Some streams get interupted (youtube) and it depends a lot of the internet connection.
In your next tests, try turning off the wifi adapter, if you use one. Network adapters are/have been notorious for creating issues with audio interfaces. Especially wireless. Remove all the non-essential USB devices also, for good measure.

Finally, do bother testing the interface on different computers. Make a portable Reaper installation on a USB stick, or something, along with a test project. And test it on other PCs with your audio interface.
Evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2016, 11:51 PM   #24
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
In your next tests, try turning off the wifi adapter, if you use one. Network adapters are/have been notorious for creating issues with audio interfaces. Especially wireless. Remove all the non-essential USB devices also, for good measure.

Finally, do bother testing the interface on different computers. Make a portable Reaper installation on a USB stick, or something, along with a test project. And test it on other PCs with your audio interface.
Thankīs for tips. I donīt use wifi (desktop). I already made test with the network-card deactivated (device-manager / bios) -> did not make any difference.
The only usb-device which is constantly conected (along with the audio interface) is my bloody standard thrust keyboard/mouse connection.
This obviously canīt be disconnected. Maybe I should try to use another one (cable based) but I donīt have much hope this would make a difference.
I have one backup-drive connceted but turned off, I could try to really unconnect, but....should also not make a difference, but will try, though.

I am really greatful for all hints to solve this issue, but I am afraid that I have done all of what you mentioned already. Thankīs instead, but thatīs why I am feeling a bit lost atm
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2016, 01:04 AM   #25
lolilol1975
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,603
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWhistler View Post
OK, tested. Same result. Sudden hangs every now and then, totally unrelated to cpu-usage.
Have RT-CPU of about 10%.
Does not seem to be hardware related....f....

As I told in earlier post, I have a delta 24/96 which I still use as a midi input.
I deactivated this card now, and just use the behringer to see if it happens again.
Maybe some weird conflict....will tell if it helps.

Does anyone else than me use this behringer device? Come on donīt be ashamed and tell me please
If there are no dropouts withe the M-audio, then your system is probably fine, and there is an issue with the Behringer driver I suppose. Maybe your hard disk is a bit slow and you need to check the Reaper settings regarding hard disk access.
I won't go back to Windows stuff (deactivating stuff like Windows search or update, Java update Adobe update etc) as it seems you've done everything and your numbers are pretty darn good actually. Maybe you can contact Behringer.

As for YouTube, there is a grayish bar and the red bar. The greyish bar is the buffered video and should always be ahead of the red bar. If the red bar reaches the greyish bar then it means the buffer wasn't done fast enough and the video will stop. Nothing to do with your system but with Internet connection so no worries.

Last edited by lolilol1975; 02-26-2016 at 01:12 AM.
lolilol1975 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2016, 01:24 AM   #26
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolilol1975 View Post
If there are no dropouts withe the M-audio, then your system is probably fine, and there is an issue with the Behringer driver I suppose. Maybe your hard disk is a bit slow and you need to check the Reaper settings regarding hard disk access.
I won't go back to Windows stuff as it seems you've done everything and your numbers are pretty darn good actually. Maybe you can contact Behringer.

As for YouTube, there is a grayish bar and the red bar. The greyish bar is the buffered video and should always be ahead of the red bar. If the red bar reaches the greyish bar then it means the buffer wasn't done fast enough and the video will stop. Nothing to do with your system but with Internet connection so no worries.
Yeah, that is what I think actually - done everything I can so far.
The hint by latency mon seems to be generic and not really related to my system -
One thing I did was to deactivate the M-audio card and switch totally to the behringer.
First I used the m-audio as midi input, which is not really necessary in my setup.
I have hope this could be the cause for my problem because since then I did not have the issue again.
On the other hand I did just a bit of plonking and had no time for real stress testing, though.

I could not see if the behringer is sharing irq with the m-audio (this is somehow not displayed in my device manager).
I have to look a bit further for that if it happens again.

Will post again if so or if system is stable.

EDIT: Deactivating the m-audio card did not make any difference.
Next thing I will do is trying a notebook I will borrow.

Thank you all for the helpful advice, hints,.....

Last edited by TheWhistler; 02-26-2016 at 08:13 AM.
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2016, 07:18 AM   #27
northwoodmediaworks
Human being with feelings
 
northwoodmediaworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 133
Default

I gained some relief from this video, your mileage may vary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=GUsLLEkswzE

For me it was disabling all networking.

Cheers
__________________
Robin
Northwood Mediaworks
http://northwoodmediaworks.com
northwoodmediaworks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2016, 11:09 AM   #28
msmucr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Praha, Czech republic
Posts: 590
Default

I will repeat myself, but it doesn't seems to be related to DPC latency, such issues doesn't cut out sound for 1s every 20m, when playing Youtube clip..
So all linked guides and recommendation related to C-states, generic computer optimization for audio etc. are worthless IMO.
Any current computer can fluently play audio from web browser regardless of optimizations. It isn't latency sensitive workload like DAW usage with short ASIO buffers.

It really looks like driver issue, which affects just particular combination of software and hardware or your particular settings, because your friend seems to be fine with UMC404HD.
I haven't had any chance to test UMC404HD, but to me it seems, it uses OEM Thesycon driver for USB class compliant devices.
Usually this driver (although it varies by vendor, who can customize its panel) has settings related to USB packet buffer (eg. safe, relaxed etc.) and sometimes you can find also settings for power saving there (with options, normal and always-on). Try to switch it to always on mode, if it will be possible.
Other thing is Behringer released two versions of UMC drivers.. one is 2.23 and newer is 3.29, each uses different Thesycon driver.. Try the other one, than you have currently installed.
http://www.music-group.com/Categorie...0BK1/downloads
It is basically same as with Focusrite Scarlett USB drivers, which also uses mentioned OEM drivers (they have stable v 2.5 and beta is 3.2)

Additionally, if you have USB 3.0 driver by Intel installed at your computer, try to update it to latest version for your chipset from Intel website (ideally google for it, their website search is tragic). I had issues with Antelope Orion 32, which also uses class compliant driver and this was the culprit. Newer Intel USB 3 driver solved that.

Michal
__________________
FRs: Better FX bypass
msmucr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2016, 01:18 PM   #29
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmucr View Post
I will repeat myself, but it doesn't seems to be related to DPC latency, such issues doesn't cut out sound for 1s every 20m, when playing Youtube clip..
So all linked guides and recommendation related to C-states, generic computer optimization for audio etc. are worthless IMO.
Any current computer can fluently play audio from web browser regardless of optimizations. It isn't latency sensitive workload like DAW usage with short ASIO buffers.

It really looks like driver issue, which affects just particular combination of software and hardware or your particular settings, because your friend seems to be fine with UMC404HD.
I haven't had any chance to test UMC404HD, but to me it seems, it uses OEM Thesycon driver for USB class compliant devices.
Usually this driver (although it varies by vendor, who can customize its panel) has settings related to USB packet buffer (eg. safe, relaxed etc.) and sometimes you can find also settings for power saving there (with options, normal and always-on). Try to switch it to always on mode, if it will be possible.
Other thing is Behringer released two versions of UMC drivers.. one is 2.23 and newer is 3.29, each uses different Thesycon driver.. Try the other one, than you have currently installed.
http://www.music-group.com/Categorie...0BK1/downloads
It is basically same as with Focusrite Scarlett USB drivers, which also uses mentioned OEM drivers (they have stable v 2.5 and beta is 3.2)

Additionally, if you have USB 3.0 driver by Intel installed at your computer, try to update it to latest version for your chipset from Intel website (ideally google for it, their website search is tragic). I had issues with Antelope Orion 32, which also uses class compliant driver and this was the culprit. Newer Intel USB 3 driver solved that.

Michal
Again Michal, a big THANK YOU for your patient helping
I owe you a rew beers, next time you visit Regensburg (meant really honest, there are a lot of great pubs in my city)

I will try all your suggestions this evening and will give feedback soon.
Really +1 for your help!!
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2016, 01:58 PM   #30
lolilol1975
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,603
Default

Now *that* is really detailed help of the kind that is usually only given by competent level 2 support engineers.

msmucr, you rock, Sir.
lolilol1975 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2016, 02:35 PM   #31
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Dear Michal, not only do I owe you a few beers but a crate !!!
I updated the usb 3.0 driver to newest version. Was bit fumbly because the intel-utility was not able to do this automatically.
So had to search and install by myself.

After that I installed the newest behringer umc404 driver.
I did not know there was a new one. It must have been updated only recently.

What I can say atm is that I was plonking for about half an hour.
This was a timespan in which the specific problem typically occured.

NOT NOW
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2016, 03:19 PM   #32
msmucr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Praha, Czech republic
Posts: 590
Default

Hi Whistler,

that looks like good news.. I hope, it will last without further audio cutoffs.

Sometimes, there can be similar compatibility issue, which is later fixed by vendors in drivers or device firmware, usually it is some overlook, not so strict USB standard compliance or necessary quirk (like longer timeouts) for its reliable functionality.
Also Thesycon guys (http://www.thesycon.de/eng/usb_audiodriver.shtml) are constantly improving their OEM driver, which is one of best at Windows platform for class compliant devices, but vendors sometimes lag with rebuilding of their customized driver packages for particular product.
Generally USB devices debugging can be real PITA, because lot of layers involved in transfers between applications and device firmware. So there is quite wide area of possible problem occurrence. Additionally, there can be problem with monitoring of what's going at the bus, because of high bandwidth and latency demands, so hardware analyzer is required, if you really need to inspect all communication.
Anyway, that's why I recommended just these mentioned generic steps with driver swap (last UMC driver were released two weeks ago).. although I don't exactly know, what's causing troubles at your particular setup.

Good luck with your interface!

Michal

P.S.: It will be certainly very nice to drink few beers with you at Regensburg
__________________
FRs: Better FX bypass
msmucr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2016, 03:25 PM   #33
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmucr View Post
Hi Whistler,

that looks like good news.. I hope, it will last without further audio cutoffs.

Sometimes, there can be similar compatibility issue, which is later fixed by vendors in drivers or device firmware, usually it is some overlook, not so strict USB standard compliance or necessary quirk (like longer timeouts) for its reliable functionality.
Also Thesycon guys (http://www.thesycon.de/eng/usb_audiodriver.shtml) are constantly improving their OEM driver, which is one of best at Windows platform for class compliant devices, but vendors sometimes lag with rebuilding of their customized driver packages for particular product.
Generally USB devices debugging can be real PITA, because lot of layers involved in transfers between applications and device firmware. So there is quite wide area of possible problem occurrence. Additionally, there can be problem with monitoring of what's going at the bus, because of high bandwidth and latency demands, so hardware analyzer is required, if you really need to inspect all communication.
Anyway, that's why I recommended just these mentioned generic steps with driver swap (last UMC driver were released two weeks ago).. although I don't exactly know, what's causing troubles at your particular setup.

Good luck with your interface!

Michal

P.S.: It will be certainly very nice to drink few beers with you at Regensburg
It is keeping stable for the last hour or so.
I also donīt know what the problem was (usb 3.0 driver / umc driver).
But it seems to be gone.

You have a good knowledge of these things and have been very helpful, because I had done all the generic things already.
I knew this could not be the cause of the problem because the system worked before.

So, drop me line when you are around and we will have a few beers and listen to some music, promise.

Greetz
Whistler
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2016, 03:29 PM   #34
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by northwoodmediaworks View Post
I gained some relief from this video, your mileage may vary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=GUsLLEkswzE

For me it was disabling all networking.

Cheers
Thank yor for the link to this interesting information.
I have (hopefully) solved my issue, which was due to usb 3.0 and umc404 driver conflict, obviously, though.
No network involved in my scenario. But thankīs instead
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2016, 03:52 PM   #35
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Finally, I really think the issue is solved

I have been playing much longer than the issue normaly came up.

I want to thank all of you that tried to help me with hints and suggestions.
Even if something mentioned did not lead into the right direction I got a lot of useful information.

So thank you all !!!

Most of all, of course, msmucr.

I hope this thread is of some use for someone having the same / similar problem.

Good night
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2016, 03:17 AM   #36
Evan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,545
Default

Great to hear!

So what was it exactly... the UMC404HD driver doesn't like a USB3.0 port? How did you solve it? Connected to USB2?

Some laptops may only come with USB3 ports (moreso in the future), so it is important to know.

Thanks
Evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2016, 03:33 AM   #37
TheWhistler
Human being with feelings
 
TheWhistler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Deep in the pocket...
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
Great to hear!

So what was it exactly... the UMC404HD driver doesn't like a USB3.0 port? How did you solve it? Connected to USB2?

Some laptops may only come with USB3 ports (moreso in the future), so it is important to know.

Thanks
Not the port itself. the UMC works on an usb 3.0 port quite well, respectively the problem was not related to a certain port (2.0 or 3.0).
I know that sometimes there are suggestions to not connect usb 2.0 audio-interfaces to usb 3.0 ports.
The problem occured on either of them.

I updated the usb 3.0 driver. I overlooked that because I updated all my mainboard drivers.
The chipset and usb drivers arenīt covered by gigbyte, so I had to update these individually.
Then msmucr pointed me to the updated driver for the UMC404hd provided by Behringer.
I did both of that in one go, which is not so good in terms of knowing what really caused the problem.

Only thing I can say is, it works so far. I am really confident that the issue is gone.
I was playing all the rest of the evening yesterday without the dropouts occuring.
But the problem was pretty random, so I will have bit of uncertainty left, but it really looks good atm.

Good thing is, UMC1820 is being shipped right now. If you need more inputs, itīs killer (and same architecture like UMC404).

I will connect the umc to a usb 3.0 port for testing for the next few days and will report if it works.

What I have to say about the UMC404 is (if the issue is gone), that it has an incredible low latency and really good audio quality.

Last edited by TheWhistler; 02-27-2016 at 03:42 AM.
TheWhistler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2016, 07:26 AM   #38
Evan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,545
Default

Yes, the UMCs look killer for the price, definitely on my radar!

btw... is it true that the UMC404HD can only record 2 tracks at once?

Glad the issue has been resolved, and very much appreciate your feedback!
Evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2016, 07:58 AM   #39
chucky5p
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 454
Default

TheWhistler,

Most likely, your problem was fixed by behringer's latest driver (v3.29.0). Back in September 2015, I tried 4 USB interfaces, among which, a UMC204HD and a UMC404 (the others were Tascam US2x2 and Zoom's UAC-2) Both UMCs had the same behavior; clean sound for a while, then interrupted by a short gap/silence, and this independently of buffer size, driver version (tried all of the available ones), USB protocol (2 or 3) and PCs (tried on 3 different PCs; same issue) So I returned both UMCs back to the store. This latest driver must have fixed the issue. I noticed it's a universal driver for all UMC audio interfaces. This fix is great news for all UMCs owners

Aside from that issue, the UMCs had good sound but I would hardly call them "great" audio interfaces. Both had much more noise and distortion than either the US2x2 or UAC-2 and while their round-trip latency was "low", it was no where near as low as Zoom's UAC-2, but more worrisome is that the UMC driver "reports" artificially low latency results which can "throw-off" any DAW's Plugin Delay Compensation mechanism(PDC), which in turn may produce "misaligned" tracks when tracking (unless you "offset" for it by the proper amount in your DAW). This is caused by the UMC driver which has a relatively large "hidden" buffer that add ~3ms to whatever you see in your DAW, so the REAL latency is always more than what's shown in your DAW, but if you use a round-trip latency test utility like Centrance you'll see the UMCs true latency (look at screen caps below). Note that these results are based on the old drivers and it is possible that the latest drivers from Behringer have fixed this "false" latency reporting. However, since I don't have the UMCs anymore, I cannot confirm/deny this, but it is easy to verify yourself by using the Centrance utility:

https://centrance.com/downloads/ltu/

FWIW, if you like the "low" latency of your UMC404HD, you'd LOVE the "amazingly low" latency of the UAC-2 (less than half of the UMC404!). However, the UAC-2 is relatively much more expensive than the UMC404HD(~250$ vs 100$), and more importantly, if you're happy with your UMC404, it's all that really matters

Test results of 5 audio interfaces below (UA-1G is Roland's. It's a 1st gen USB 1.1 audio interface):



Below: Latency results of UMC-204HD (same driver/performance as UMC404) at 48Khz and buffer-size of 64 samples (lowest size available). Notice Reaper showing ~2.3/2.3ms (~4.6ms total) which IF was accurate, would be VERY good, vs real latency of 7.73ms as measured by Centrance, so about 3ms of "hidden buffers". Still, 7.7ms is unnoticeable by most people. Only e-drummers would notice that kind of latency and they would prefer <5ms.



Below: Latency results of UAC-2 at 48Khz and buffer-size of 24 samples (lowest size available) as measured by Centrance. Since the UAC-2 driver doesn't have any "hidden" buffers, Reaper is showing ~0.5/2.8ms (~3.3ms total), which is the same result as Centrance (3.35ms) so in this case, the Zoom has ~4.3ms less latency than the UMC! Also, the UAC-2 can operate at much higher sample-rate (i.e. 96k, 192k) and still use low buffer-size (32spl) with "extremely" low resulting round-trip latencies (2.2ms and 1.2ms respectively) as long as your projects are not too complex (a few VSTs).


Note that the UAC-2 is far from perfect. It has ground-loop problems, it's input jacks are WAY too tight (you need to use insane amount of force to plugin a 1/4in cable) but by far it's biggest issue is a "bump" of ~+0.5db in frequency response around 450hz that will "color" anything going through it. Although 0.5db doesn't seem much, in 2016, where < +/- 0.1db is common, IMO it's totally unacceptable. Even more so since most people can hear > 0.3db of coloration, therefore 0.5db is clearly detectable. So I would never use the UAC series as a "reference" converter (the UAC-8 has the same issue). However, this bump doesn't affect the inputs, only the outputs. So if you use the UAC-2 to track guitars, vocals, etc, it wont affects the recordings nor the renderings, only what you are monitoring so you can always use Reapers's monitor FX with ReaEQ to offset this playback bump. Look at the chart below. The UAC-2 is in pink:


If you want similar low-latency performance with even better specs all-around than the UAC-2, (lower noise, no freq bump) you would need to go with RME's BabyFace-PRO interface. However, it is MUCH more expensive than the UAC-2 (~3x more) IMO, within its limitations, currently the UAC-2 represent the best-bang-for-your-buck and it is a Low-Latency Monster

Hope this helps,

Chuck
chucky5p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2016, 10:00 AM   #40
fedexnman
Human being with feelings
 
fedexnman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: mobile al
Posts: 111
Default

Nice thread ! Glad you got the problem solved . I can't wait 4 ,( but will have to wait... lolz ) for Thunderbolt3/USB-C audio interfaces and for Windows to get back in it with laptops and mobos with Thunderbolt3/USB-C , in the meantime I deal with my echo audiofire4 still . It's great for audio recording with an external mic pre but using amp sims , softsynths , see it choke a little .
fedexnman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.