Multi-channel CCs disappear and/or display with incorrect channel color (FIXED)

[juliansader]

In the piano roll, when CCs from multiple channels are displayed in the same lane, some of the CCs disappear. In addition, when the CCs are colored by channel, the colors of some CCs get mixed up. The following GIF is a simple example using 2 channels (more channels lead to even worse mix-ups):



(REAPER v5.201)

[Soli Deo Gloria]

+1000!!!! It´s happening, at least, since I am using Reaper (ca October 2013). It´s just one of those things I never got to report...

[DarkStar]

I'm not seeing that here (in v5.21) - can you upload a small problem project?

But the colours are getting messed up:

>>> https://i.imgur.com/5S6pzlJ.png

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

I'm not seeing that here (in v5.21) - can you upload a small problem project?

But the colours are getting messed up:

>>> https://i.imgur.com/5S6pzlJ.png

What theme is that in the MIDI editor? Just curious.

[DarkStar]

Konzentration_v11 plus mods my me (not published as it is not complete).

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

Konzentration_v11 plus mods my me (not published as it is not complete).

Wow I love it. Thanks!

[John Novak]

+1

Handling of multichannel/multitrack MIDI in Reaper is a mess and will require some serious rework. With the involvement of some people who are actually using such multichannel features day in day out in real-world scenarios. In it's current state multichannel editing is a very half-assed attempt; it's evident that it was implemented by a developer who did not have much clue how these features will be used in real-world scenarios... So multichannel editing might have most of the necessary features "on paper", but they're buggy and the workflow just sucks... again, that dev could not know what a good workflow was, because he's obviously not using such functionality himself. The only way to solve this is with the help from some MIDI composers who are actually using the features in anger.

[juliansader]

v2.24 will feature improvements in channel handling (Yay!!):

* The MIDI editor will display the insert channel for new events, as well as a dropdown list to select this channel.

* Setting the channel for new events will not automatically activate the event filter


Unfortunately, multi-channel display is still very unreliable. It is easy to replicate:

[juliansader]

The recent v5.25 has almost - but not quite - squashed this bug dead: CCs of multiple channels can now be displayed at the same position, as the pretty colors of the following screenshot demonstrates:



There is just one remaining problem: the CC display is ordered by channel, so that CCs in a higher channel are always drawn in front of CCs in lower channels. Shorter (lower-valued) CCs are therefore concealed by longer (high-valued) CCs, if the longer CCs are in a higher channel:



It would be better if CCs - as is already the case for Velocities - are ordered by length (value) first, so that shorter CCs are always drawn in front. All CCs would therefore be easily visible to the user.

[gofer]

I'd actually prefer the current active channel to be displayed on top.

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by juliansader

The recent v5.25 has almost - but not quite - squashed this bug dead: CCs of multiple channels can now be displayed at the same position, as the pretty colors of the following screenshot demonstrates:



There is just one remaining problem: the CC display is ordered by channel, so that CCs in a higher channel are always drawn in front of CCs in lower channels. Shorter (lower-valued) CCs are therefore concealed by longer (high-valued) CCs, if the longer CCs are in a higher channel:



It would be better if CCs - as is already the case for Velocities - are ordered by length (value) first, so that shorter CCs are always drawn in front. All CCs would therefore be easily visible to the user.

+1 agree

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by gofer

I'd actually prefer the current active channel to be displayed on top.

I would be happy with an option to "Display active channel in front".

Alternatively, what about using the channel dropdown menu at the bottom right to switch between the display options?

* When the menu is set to "All channels", then shorter CCs are drawn in front. I.e., the order of precedence is CC value -> Active channel -> Channel number (if the values of two CCs are exactly the same).

* When the menu is set to a specific channel, then the order of precedence is Active channel -> CC value -> Channel number.

If a user wishes to focus even more on the current active channel, he/she can activate the filter checkbox, so that only the active channel is displayed.

[schwa]

Some ordering is required when displaying data that occupies the same time position. I believe there is no perfect solution that will always result in all simultaneous multichannel data being visible at once. Potential changes would add complexity without obviously "fixing" the issue, so I would rate this as a low priority issue. As you say, you can use the MIDI filter to isolate individual channels if you need to edit data that would otherwise be hidden behind data from other channels.

[juliansader]

I am very disappointed that this bug has been demoted to low priority. Personally I find REAPER's buggy multi-channel features to be the biggest impediment to smooth MIDI editing in the piano roll.

Please do not disregard a bug simply because a perfect solution isn't right-in-front-of-your-nose obvious. Instead, this is precisely when the devs - with users' input - should put their heads together to find a proper, satisfying solution. (Would a bug in the notation editor be disregarded simply because a perfect solution isn't obvious? Channels in the piano roll are just as important as voices in the notation editor!)

In fact, several possible solutions - any of which would satisfy even the most discerning users - are discussed in this thread as well as in MIDI editor: CC editing very buggy in multi-channel situations and MIDI editor: Option to limit selection/editing to active channel (for multi-channel). It is up to the devs to decide which of these solutions would be most practical to implement, taking into account coding difficulties as well as future plans.

* Using the MIDI filter to isolate an individual channel would mean that the user loses all context of the other channels.

* It is important to display all MIDI information from all channels as clearly as possible. Shorter events should therefore be placed in front. (Except when the user is editing a specific channel, in which case the active channel goes in front.)

[schwa]

I do not mean to minimize the importance of your issue. But clearly the editing issues in your other threads are higher priority.

[FnA]

@ Schwa: Woot. There are bigger problems.

@ Julian: Don't take that the wrong way. I almost always agree with what you say.

Related to * #2 "Shorter events should therefore be placed in front.":
Surely Velocity needs to be "shortest in front."

[schwa]

For 5.28, CC events for the active channel will be drawn in front, among other related improvements.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by schwa

For 5.28, CC events for the active channel will be drawn in front, among other related improvements.

Yay!!

[EvilDragon]

5.28pre2 FIXED!


This works beautifully now.

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

5.28pre2 FIXED!


This works beautifully now.

How are you doing that magic ED lol? Like, how are you "bringing" the colors to the front each time like that? I can't do that with the new pre! Love it!

[EvilDragon]

I change the active channel with keyboard shortcuts.

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

I change the active channel with keyboard shortcuts.

Is that the same as simply changing the channel from the lower right drop down menu? Because that's what I was doing and it wasn't working. Maybe I goofed? Or is my way just viewing vs changing to active?

[EvilDragon]

Works with "Channel" dropdown menu over here as well.

[tusitala]

hi, is there a way to have the selected event's midi channel shown (and being able to edit it) somewhere in the midi editor?

what i have in mind is something simple like in Cubase key editor, where you can always see it and click on it to edit in the top bar:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tvq6uacBQEk/maxresdefault.jpg


thanks!

[EvilDragon]

You can't have it like that unfortunately. You can see the event's channel in Event Properties.

[tusitala]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

You can't have it like that unfortunately. You can see the event's channel in Event Properties.

thanks a lot for your answer!

i'll try and put a feature request, it would be very handy (especially being used to having it)

all the best!

[EvilDragon]

FR for that already exists... for years...

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

You can't have it like that unfortunately. You can see the event's channel in Event Properties.

The MIDI Inspector will show you the channel as well as other info, and if you click on the yellow text, you can edit the channel:



The MIDI Inspector improves on REAPER's native Properties windows in several ways:
* The GUI is continuously updated and does not interfere with MIDI editing.
* If multiple events are selected, value ranges are shown.
* Note, CC and take information are all shown simultaneously.
* Note and CC positions can be displayed in any of REAPER's time formats.
* The GUI can be docked.

[tusitala]

ah ok...i'll try with another one.

can i ask you another question? (i apologise if this is hijacking the original thread)

is there a way to force the entire track (or midi item too) to play on one specific midi channel, regardless of the actual midi channel that's been recorded?

handy for example when auditioning different kontakt instruments put on different channels on the same track...


thanks again!

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by tusitala

is there a way to force the entire track (or midi item too) to play on one specific midi channel, regardless of the actual midi channel that's been recorded?

Sure, you can use a JSFX (such as MIDI Tool II) to force all MIDI into a specific channel, or if you are sending the MIDI to another track, you can select to send all MIDI to one specific channel instead of the original channels.

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Works with "Channel" dropdown menu over here as well.

Changing channel via that dropdown definitely does not bring any colored CCs like yours, to the front. My eyes are bad, but not that bad

Maybe a setting?
I'll try doing an action.

[tusitala]

Originally Posted by juliansader

Sure, you can use a JSFX (such as MIDI Tool II) to force all MIDI into a specific channel, or if you are sending the MIDI to another track, you can select to send all MIDI to one specific channel instead of the original channels.

THANKS!!!

and i just installed the Midi inspector, it's amazing!!! thanks!

all the best!

:-)

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by lowellben

Changing channel via that dropdown definitely does not bring any colored CCs like yours, to the front. My eyes are bad, but not that bad

Maybe a setting?
I'll try doing an action.

My eyes are not bad either, it works just fine. There's no setting governing this AFAIK.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by lowellben

Changing channel via that dropdown definitely does not bring any colored CCs like yours, to the front. My eyes are bad, but not that bad

Perhaps check the following:
* Is the MIDI editor set to "Color by channel"?
* Have you drawn CCs in more than one channel?

The CCs in active channel will move to the front as soon as you change the active channel.

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

My eyes are not bad either, it works just fine. There's no setting governing this AFAIK.

Right but I literally do exactly what you did, and when I change the dropdown to say, Channel 1, or 2, it TOGGLES between then, doesn't show them overlayed like yours.

That's what I mean, that's what I cannot do. How do you do that? Everytime I change the dropdown to channel X, it ONLY shows X's CC data. No combined. Except of course when ALL channels is selected. I can make a vid if you would like, I'm not trying to be crazy Sorry.

(Edit: Oh, um, maybe I had that filter checkbox selected this whole time, next to dropdown. Maybe) Sorry! Working now