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Old 03-14-2018, 12:27 PM   #961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
those controls don't send any midi messages out, so we can't map them.
Well, unfortunately this means (for me) a big problem since it's like having a race car (artist Mix) and use it for the Saturday shop...
Thanks for your great work Geoff but it seams like there's not so much to do with Avid units...
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:53 PM   #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Afternoon blog:

Thinking that it will be valuable to lay out the rest of the controls like the Channels and Matrices.

For instance, the Function buttons, Assignment buttons, Modifier buttons, etc. on an MCU could belong to Groups.

Nested Groups should be possible a la:

Group MCURightButtonsArea

>Group Assignment
>Track
>Send
>...
>GroupEnd

>Group Function
>F1
>F2
>F3
>...
>GroupEnd

GroupEnd

That's the general concept...
Looks good, I already had my .rst file ordered into the "groups"

Would there be any trade offs?
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:54 PM   #963
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Well, unfortunately this means (for me) a big problem since it's like having a race car (artist Mix) and use it for the Saturday shop...
Thanks for your great work Geoff but it seams like there's not so much to do with Avid units...
Yeah, I hear ya', I've got the Avid Control, so that fills in the functionality missing on the Mixes.

At least you can go back to using the EuCon dll/dylib
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:56 PM   #964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freex View Post
Looks good, I already had my .rst file ordered into the "groups"

Would there be any trade offs?
Just a slight bit more verbose .rst file as indicated, but i think it's worth it because when we map to these devices it is often convenient to think in terms of the groupings already provided on the actual Surface.
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:11 PM   #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Just a slight bit more verbose .rst file as indicated, but i think it's worth it because when we map to these devices it is often convenient to think in terms of the groupings already provided on the actual Surface.
So would the action templates change? If so How?

Would I be able to (with the necessary templates) press "input" on the MCU and get all the inputs of channels 1-32 shown on the C4

Or maybe for Sends, get slots 1-4 of 8 tracks showing on C4.

Is that sort of thing all still viable?
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:52 PM   #966
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Originally Posted by Freex View Post
So would the action templates change? If so How?

Would I be able to (with the necessary templates) press "input" on the MCU and get all the inputs of channels 1-32 shown on the C4

Or maybe for Sends, get slots 1-4 of 8 tracks showing on C4.

Is that sort of thing all still viable?
Yes, and much much more !!
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Old 03-14-2018, 02:19 PM   #967
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Yes, and much much more !!
I should hope so lol.

They're just two that came to mind, that I would find it so incredibly useful.

I can just imagine looking at the inputs for tracking drums and being able to scan across, make sure everything is where it should be, and being able to change input, in a nano second.

I guess you could even in some way do a "layer" (I think/hope that's the right term)
For sending out monitor mixes,
So you select a send and then the display would change to show the channels attached to that send, where you could adjust the levels.

Last edited by Freex; 03-14-2018 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 03-14-2018, 03:03 PM   #968
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I should hope so lol.

They're just two that came to mind, that I would find it so incredibly useful.

I can just imagine looking at the inputs for tracking drums and being able to scan across, make sure everything is where it should be, and being able to change input, in a nano second.

I guess you could even in some way do a "layer" (I think/hope that's the right term)
For sending out monitor mixes,
So you select a send and then the display would change to show the channels attached to that send, where you could adjust the levels.
Yeah, as MixMonkey said a few posts back you can set behaviour by groups of Widgets, you can also set by individual Widgets when it makes sense.

It's starting to become a bit more clear in my addled brain, maybe a pretty picture soon.
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Old 03-14-2018, 03:09 PM   #969
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
At least you can go back to using the EuCon dll/dylib
Unfortunately that’s what I will do... good luck for your project
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Old 03-14-2018, 03:10 PM   #970
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Here The X-Touch configuration I use (remember, anything can be modified by using the Editor Software):
Code:
Layer A: 
always Midi Channel 14
Fader         1 ..  9 ->          CC   1 .. CC   9
Fader Touch   1 ..  9 ->          CC 101 .. CC 109 
Encoder       9 .. 16 ->          CC  10 .. CC  25
Encoder Push  9 .. 16 -> Note on/off C-2 ..   D#-1
Button        1 .. 39 -> Note on/off E-1 ..   F# 1
Expression Pedal      ->          CC  26
Foot Switch           ->          CC  27

Layer B: 
always Midi Channel 10
Fader         1 ..  9 ->          CC  28 .. CC  36
Fader Touch   1 ..  9 ->          CC 111 .. CC 119 
Encoder       9 .. 16 ->          CC  37 .. CC  52
Encoder Push  9 .. 16 -> Note on/off G 2 ..   A# 3
Button        1 .. 39 -> Note on/off B 3 ..   C# 7
Expression Pedal      ->          CC  26 (Channel 14)
Foot Switch           ->          CC  27 (Channel 14)

The fader and encoder enumeration is obvious 

The buttons are enumerated: 
A1 .. A8 ->  1 ..  8
B1 .. B8 ->  9 .. 16
C1 .. C8 -> 17 .. 24
D1    D2 -> 34 .. 35
E1    E2 -> 36    37
F1    F2 -> 38    39
G1 .. G9 -> 25 .. 33
G10, G11 not assignable
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Old 03-14-2018, 03:24 PM   #971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Here The X-Touch configuration I use (remember, anything can be modified by using the Editor Software):
Code:
Layer A: 
always Midi Channel 14
Fader         1 ..  9 ->          CC   1 .. CC   9
Fader Touch   1 ..  9 ->          CC 101 .. CC 109 
Encoder       9 .. 16 ->          CC  10 .. CC  25
Encoder Push  9 .. 16 -> Note on/off C-2 ..   D#-1
Button        1 .. 39 -> Note on/off E-1 ..   F# 1
Expression Pedal      ->          CC  26
Foot Switch           ->          CC  27

Layer B: 
always Midi Channel 10
Fader         1 ..  9 ->          CC  28 .. CC  36
Fader Touch   1 ..  9 ->          CC 111 .. CC 119 
Encoder       9 .. 16 ->          CC  37 .. CC  52
Encoder Push  9 .. 16 -> Note on/off G 2 ..   A# 3
Button        1 .. 39 -> Note on/off B 3 ..   C# 7
Expression Pedal      ->          CC  26 (Channel 14)
Foot Switch           ->          CC  27 (Channel 14)

The fader and encoder enumeration is obvious 

The buttons are enumerated: 
A1 .. A8 ->  1 ..  8
B1 .. B8 ->  9 .. 16
C1 .. C8 -> 17 .. 24
D1    D2 -> 34 .. 35
E1    E2 -> 36    37
F1    F2 -> 38    39
G1 .. G9 -> 25 .. 33
G10, G11 not assignable
Thanks, hex notation is even better if you can generate that easily.

For instance note on is 90 I believe.

If you have to do it manually, just run CSI with Midi In Monitor on and you will see the hex messages when you push buttons, etc.

You can use MCU.rst as a guide.
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:33 PM   #972
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Right now, the list is just a reference for your information. So you might check if the software needs to take care of some differences vs the MCP. E.g. :
- Fader and rotary moves are 7 bit CCs
- fader touches are CCs (supposedly val 0/127)
- pushes are note-on, releases are note-off (I can look up the velocity sent if you want me to)
- Foot switch is CC (supposedly val 0/127)
- layers are different CC# and note #
- layers are different Midi channels only in my setup (the factory default is channel 1 for all controls)

The definitions are as they are done and displayed by the Editor software. I am aware that the CSI files need hex notation, but as the configuration described is my personal setting (even though it's rather close to the factory default, I supposedly only modified the Midi Channel), I did not bother to translate to hex, as it's not sure anybody will use it.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 03-15-2018 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:16 AM   #973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Right now, the list is just a reference for your information. So you might check if the software needs to rake care of some differences vs the MCP. E.g,
- Fader and rotary moves are 7 bit CCs
- fader touches are CCs (supposedly val 0/127)
- pushes are note-on, releases are note-off (I can look up the velocity sent if you want me to)
- Foot switch is CC (supposedly val 0/127)
- layers are different CC# and note #
- layers are different Midi channels only in my setup (the factory default is channel 1 for all controls)

The definitions are as they are done and and displayed by the Editor software. I am aware that the CSI files need hex notation, but as the configuration described is my personal setting (even though it's rather close to the factory default, I supposedly only modified the Midi Channel), I did not bother to translate to hex, as it's not sure anybody will use it.

-Michael
My guess is It should be the factory/default settings, or there should be a discription of exactly what has been changed.
The Hex code is used through Geoff's program in all the .rst files.
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:42 AM   #974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Right now, the list is just a reference for your information. So you might check if the software needs to rake care of some differences vs the MCP. E.g,
- Fader and rotary moves are 7 bit CCs
- fader touches are CCs (supposedly val 0/127)
- pushes are note-on, releases are note-off (I can look up the velocity sent if you want me to)
- Foot switch is CC (supposedly val 0/127)
- layers are different CC# and note #
- layers are different Midi channels only in my setup (the factory default is channel 1 for all controls)

The definitions are as they are done and and displayed by the Editor software. I am aware that the CSI files need hex notation, but as the configuration described is my personal setting (even though it's rather close to the factory default, I supposedly only modified the Midi Channel), I did not bother to translate to hex, as it's not sure anybody will use it.

-Michael
Ah, cool.

Methinks I must build a midi->hex translator, oh well, add it to the to-do list...
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:47 AM   #975
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Originally Posted by Freex View Post
The Hex code is used through Geoff's program in all the .rst files.
Just curious, after having used hex for a bit now, do you agree that the midi notation (CC, pitch bend, note numbers, etc. as opposed to hex) just muddies the waters ?

Are you getting used to switches being 90, faders e0, and encoders b0 ?
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:12 AM   #976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Just curious, after having used hex for a bit now, do you agree that the midi notation (CC, pitch bend, note numbers, etc. as opposed to hex) just muddies the waters ?

Are you getting used to switches being 90, faders e0, and encoders b0 ?
I came here with a knowledge of midi notation. Which makes sense FOR NOTATION.

For this project, and thanks to you, I understand hex (well I'm getting there) and that makes the process so much more simplistic.

As you say, for CSI, HEX is the way to go, without a shadow of doubt, and the thought of having Midi notation tainting your code or the templates...I shudder to think.

In short...I agree. Lol.
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:11 AM   #977
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Hex all the way. The fact that MIDI messages are being used for another purpose renders their original status (note, controller etc) meaningless.
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:38 AM   #978
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While for myself it's no problem at all to do the files in hex format, I suppose less technical users might have a really hard tome, if the documentation and the software that comes with their Midi Controller just mentioned Midi message names and does not talk about any hex notation.

Hence it would be "nice" if instead of the three hex values that denote a messge you also could give the standard Midi notation in the files:

e.g (maybe rather newbie friendly):
B3 45 78 -> CC69(3)=120 (Meaning CC # 69 on channel 3 value 120)

or (shorter, I use something like this in the "Midi CC Table" JSFX):
CC3:69=120

Here a single expression between white spaces containing a "(" would trigger the Midi notation decoding.

Similarly you could do
ONA7(3)=10 (Note on A7, channel 3 velocity 10)
OF#B-2(3) (Zero is assumed if the third value is not given)
PS(3)=100 (Not sure what to do about the high 7 bits)
PB(3)=-2000
...
-Michael
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Old 03-15-2018, 09:41 AM   #979
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Hi,
Why reinvent the wheel? Hex is what is used in every documentation I've seen that deals with midi daw controllers. IF they include the format in the docs at all. Took me years to find the actual hui documentation.
If a user is dealing with customizing at this level, then a little hex ain't gonna hurt:-)

Awesome work Geoff. Kind of like what you wanted to do when you first got here.:-) but then you got..."sidetracked":-) Boy was I sad!
But that sent me on a learning journey..so..thanks.

BTW..the oldest thread I remember about controllers here was a guy who had a Steinberg box. He documented all the commands. JR Hughes was in that discussion I think.
Sorry for the ot.
Congratulations and many thanks!
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Old 03-15-2018, 02:07 PM   #980
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No Hex at all in the X-Touch Compact manual.

-Michael
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Old 03-16-2018, 04:12 AM   #981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
No Hex at all in the X-Touch Compact manual.

-Michael
Honestly, I couldn't tell you if the Mackie MCU, XT or C4 has any hex documentation.
Geoff, mentioned that I'd need a real surface template (.rst) mapped for it.
So that's what I did.
I downloaded a trial midi i/o program and went thru all the knobs faders switches, noting down the values.
Then made the .rst files.

It's the bit I needed to do, so MY gear could work with Geoff's design.
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Old 03-16-2018, 05:33 AM   #982
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Yep. I (being a software guy) can easily do so, as well, but I understand that CSI is supposed to be useful for not-so-tech musical people, as well....

-Michael
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Old 03-16-2018, 05:57 AM   #983
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Yep. I (being a software guy) can easily do so, as well, but I understand that CSI is supposed to be useful for not-so-tech musical people, as well....

-Michael
Right, but I fully expect there will be folks like yourself and others in this thread that will build templates, and a lot more folks that will use them.

Very much like Themes.
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Old 03-16-2018, 06:12 AM   #984
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Can't hurt having a dec/hex option tucked in somewhere somehow.
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Old 03-16-2018, 06:42 AM   #985
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Can't hurt having a dec/hex option tucked in somewhere somehow.
While I agree with the bolts and braces, pack in everything and please everyone.

Sticking with one "language" will keep everyone on the same page and allow for cross population with FX templates.
So you can modify it to your chosen controller without have to go thru hoops and loops to convert things. Even if the conversion was in the program, if I was looking at something with a CC52 in one file, how would I know it related to 34 00 7f in my .rst
If everyone is "speaking" Hex, then it's always going to make more sense.

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Old 03-16-2018, 07:24 AM   #986
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Can't hurt having a dec/hex option tucked in somewhere somehow.
Usually I would agree with that, but in this case, partly because of Les Paul's original 8 Track Ampex I guess, the surfaces tend to be arranged in 8's which maps beautifully to hex.

For instance the MCU Faders are e0, e1, e2, e3, e4, etc.

In decimal that is 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, etc., not nearly as obvious.
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:58 AM   #987
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
For instance the MCU Faders are e0, e1, e2, e3, e4, etc.

In decimal that is 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, etc., not nearly as obvious.
That is why I vote for keeping the hex-notation as it it, and allowing for optionally use longer "words" containing a Midi-code specification in place of the (3) hex numbers.

-Michael
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:28 AM   #988
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
That is why I vote for keeping the hex-notation as it it, and allowing for optionally use longer "words" containing a Midi-code specification in place of the (3) hex numbers.

-Michael
But how many optional words, codes, variations, should Geoff allow for?
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:56 PM   #989
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"Word" simply stands for a sequence of characters between white spaces starting with a letter. of course they need internal decoding. I gave some examples above.

-Michael
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Old 03-16-2018, 03:12 PM   #990
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
"Word" simply stands for a sequence of characters between white spaces starting with a letter. of course they need internal decoding. I gave some examples above.

-Michael
And yet Hex code is more straightforward than any of them.

Even to me, I'm not a programmer, and was used to midi notes and notation.

But for control surface "language" it's like saying if you play a G that makes the fader on strip 3 move. WHAT?

Just map your controls and make a real surface template. Then we are all singing the same tune.

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Old 03-16-2018, 03:46 PM   #991
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But for control surface "language" it's like saying if you play a G that makes the fader on strip 3 more. WHAT?
Well put !
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Old 03-17-2018, 12:42 AM   #992
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And yet Hex code is more straightforward than any of them.
Fully agreed, but that does not mean that alternative notation should be prevented altogether.

-Michael
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Old 03-17-2018, 12:46 AM   #993
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But for control surface "language" it's like saying if you play a G that makes the fader on strip 3 move. WHAT?
Exactly this is necessary in certain situations to successfully do the setup.

Not all Midi- interface aware devices used (by whomever) for this purpose is created exclusively (or at all) with just being a hardware surface for a "Mixing" in mind.

-Michael
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Old 03-17-2018, 01:58 AM   #994
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Fully agreed, but that does not mean that alternative notation should be prevented altogether.

-Michael
Fair enough, but I view that as a UI issue, the file format can remain hex and editor tools can translate as necessary.

The rationale behind this is as follows: -- only power/geek/nerd users -- us -- will directly edit the files, others will ned editor software anyway, so provide the translation there.
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Old 03-17-2018, 01:59 AM   #995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Exactly this is necessary in certain situations to successfully do the setup.

Not all Midi- interface aware devices used (by whomever) for this purpose is created exclusively (or at all) with just being a hardware surface for a "Mixing" in mind.

-Michael
Yes, so a midi learn function call help here a lot, once again a UI issue in my view, but point taken for sure.
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Old 03-17-2018, 02:01 AM   #996
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Morning blog:

Redesign coming along nicely, an extreme example of optimization - the 1420 track project:

Before redesign -- 17,040 Action objects instantiated.
After redesign -- 12 Action objects instantiated.
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Old 03-17-2018, 02:11 AM   #997
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Fair enough, but I view that as a UI issue, the file format can remain hex and editor tools can translate as necessary.
Yep. I just did not think that you intend to provide a UI to edit these files.

-Michael
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Old 03-17-2018, 02:16 AM   #998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Yes, so a midi learn function call help here a lot, once again a UI issue in my view, but point taken for sure.
An editor functionality provided, that is able to take hex, "human" Midi notation as might be found in the controller's documentation and directly "learn" Midi events, of course would be top notch. But nobody even requested this up till now

-Michael
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Old 03-17-2018, 02:17 AM   #999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Exactly this is necessary in certain situations to successfully do the setup.

Not all Midi- interface aware devices used (by whomever) for this purpose is created exclusively (or at all) with just being a hardware surface for a "Mixing" in mind.

-Michael
But as far as I'm aware, THIS project IS for mixing.

Is there some way you wish to use the program that notes WOULD be needed. But you are just not telling us for some reason.

I'm sure if there is a valid use that, is maybe outside of the current parameters, but is very much a viable usage. Geoff would add it to the wish list.

You seem very focused on midi note notation, I'm just curious why?
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Old 03-17-2018, 02:20 AM   #1000
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Morning blog:

Redesign coming along nicely, an extreme example of optimization - the 1420 track project:

Before redesign -- 17,040 Action objects instantiated.
After redesign -- 12 Action objects instantiated.
Wow, that's a considerable reduction, to say the least.
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