Incorrect note lengths after MIDI import

[lolilol1975]

When importing MIDI files like this one

http://www.midiworld.com/midis/other/bach/erbarme.mid

(from http://www.midiworld.com/bach.htm)

on some tracks, there are clear mistakes in note lengths and some notes never stop playing.

I don't know if the file is incorrect or if it's the import function that has a bug, but when looking at the notes in the MIDI editor, it's clear the note is going way past it should be, sometimes until the end of the track.

Interestingly, these notes are invisible in the main window.



So I'm reporting this as a bug, but if it's the MIDI file that isn't correct, please ignore this.

[lolilol1975]

Maybe this is the same as http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=180811

[Justin]

Thanks, fixing! (this was a bug introduced with the score editing support, I believe)

[ELP]

REAPER has clear a bug at import MIDI files which contain overlapping Notes/events..
At your image example
the upper Note Nr.77 & lower Note Nr.68 contain overlapping events,
which REAPER do not import correctly

Confirmed..!

-----
And your example files contain a lot of overlapping events, which REAPER complete import wrong
the Note Nr 77 at 17.1.0 is normally only 0.9:188 long, but REAPER import the previsions overlapping both wrong, so it ends up that the Note is not 0.9.188, it is as long as the next Note ON Nr. 77 is starting

..


Normally at one Piano roll the Note Nr. 77 line should look like this..


EDIT...

Oh Justin commenting this already...didn´t saw this

[lolilol1975]

Originally Posted by Justin

Thanks, fixing! (this was a bug introduced with the score editing support, I believe)

56 mn after my report ! How slow is that... NOT !

You're awesome, Justin !

[tusitala]

Hi, this is what i found out today, importing a midi file created in Sibelius, then imported in Logic to work on, and now exported to Reaper:

those low D#3 Should all be equal, but except for the first one the following are almost invisible.


Is this related to this bug report?


thanks a lot in advance

all the best

[ELP]

Please, attach the/your MIDI File exported from Sib/Logic to import into REAPER

[tusitala]

here it is, thanks

[ELP]

it is not a REAPER bug !
.. these MIDI File contains a lot of(multible) Note ON|OFF events:
Same Note pitch|same channel|and the problem is:
with exactly the same ON|Off event time|beat positions.

This has nothing to do with overlapping Note ON to OFF events, these are simply multible.., unnecessary "bug", events within this file

The same Note pitch|same channel with exactly the same time position is simply corrupt/not possible.

I filter out the CC from the easy readable ASCII example(result from your file)
so you can better see, whats the problem is..


Maybe REAPER could filter out those multi events(same position/event) at import- I personally think it is better REAPER do not^^,

but as I said if this is a edit/export file from Sib/Logic

"tusitala: midi file created in Sibelius, then imported in Logic to work on, and now exported to Reaper:"

then this multible event thing is happen, of course, in Sib & or logic
It is a Sib/logic bug
.... and not a bug within REAPER..

EDIT:
I bet logic/sib mixed here different source Tracks
(which include events with the same channel-
here it is only ch1)
without to check things during export to MIDI Format 0..

If your source is at different tracks, export the same as Format 1 again..
Or with FORMAT 0 make sure that you use different channels for the same pitch/events|same position, before exporting to format 0

I know that many younger, only plugin, User do not really care about different channels
All events = always the same edit channel: ch1^^

[tusitala]

thanks ELP...but if i open the same midi file with Digital Performer it displays and plays back correctly.

And even if it was Sibelius' fault i still have to work with exporting Sibelius' midi files, and other daws open them consistently...

so something must happen when importing them inside Reaper...not saying that it''s Reaper's fault but i have to find a workaround to that

[tusitala]

Originally Posted by ELP

it is not a REAPER bug !
.. these MIDI File contains a lot of(multible) Note ON|OFF events:
Same Note pitch|same channel|and the problem is:
with exactly the same ON|Off event time|beat positions.

This has nothing to do with overlapping Note ON to OFF events, these are simply multible.., unnecessary "bug", events within this file

The same Note pitch|same channel with exactly the same time position is simply corrupt/not possible.

I filter out the CC from the easy readable ASCII example(result from your file)
so you can better see, whats the problem is..


Maybe REAPER could filter out those multi events(same position/event) at import- I personally think it is better REAPER do not^^,

but as I said if this is a edit/export file from Sib/Logic

"tusitala: midi file created in Sibelius, then imported in Logic to work on, and now exported to Reaper:"

then this multible event thing is happen, of course, in Sib & or logic
It is a Sib/logic bug
.... and not a bug within REAPER..

EDIT:
I bet logic/sib mixed here different source Tracks
(which include events with the same channel-
here it is only ch1)
without to check things during export to MIDI Format 0..

If your source is at different tracks, export the same as Format 1 again..
Or with FORMAT 0 make sure that you use different channels for the same pitch/events|same position, before exporting to format 0

I know that many younger, only plugin, User do not really care about different channels
All events = always the same edit channel: ch1^^

thanks again, i'm not sure i have the knowledge to fully understand this but i'll look into that

[tusitala]

Dear all,

do you know if this "bug" or "behaviour" is being investigated?

I'm working with midi exported from other programs and what gets displayed correctly elsewhere is messy in Reaper.


ELP suggested that it's not a Reaper bug but the midi file itself containing weird informations, but the fact is that i have to work with what i have and would really like to move all my work to Reaper, and to do so i have to use midi files created in other programs...


here's an example...it's the same midi part displayed by Logic, DP, and then Reaper






any ideas?

thanks!

-t

[tusitala]

Hi, could this BUG not be counted as "FIXED" as the title says but be worked on?

Thanks a lot in advance

-t

[tusitala]

I also found another thing that I believe is related:

on imported midi files sometimes these adjacent notes do not trigger their respective instruments, so for example on 3 fast note repetitions only the first one plays back.

[EvilDragon]

There's an action in Reaper's MIDI editor action list to remove duplicate events, so I recommend you to do that after loading the MIDI file you have problems with. See if that helps.

[schwa]

Could you post the file that is giving you problems? The attachment in post #8 above seems to display properly in REAPER, so I think the screenshot in post #12 is a different file.

[tusitala]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

There's an action in Reaper's MIDI editor action list to remove duplicate events, so I recommend you to do that after loading the MIDI file you have problems with. See if that helps.

Thanks EvilDragon, I will try that

EDIT: I tried selecting all the notes in my midi editor and then run "Remove selected duplicate events" but nothing changes...is that you were talking about?

[tusitala]

Originally Posted by schwa

Could you post the file that is giving you problems? The attachment in post #8 above seems to display properly in REAPER, so I think the screenshot in post #12 is a different file.

Thanks Schwa,
The file in post #12 is different from the one in post #8.

but the screenshots in post #12 are the same exact midi file opened in Logic, DP, and Reaper.

I'll send you the midi file, let me look for it.

[tusitala]

Here's the simple MIDI file:


I just tried again, what happens is exactly what's shown in the screenshots.

DP and Logic show it correctly, Reaper changes the length of some notes, and this the affect the playback as well.


Thanks for your help!

-t

[tusitala]

As an update/additional test:

I tried exporting the wrongly displayed midi file from Reaper, and tried opening this new one in Logic, here's what happened:


[url=https://postimg.org/image/t0g9ieqvn/]


So it's as if Reaper "added" this longer notes to the file after opening it...

[schwa]

Thanks. This file does contain many overlapping and duplicate note events. It seems to import as expected here if I enable the MIDI editor option "automatically correct overlapping notes" *before* importing the .mid file. Does that work for you?

(the option is global, so once you enable it, it should stay on for all projects)

[tusitala]

Originally Posted by schwa

Thanks. This file does contain many overlapping and duplicate note events. It seems to import as expected here if I enable the MIDI editor option "automatically correct overlapping notes" *before* importing the .mid file. Does that work for you?

(the option is global, so once you enable it, it should stay on for all projects)

Hi Schwa, I didn't know about this option, now I tried and this is what happens to that same midi file:

[url=https://postimg.org/image/oh40wngn7/]


The long notes have been shortened but now some notes are shorter than they are meant to be...look at measure 44.3 where there's now an almost invisible note, whereas if you look at the original Logic or DP screenshot the note was written as a much longer one.

And in fact if i play it back now, this snare part sounds wrong unfortunately.

[EvilDragon]

DAWs shouldn't be able to create duplicate note events anyways... those that do are broken

[tusitala]

I agree!, maybe the problem is even before in the original Sibelius file that i imported in Logic...

but at least Logic and DP are "wrong" consistently and allow to playback the part correctly, while Reaper does not at the moment thus making it hard to transfer previous projects to it to work on...

and tbh I feel Reaper's behaviour is a little strange anyway as somehow it doesn't allow to work with imported midi material, do you agree?

thanks again for your help!

[schwa]

Well, the issue is specifically how to deal with importing corrupted MIDI data, not just imported MIDI in general. I know you are just trying to get stuff to work, but it is challenging to deal with data like this.

With "automatically correct overlapping notes" disabled (before import), does the MIDI file play back as expected, despite the odd display in the piano roll?

[tusitala]

no, as i said before, because some notes are so long that they sound different or somehow they are too close, so that for example in a fast repetition of 3 notes in a row, only the first one gets triggered...

i understand that the file is "corrupted" as you see it but this workflow is I believe quite standard or nothing so abstract, so it should work in my opinion.

what i did is just: Sibelius ---> Logic ---> Reaper

i don't know how a file get's corrupted, i don't have this kind of knoweledge


thanks again for your help

[EvilDragon]

Try to just export from Sibelius and load that into Reaper, without Logic in the middle. If the file still doesn't load right, at least you know who's corrupting things.

[ELP]

could it be that you maybe work within "Sib and or logic" at different tracks without the attention at the used midi channels and at the end export your complete project track(s) to
midi file(s) as format 0?

[tusitala]

Originally Posted by ELP

could it be that you maybe work within "Sib and or logic" at different tracks without the attention at the used midi channels and at the end export your complete project track(s) to
midi file(s) as format 0?

Hi ELP,

no, as I imported from Sibelius to Logic and then heavily worked on the tracks to create a mockup, so I rewrote a lot of thing, replayed them etc etc.
I usually pay attention to which channels I'm working on as i put different articulations on different midi channels and i'm generally quite tidy in how i organise my template.

I believe Logic does not ask which type of midi file format you want to export, it just goes "Export selection as midi file" and that's it...

[schwa]

Originally Posted by tusitala

no, as i said before, because some notes are so long that they sound different or somehow they are too close, so that for example in a fast repetition of 3 notes in a row, only the first one gets triggered...

i understand that the file is "corrupted" as you see it but this workflow is I believe quite standard or nothing so abstract, so it should work in my opinion.

what i did is just: Sibelius ---> Logic ---> Reaper

i don't know how a file get's corrupted, i don't have this kind of knoweledge


thanks again for your help

I am fairly sure that REAPER is playing back the MIDI exactly as it exists in the file, bad data and all. If you just import the MIDI and don't even open the MIDI editor, REAPER is hardly touching the MIDI, just loading it in and playing it back, with the double note-ons and whatever exactly as they exist in the file.

Once the piano roll is opened and edits are made, REAPER has to make some assumptions about how to interpret the bad data. Currently REAPER may be trying too hard to make sense of the data, trying to make overlapping notes out of the double messages (since REAPER allows you to create overlapping notes during edits). We'll try adding some changes to the next REAPER build to interpret corrupted data like this more simply, just ignoring double messages completely.

That may help with display and editing, but it won't affect the situation where the MIDI is just imported and played back without the editor even being opened.

[ELP]

yes I know Logic export only single regions as format 0 and multi regions automatically as format 1, but I am quite sure that there was a Fauxpas within 9xx or 10 xx(I don´t know exactly anymore and at the moment I can´t test this if it is still happen within 10.2.4 ) with Join and or Glue multible regions to a single region.
I only asking about that, because your event content "non and duplicated events" within your above MIDI example are simply all at ch1(0).

But ok. Something for Logic...

" just ignoring double messages" ^^

[lolilol1975]

Originally Posted by schwa

I am fairly sure that REAPER is playing back the MIDI exactly as it exists in the file, bad data and all. If you just import the MIDI and don't even open the MIDI editor, REAPER is hardly touching the MIDI, just loading it in and playing it back, with the double note-ons and whatever exactly as they exist in the file.

Once the piano roll is opened and edits are made, REAPER has to make some assumptions about how to interpret the bad data. Currently REAPER may be trying too hard to make sense of the data, trying to make overlapping notes out of the double messages (since REAPER allows you to create overlapping notes during edits). We'll try adding some changes to the next REAPER build to interpret corrupted data like this more simply, just ignoring double messages completely.

That may help with display and editing, but it won't affect the situation where the MIDI is just imported and played back without the editor even being opened.

Maybe what Reaper could is warn the user that there are overlapping/corrup MIDI notes and offer a way to display the overlapping notes in the MIDI editor maybe in another color or hatched or with an icon over it or any other visual clue. This would help correcting the MIDI data by hand.

[MikeKravets]

Originally Posted by lolilol1975

Maybe what Reaper could is warn the user that there are overlapping/corrup MIDI notes and offer a way to display the overlapping notes in the MIDI editor maybe in another color or hatched or with an icon over it or any other visual clue. This would help correcting the MIDI data by hand.

That's exactly what I wanted to write before read your message
Had the same problem with midi exported from studio one. Guy made a lot of overlapping notes, so I just made them shorter - fixed, thanks ELP for the advice

But now I feel uncomfortable - how to fix those issues in future ? At least open them in studio one to check first .. unless it's no warning messages from Reaper.

Interest, that Reaper even do not allow to make overlaps, I'm trying, but it just trim the end of previous note. So does it mean, that Reaper work with some older midi protocol, or what ? .. That's the only explanation I can imagine.