Envelope Points destroyed when copy/pasting? (FIXED)

[ferropop]

Hi all, made a capture of what's going on.

Notice the shape duplicates properly when tied to an empty clip.

[richie43]

If the points don't have an audio clip associated to it, then when you did the time selection, nothing is copied to be pasted. If you want to copy envelope points with no item associated with it, right click above the points in the time selection, choose to select points, then click where you want to paste and paste them. To me, this behavior makes sense (and is why it works when there is an item associate withe he points)
I am sure you could design a custom action to do the steps I just described if it feels cumbersome.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by richie43

If the points don't have an audio clip associated to it, then when you did the time selection, nothing is copied to be pasted. If you want to copy envelope points with no item associated with it, right click above the points in the time selection, choose to select points, then click where you want to paste and paste them. To me, this behavior makes sense (and is why it works when there is an item associate withe he points)
I am sure you could design a custom action to do the steps I just described if it feels cumbersome.

Hi, thanks for the reply but I don't quite get what you mean. I'm not doing a time selection, just copying the points then hitting paste. What's happening is the low point is replacing the high point when hitting paste because they're in the same place - but when doing it with an associated clip it's intelligently creating edge points (a bug/feature I submitted last year that they then fixed) so that the previous point isn't getting destroyed.

Any of the EDM/automation-heavy DAWs (Ableton/BitWig/FL) do this properly because this shape-based automation stuff is literally the most common way to work. Also they have automation clips

[richie43]

Maybe you have something configured in your preferences differently...I don't know. Or it's just that Reaper works differently. I can achieve what you are wanting by selecting a time selection, copy points in time selection, then paste. Making a custom action for it using SWS makes it exactly what you need. Reaper is Reaper, sometimes a different DAW will do what you want but with different steps.

[serr]

Originally Posted by richie43

If the points don't have an audio clip associated to it, then when you did the time selection, nothing is copied to be pasted. If you want to copy envelope points with no item associated with it, right click above the points in the time selection, choose to select points, then click where you want to paste and paste them. To me, this behavior makes sense (and is why it works when there is an item associate withe he points)
I am sure you could design a custom action to do the steps I just described if it feels cumbersome.

That's correct.

The default of tying envelopes to the item when copying is why it copied the envelopes with the item pastes in the video.

To copy just the envelope, you simply need to select it first. (Or alter preferences for other options.) This follows the Reaper workflow of 'selected things do the thing'.

(I'm assuming that's the lane from the same track set to display as a separate track there for clarity in the video and not a 2nd track. Vs the setting that overlays envelopes over the audio.)

[noise_construct]

Bug confirmed. Wrong forum section though.

[xpander]

This is the way Reaper works in this case. No two envelope points can exist in exactly the same position in timeline, even while they may look like they do. So now that you have copied those two points and are pasting starting exactly from the position of the latter point, the first copied point will replace that one. Which means that your previous high point will now be the low point (zero value) and the second copied point is the new high value point.

The obvious way to make this work like intended is to first actually create the whole envelope shape you want to paste by making three points instead of just two, then copy/paste that. Replacing the third point when pasting doesn't matter in that case since it will be the same value as the first, the shape is preserved.

Another thing would be to offset the starting position of the paste action but this would be a hassle. Adding edge points works for the items but that wouldn't work here since there are no definite borders where they would be created. Unless they would be some kind of offset points created just outside the current selection?

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by JamesPeters

That's why I didn't notice this at first. I was used to having start/end points for what I was copying/pasting such that it couldn't do this.

I have no problem with it the way it currently is.

Originally Posted by xpander

The obvious way to make this work like intended is to first actually create the whole envelope shape you want to paste by making three points instead of just two, then copy/paste that. Replacing the third point when pasting doesn't matter in that case since it will be the same value as the first, the shape is preserved.

...guys I tried everything before posting this initially. It doesn't work, look:

[karbomusic]

When you copy what if you only select the last two points and not the first when using 3 points. Actually that works but we need the 1st one for the slope.

[FnA]

Snapping has been a more difficult situation than otherwise for a long time I think. In order to make this work I had to move the peak point back, drop it, then move it back forward. Then paste points on top of themselves, or else something like your gif happens to first paste.







EDIT. Nevermind. Somehow an extra point got in there. Could not see it until zoomed way way in. Managed to paste 3 points if I turn off snap and shift peak point back a hair (zoomed in max.) I think 2 points might work if time selection copy was used in that way.

[xpander]

Originally Posted by ferropop

...guys I tried everything before posting this initially. It doesn't work, look:

Ferropop, I apologize for giving maybe a too plain explanation earlier because this actually does't work that simple always. Even while being an unusual way and shape to copy for me, for some reason yesterday I succeeded in that simple 3-point drawing & copy/pasting just like that. Today I didn't. Further tests revealed one way which seems to work at least on my end. What I found out is similar to what FnA said earlier.

After making the 3-point envelope shape, I have to move either the 2nd point back and forward or the 3rd one forward and back just a tiny bit. After that I can copy all three points and paste the shape and it usually works. However, only moving both 2nd and 3rd points a little before copying/pasting seems to be a sure way to succeed every single time. Not quite right, this.

[ferropop]

Thanks for the responses - we can beat around this forever, or I can just demonstrate exactly how this should work...



...notice you can even copy a Segment of a curve and it'll paste it perfectly, inserting edgepoints flawlessly.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Thanks for the responses - we can beat around this forever, or I can just demonstrate exactly how this should work...

Many responses were about how to get it to work so you can do your work, not how it should work. If what they are proposing works but you think it should work differently then you need to file a formal bug and if not confirmed as bug then file a feature request etc. In that respect, this thread has probably served its usefulness.

[mpl]

Maybe here should be a workaround which paste envelope with only first point 1 sample forward (to prevent further overwriting).

[ferropop]

Well I'll post as a feature request, any support would be appreciated. This kind of automation stuff will draw in anyone doing electronic music production. More licenses sold = happier devs = better and better Reaper.

Really all that needs to happen is the addition of a "Paste envelope points (preserving edges)" action. Reaper just needs to ensure that the points surrounding the paste stay intact, which I really can't see being a tough programming job. The fun begins if you were to paste in the middle of a spline curve, but Ableton handles it perfectly so it's definitely doable.

Does that sound like a reasonable wording for a FR guys?

[mpl]

ReaPack/mpl_Duplicate envelope points
Logic: simply duplicate envelope points (NOT bar/beat relative). If new point inserted on the same position as old point - move old point 1 sample back.

[xpander]

Good script as usual, thanks Michael. Nice extra that it starts from the last selected point no matter where the cursor is. I wouldn't necessarily use this starting from the middle of any envelope though if there are any existing envelope shapes later on. Since the script seems to add to the old points, the combined shapes may get pretty...creative

Easy enough to delete older points ahead manually where needed, just something to remember when using it.

[Justin]

Improvements to the behavior in question will come in the 5.25 pre-release series (starting next week)

[JamesPeters]

It warms the Cockos of my heart knowing that this conversation went in a constructive direction, and with enough specific information that Justin could act on it.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by JamesPeters

It warms the Cockos of my heart knowing that this conversation went in a constructive direction, and with enough specific information that Justin could act on it.

I agree, I love this product so much. The devs listen, they really care about making what the people want and will use!

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by xpander

This is the way Reaper works in this case. No two envelope points can exist in exactly the same position in timeline, even while they may look like they do.

This was the case a few years ago, as Justin himself confirmed in an issue tracker: Envelope points do not align vertically.

Has this limitation perhaps been removed in recent versions? When I zoom in close on two points that I have manually moved into the same time position, or when I use ReaScript to insert multiple points at the same time position, they seem to align perfectly at that exact position.

In the tempo map, unfortunately, the limitation certainly does remain, which leads to buggy behavior similar to this thread:
* Tempo map: Cannot insert two envelope points at same time point
* Time signature bug when moving Regions

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by juliansader

This was the case a few years ago, as Justin himself confirmed in an issue tracker: Envelope points do not align vertically.

Has this limitation perhaps been removed in recent versions? When I zoom in close on two points that I have manually moved into the same time position, or when I use ReaScript to insert multiple points at the same time position, they seem to align perfectly at that exact position.

In the tempo map, unfortunately, the limitation certainly does remain, which leads to buggy behavior similar to this thread:
* Tempo map: Cannot insert two envelope points at same time point
* Time signature bug when moving Regions

I can see how this would be an unresolvable issue - because which point is 'correct'? If one point is at 0 and the other at 100 at that instant in time, it can't be both at the same time, but then which is it?

One compromise I could see: if two points are drawn at the same location, it could internally shift one one-sample backwards and the other one-sample forwards and create a fast ramp between the two?

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by ferropop

I can see how this would be an unresolvable issue - because which point is 'correct'? If one point is at 0 and the other at 100 at that instant in time, it can't be both at the same time, but then which is it?

One compromise I could see: if two points are drawn at the same location, it could internally shift one one-sample backwards and the other one-sample forwards and create a fast ramp between the two?

In most envelopes (the only exception that I know of being the tempo map), REAPER handles this elegantly: The point that is inserted first represents the end value of the preceding curve, and the point that is inserted last represents the starting value for the next curve.

(Using a script to evaluate the envelope value at a given time position returns the value of the last inserted point.)

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by ferropop

I agree, I love this product so much. The devs listen, they really care about making what the people want and will use!

You love a product? Cringe.

Only in reaperworld people get so warm and fuzzy when the devs finally get around to fixing a bug after randomly reading a forum post- a bug that would have never left their hands if they bothered to test their software. I guess any company would be thrilled to have suckers like you as customers.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

You love a product? Cringe.

Only in reaperworld people get so warm and fuzzy when the devs finally get around to fixing a bug after randomly reading a forum post- a bug that would have never left their hands if they bothered to test their software. I guess any company would be thrilled to have suckers like you as customers.

Man you're right, that $60 for the most versatile DAW around is bleeding me dry for life.

[ivansc]

*yawn* Gentle reminder - if you quote people, they show up in the thread even when on someones ignore list.
N_C`s relentless whining got him on MY ignore list a long time ago, so PLEASE dont feed the troll in public.