Old 08-08-2016, 03:22 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Coming from the film composing side, and just starting to get my feet wet here, I think it comes down to this for me.

1) Stability. Yes, some of these scripts are extremely useful and give much needed functionality. However, scripts just like Reaper have bugs and need troubleshooting. I've been going through the forums as much as I can and logging every script I think would be useful in my daily workflow. I think I'm up to about 30 scripts I've logged so far and I haven't got that far. So, how is stability affected when I'm running 30 add on scripts from different developers with a huge track count? How do I troubleshoot if there is a conflict? Because a script has a desired add-on functionality doesn't mean it's going to play nice when you run a ton of scripts (which it looks like you currently need to do). And scripts are also going to break occasionally with Reaper updates as well.

2) Overall Workflow. Ok, so I've got all these awesome scripts - and I'm not being sarcastic, there are some really great scripts. Now, in addition to Reaper updates I've got to pay attention to 30 some scripts and install new versions when available. Or contact people when scripts break with a new Reaper version. I know there's utilities like ReaPack which make this easier, but it's still a lot to deal with. I've got to get all these scripts into my current template, make sure they are current and updated and then tie them into my daily workflow. That's a lot of time being taken away from writing cues.

3) Elegance. So, especially the film world where deadlines are just ridiculous (and getting worse every year it seems) solutions need to be elegant. Just because the functionality exists with an add-on script doesn't necessarily make it elegant. It sometimes just makes it exactly that - something that has been added on top of an existing paradigm. If it's not elegant and easy to use, it's going to cut into the amount of minutes I can put up a day. And if I'm not putting up my minutes I'm sunk (or fired). So, it seems to me a lot of these scripts which are really good ideas and provide really good functionality should be looked at closely by the developers to incorporate directly into the program. I'm sure there's easily 10-20 great midi scripts that everyone loves or we could vote on that would benefit all users by becoming a part of the Reaper code. In terms of making deadlines, simple and elegant always wins. That's not to say there's anything wrong with using a lot of great scripts. I would just rather see more basic midi editing functionality part of the program itself.

I know people will disagree with me, but I'm just trying to give a better perspective from the film composing side of things where we have 500-1000 track templates, every sample library known to man and pretty much edit midi all day long.
Yes. And you never know what's coming your way; On my current project, which is high fidelity is Sci-Fi game, I had those directives: to make music that is: scary, melodic, not sad, heavy, low, polyrythmic, with orchestra, synths, like math-metal but without drums and guitars, expressive - telling a story, emotional, not dubstep, to be in the background, modern with retro feel, using polychords, making it sound like drone. All in one. So last thing you want is to micromanage everything in your software, worry about what script does what - you want your software to take care of mundane instead, so you can actually focus on writing. But in reaper there isn't even an easy or clear way of viewing whole sections of recorded midi. So now, when you are back to a sure complex track like what I'm doing, it's hard to get your head around that, and basically if you're not done with it in one sitting, you're fucked. And film music is way simpler than what I'm doing right now - What I'm doing is as complex as it would be Stravinsky writing his music on synths. No way around it! You can't rely just on knowledge of orchestration - got to produce mos of the synths, so you never really know what comes out out of layers upon layers of them. Super exhausting with reaper, but also no way around that atm too, but reaper's issues do constantly get in the way,which you bring up in a moment you have free*

*and then some shithead goes personal on you.
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Old 08-08-2016, 05:37 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Coming from the film composing side, and just starting to get my feet wet here, I think it comes down to this for me.

1) Stability. Yes, some of these scripts are extremely useful and give much needed functionality. However, scripts just like Reaper have bugs and need troubleshooting. I've been going through the forums as much as I can and logging every script I think would be useful in my daily workflow. I think I'm up to about 30 scripts I've logged so far and I haven't got that far. So, how is stability affected when I'm running 30 add on scripts from different developers with a huge track count? How do I troubleshoot if there is a conflict? Because a script has a desired add-on functionality doesn't mean it's going to play nice when you run a ton of scripts (which it looks like you currently need to do). And scripts are also going to break occasionally with Reaper updates as well.
Reaper tends to maintain backwards compatibility well. There are script API functions that have been depricated, but they still work.

Also, most scripts do an action for a specified time (while mouse button down or something like that). I'm sure some run continuously, but not many. That being said, performance will be impacted by the breadth of action (how many takes, how many CC events, etc.) and not the count of scripts.

There are buggy and inefficient scripts. Simple answer, if a script is buggy or inefficient, tell the developer (politely) and don't use it while you have issues.

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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
2) Overall Workflow. Ok, so I've got all these awesome scripts - and I'm not being sarcastic, there are some really great scripts. Now, in addition to Reaper updates I've got to pay attention to 30 some scripts and install new versions when available. Or contact people when scripts break with a new Reaper version. I know there's utilities like ReaPack which make this easier, but it's still a lot to deal with. I've got to get all these scripts into my current template, make sure they are current and updated and then tie them into my daily workflow. That's a lot of time being taken away from writing cues.
Who says you have to upgrade your script? Like I said above, Reaper might depricate functions, but that doesn't mean they will stop working. ReaPack does make it easier, but only upgrade if you think you need to.

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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
3) Elegance. So, especially the film world where deadlines are just ridiculous (and getting worse every year it seems) solutions need to be elegant. Just because the functionality exists with an add-on script doesn't necessarily make it elegant. It sometimes just makes it exactly that - something that has been added on top of an existing paradigm. If it's not elegant and easy to use, it's going to cut into the amount of minutes I can put up a day. And if I'm not putting up my minutes I'm sunk (or fired). So, it seems to me a lot of these scripts which are really good ideas and provide really good functionality should be looked at closely by the developers to incorporate directly into the program. I'm sure there's easily 10-20 great midi scripts that everyone loves or we could vote on that would benefit all users by becoming a part of the Reaper code. In terms of making deadlines, simple and elegant always wins. That's not to say there's anything wrong with using a lot of great scripts. I would just rather see more basic midi editing functionality part of the program itself.
I agree. I wish these features were native. But they're not. Yet, you can achieve the same result with user scripts.
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Old 08-08-2016, 06:08 PM   #43
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I have to agree with Klangfarben's second point -- I can think of a few examples of good scripts broken by new versions and no update. This and similar issues around depending on some random guy out there, with no structural accountability to do so, to keep things up to spec as new versions of Reaper come out.

For e.g., I love the S&M extensions (just using them as random example), I'm pretty sure the guy's committed, but what if he isn't, abandons them, nobody donating, nobody as competent or interested picks up the project, a few Reaper versions later, they don't work as well or at all... could weave scenarios all day, I'm sure ppl get the point. It's a problem.

The obvious objection: well, learn to code, do it yourself, and I think it's a fair counter. I work in mySQL and PHP (day job), haven't got around to picking up ReaScript, but I will. The same problem of abandonware, buggy code by hobbyists, etc, exist in free VST world, also. The point is, if I was producing music as a sole source of income and had deadlines as Klangfarben and others describe... I don't think I'd be comfortable using Reaper until I was sure I had the Reaper coding chops to back it up. I can understand pro composers' hesitation over Reaper if they aren't also a competent coder.

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Old 08-08-2016, 06:20 PM   #44
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Or, instead of doing your own programming, keep a version of Reaper that runs the scripts you need. That's not ideal, but it is a solution.
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Old 08-08-2016, 06:24 PM   #45
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I wouldn't want to do advanced ensemble mockups in Reaper regardless of genre, even with my rather script-ized customization. As said, Cubase is much more efficient and coherent with that. Stopping to do those big ensemble mockup jobs with huge sample libs, was one of the reasons that enabled me to move from Cubase to Reaper. First thing I tried in 2004 was to program all original parts of the original Superman theme with VSL Orch Cube on a single system (Cubase). Took me 4 days just to get all the MIDI instructions down correctly, only to discover many samples doesn't sound like intended when played straight out of Kontakt. Serious adaptation was needed, to make each note sound right. Automation, keyswitching and MIDI CC controllers galore, serious MIDI hacking, EQ, pan, hundres of dynamic tempo changes, dynamics, constant freezing and unfreezing to manage ram usage, and the devil and his ugly mom. I'm glad I don't have to do those things no more, and certainly not in Reaper.
Though Cubase isn't the most stable solution under high workloads on CPU and memory. Certainly recommend you look into playing back sounds off of other boxes, also known as sample farming.
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Old 08-08-2016, 06:30 PM   #46
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Or, instead of doing your own programming, keep a version of Reaper that runs the scripts you need. That's not ideal, but it is a solution.
Fair enough, still though, if I was a full-time guy (I'm just a weekend guy and probably want to stay that way), I'd look at something like Cubase where everything's in-the-box and updated as a suite and supported and probably feel more comfortable with that. I mean, if I was scoring for Spielberg kind of thing. Indie film, f*ck it, use Reaper.

But, I do use Reaper for huge projects, often including big Kontakt setups, and I've never encountered a serious problem, so that has to be emphasized. It was a pleasure to customize it just as I like it over several months, but would I have the time for that scoring E.T. 2?

When it comes down to it, Steinberg could be bought by whoeverthehell and Cubase could be turned into some godawful subscription cloud service bloody thing that everyone hates, and the Reaper community will very likely continue to provide useful scripts, for as long as everyone remains interested anyway.

The Reaper devs should take the best scripts under their wing, integrate them and include them in update cycles, but really, they have enough problems I imagine.
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Old 08-08-2016, 07:41 PM   #47
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Fair enough, still though, if I was a full-time guy (I'm just a weekend guy and probably want to stay that way), I'd look at something like Cubase where everything's in-the-box and updated as a suite and supported and probably feel more comfortable with that. I mean, if I was scoring for Spielberg kind of thing. Indie film, f*ck it, use Reaper.

But, I do use Reaper for huge projects, often including big Kontakt setups, and I've never encountered a serious problem, so that has to be emphasized. It was a pleasure to customize it just as I like it over several months, but would I have the time for that scoring E.T. 2?

When it comes down to it, Steinberg could be bought by whoeverthehell and Cubase could be turned into some godawful subscription cloud service bloody thing that everyone hates, and the Reaper community will very likely continue to provide useful scripts, for as long as everyone remains interested anyway.

The Reaper devs should take the best scripts under their wing, integrate them and include them in update cycles, but really, they have enough problems I imagine.
Spielberg's film you would get away with reaper too. One, it's usually just orchestral ensembles (John Williams is composing on 5 sections note sheet), two, you'd have professional orchestrator and three they are recorded by orchestra later anyway.
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Old 01-04-2017, 06:43 AM   #48
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Two examples of orchestral mockups by jacad79, in REAPER:




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Old 02-08-2017, 04:36 PM   #49
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One of my favourites is to use my voice or a real instrument (such as trombone, on a horn section (or also works well on strings)) to control velocity and high frequencies of a MIDI part. Adds so much life to sustained notes.
Have you elaborated on this somewhere? Or, would you do so in a new thread? Or, could I get a PM about how you accomplish this? Appreciated.
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Old 02-08-2017, 04:43 PM   #50
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Two examples of orchestral mockups by jacad79
For those of us what don't know, what's a 'mockup'? I guess I should know this, but I'd like the informed definition.

Thanks.
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Old 02-08-2017, 05:18 PM   #51
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For those of us what don't know, what's a 'mockup'? I guess I should know this, but I'd like the informed definition.
From my understanding, it's basically a midi interpretation of a song or composition. It can actually be an interpretation of just about anything, something from Bach, to something that is your own composition.
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Old 02-08-2017, 07:10 PM   #52
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For those of us what don't know, what's a 'mockup'? I guess I should know this, but I'd like the informed definition.

Thanks.
A midi "Mockup" typically refers to creating a realistic orchestral/symphonic composition strictly with midi and virtual instruments. -No live players or instruments.

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Old 02-08-2017, 08:05 PM   #53
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Two examples of orchestral mockups by jacad79, in REAPER:




Really excellent ... by Jacob Andrew Cadmus, see imdb credits below. Shows how powerful Reaper is, and what talent he has.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4721603/

A midi mockup is a midi production of an orchestral piece of music, mostly for film music nowadays. "Mockup" means it is "imitation", to be followed by a real live orchestra recording. Though that rarely happens these days. If the midi mockup is a good as this, who can tell the difference? Why bother paying for a real orchestra.
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:42 AM   #54
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what Klangfarben said. I had high hopes of migrating my orchestra template to Reaper but unfortunately I think I've abandoned that idea (600+tracks 3 slave machines). If you need to work fast you will need to spend countless amounts of time learning and customizing Reaper to do what Cubase/Nuendo does right out of the box - certainly not intuitive or even practical when writing or working with deadlines. I also do a lot of session work. While the take feature seems to work for what some people do - and it's very impressive and comprehensive in what it can do... It doesn't seem tailored for people who need the record/edit/comp process to be super quick and relatively transparent. Just about everything else I've tried in Reaper seems to be superior - although I have only gotten so far. It's a brilliantly designed program that can be customized to do practically anything but that "all in one" mindset seems to come at a cost. Huge learning and customization curves to adapt to certain workflows. Even after all that it seems you still need brain time being a Reaper operator and that can take your mind and focus away from composing/performing. All that being said I think it's still the best designed DAW available but the things I mentioned above have prevented me from switching.
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