gradual tempo changes: gridline display/snapping and envelope pasting issues

[mccrabney]

composing electronic instrumental music. i'll build the song in its entirety, then go back throughout the different sections and add tempo changes to help build/reduce song intensity. it's mostly great.

however, envelopes do not seem to account for tempo changes when they are copied and pasted to another area. see here. a volume envelope is copied from an earlier section and pasted on a later section. each section has its own distinct tempo changes. the relative distance between the envelope activity is not preserved, and it appears that the literal post-tempo change timing of the envelope is preserved instead.

in this gif, the copied volume envelope "fits" the item perfectly below. when it is pasted, it is pushed later. (the huge midi item behind the audio items serves as a kind of "automation item" for catching envelope points with "move env with items" selected -- ignore it. the same thing happens when i copy envelopes in that fashion)



(aside from the tempo issue, i'm finding that i cannot trust "move envelope with items" and that i have to triple check any time i copy large swathes of my project to confirm that the envelope actually copied as intended. but this should be its own thread, and would be resolved with track automation items that don't extend past the actual item. would have been useful in the above licecap, that's for certain)

2nd issue, i've been finding that grid/snap lines become screwed up with gradual tempo change markers (everything was fine before putting them in). more testing is needed here, as upon re-opening the project, i'm not seeing the same strange behavior. unfortunately it's not something i do often, probably only in 1 session per dozen, but i'll keep an eye on it.

[FnA]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

...however, envelopes do not seem to account for tempo changes when they are copied and pasted to another area...

Rather easy to confirm. This beats timebase vs tempo changes situation is bad! I can't believe the lack of attention.



Points within time selection were copied with "Smart Copy" and pasted at the tempo change.

[mccrabney]

to be fair, tempo changes in conjunction with envelope movements could be considered "advanced" usage (though certainly not edge case esp for electronic genres) and thus simply haven't been tested enough.

the entire issue does highlight the need for automation items. there is no sense having an envelope be visible\editable fit the entire duration of the project when it only is active for ~n seconds. makes for a cluttered workflow and increases the likelihood of user error.

thanks for confirming!

[Justin]

Fixing at least some of this

[FnA]

Posted this in pre forum. Hoping some other glitches will get squared up too

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by vitalker

v5.29pre2 - November 12 2016
+ Automation: obey timebase when moving multiple envelope points [t=182703]
+ Automation: obey timebase when pasting multiple envelope points [t=182703]

With a quick test, it appears that what I posted in post #2 in [this] thread is working properly. (lots of other nice stuff lately too)

I tried to reproduce "Region Move/Copy Bug 1" (in my sig) with pre 2 as well, and did not get the bad behavior. Is the tempo envelope affected by these or other recent changes? :fingers crossed:

One wrong thing I found (no idea if new) was when I moved a region into an area with a gradual tempo change. Had mouse cursor on a measure start before releasing mouse button. Region ended up in some other nearby spot. (and following project elements knocked off grid)

[Sound]

Experiencing something similar, possibly related. Note the marker around bar 84 in the attached demo file. This is happening in 5.29 in Win64, but I have experienced it in many previous versions.

Note how the midi clip just before the meter change is looped at the end. It's not supposed to be like that. In the past I have just fixed this by gluing the clip to get rid of the messed-up loop and then editing it back to be how it should, but this time it's even worse. Gluing it has no effect; the loop is still there. So I tried creating a new clip of the proper length and copying and pasting the contents from the old clip into the new. It worked until I tried to adjust the timing to get the meter change to start at the end of the previous measure (It's currently half a beat early). Then the looping reappears, and it appeared at other places further in the song. Also, there are many times when the contents of a midi clip will be shifted within the clip to be slightly off the beat one way or the other, even though the clip itself still starts in the right place.

[FnA]

Time selection copy/paste doesn't put the cursor in the right place for repeat paste on beat based envelope.



This gif taken with 5.65 rc5. 5.62 similar. Win 7 x64.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by FnA

With a quick test, it appears that what I posted in post #2 in [this] thread is working properly. (lots of other nice stuff lately too)

Track envelopes seem to adjust nicely to tempo changes when the item's timebase = beats, but not yet take envelopes:

[FnA]

There's a difference there between audio and MIDI item behavior. Brought it up here: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=206703