Old 02-17-2017, 04:42 PM   #1
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Default Reaper as a live Guitar Rig

I initially bought a Boss ME-80 multi-effects pedal (sounded pretty good), but ultimately dumped it as I could create better effects through VSTs and Reaper FX. I currently have a Behringer FCB1010 on order for a foot pedal, and want to use Reaper in a live setting with it.

Currently, I have a basic layout as:

Input (rec armed) sends original signal to all subtracks
MIDI Control input (rec as monitor only) sends to folder tracks for modulation of effects)
Folder(B1) - (wah effect - bypassed)
-SubTrack(B1P1) - Guitar Patch 1 (various effects for guitar sound)
-SubTrack(B1P2) - Guitar Patch 2 (other various effects for guitar sound)

...etc. etc.

I have actions for each foot pedal (example, mute B1P1, unmute B1P2), which seems to work pretty well. I'd like to hear how others have implemented a live guitar rig to see if I can optimize Reaper and my template for performance and easier foot pedal tweaking.


I know there must be a plethora of threads about layouts and logic for doing this, but I can't quite find what I'm looking for. Any links to threads or others experience is appreciated.
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Old 02-17-2017, 04:46 PM   #2
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Not quite answering your main question, but:

- Disable anything and everything you can find on your computer that isn't related to Reaper. Internet connection, virus scanner, etc... you want as little other stuff running as you can manage. Why? Because it will let you run your input/output buffers as low as possible - read: the lowest latency possible.

- Make sure you aren't using any plugins that add PDC (it'll tell you in the Performance window), since those are going to specifically add latency.
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Old 02-17-2017, 04:51 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
Not quite answering your main question, but:

- Disable anything and everything you can find on your computer that isn't related to Reaper. Internet connection, virus scanner, etc... you want as little other stuff running as you can manage. Why? Because it will let you run your input/output buffers as low as possible - read: the lowest latency possible.

- Make sure you aren't using any plugins that add PDC (it'll tell you in the Performance window), since those are going to specifically add latency.
All good points, I have taken them into consideration, especially considering I'm running it all through an 8 year old laptop (which stacked with all my effects processing per track, still only makes Reaper peak around 15% of cpu usage), while keeping a fairly low ASIO latency around 3ms.
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:14 AM   #4
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I know there must be a plethora of threads about layouts and logic for doing this, but I can't quite find what I'm looking for. Any links to threads or others experience is appreciated.
Searching for "Live" will make most of them show up.

The maker of SWS is a guitarist and added "LiveConfigs" for exactly this purpose (switching effect patches), so searching for "LiveConfigs" might be a good start as well.

I very happily do use Reaper for live playing VSTs (and VSTis) with keyboards and Breath controller (so no audio input).

In fact I did do a short test with my band's guitarist using GuitarRig with my setup. It definitively did work.

For live playing low latency is extremely important. So you need a decently powerful computer and an audio interface specified for low latency. I use an NI "Audio6" and it works really good.

Please do some tests and come back if you have specific questions.

-Michael
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Old 02-18-2017, 04:49 AM   #5
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I have a FCB1010 which I can substitute for Rig Kontrol. I have the UnO 1.0.4 firmware... http://www.fcb1010.eu I have access to the fabulous 'FCB/UnO Control Center'. Have a look at the site for more details, it gives the FCB1010 five 'stomp boxes' in the top or bottom row. I am not associated with this company.

Quote:
Stompbox mode
Through global setup, stompbox mode can be enabled or disabled.
In stompbox mode, 5 of the 10 switches are dedicated to act as 5 different stomp boxes.
These 5 stomp boxes are available for all banks, this means when switching banks (using the up/down key) the 5 stomp boxes stay available on the same 5 switches, and their ON/OFF state is still displayed.
The 5 stomp boxes are always aligned in 1 row. Through global setup, you can choose whether you use the upper row or lower row of 5 switches for the stomp boxes. The 5 remaining switches are still used to select patches, just as before.
These presets are now available in 19 banks of 5 (instead of the original 10 banks of 10).
I have ten switches and the two pedals set to a 'free' number between CC 20-31 on channel 15. My two FCB1010 pedals are on CC 30 and 31. I use a second channel to send the MIDI to the guitar channel. Two approaches, by learning the pedal, you can record the CC performance (say for wah), or record into an envelope. I prefer using envelopes.

This is a custom GTR patch for my FCB1010 Bank 1, preset 1, with most of the RK switches in place, bottom row of FCB1010 pedals configured for presets 1-5 (Program Change 1-5 in this case not CC 25-29).



Btw, did you know about this? http://www.naslada.net/knowhow/fcb10...%20Adaptor.pdf Watch out for correct neutral.

Last edited by Obicere; 02-18-2017 at 09:54 AM. Reason: Additional information
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Old 02-18-2017, 09:01 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Searching for "Live" will make most of them show up.

The maker of SWS is a guitarist and added "LiveConfigs" for exactly this purpose (switching effect patches), so searching for "LiveConfigs" might be a good start as well.

I very happily do use Reaper for live playing VSTs (and VSTis) with keyboards and Breath controller (so no audio input).

In fact I did do a short test with my band's guitarist using GuitarRig with my setup. It definitively did work.

For live playing low latency is extremely important. So you need a decently powerful computer and an audio interface specified for low latency. I use an NI "Audio6" and it works really good.

Please do some tests and come back if you have specific questions.

-Michael
The "live configs" SWS extension seems to be exactly what I've been looking for, thanks! I have a decade old EMU 0404 USB that still gives me quite low latency.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Obicere View Post
I have a FCB1010 which I can substitute for Rig Kontrol. I have the UnO 1.0.4 firmware... http://www.fcb1010.eu I have access to the fabulous 'FCB/UnO Control Center'. Have a look at the site for more details, it gives the FCB1010 five 'stomp boxes' in the top or bottom row. I am not associated with this company.



I have ten switches and the two pedals set to a 'free' number between CC 20-31 on channel 15. My two FCB1010 pedals are on CC 30 and 31. I use a second channel to send the MIDI to the guitar channel. Two approaches, by learning the pedal, you can record the CC performance (say for wah), or record into an envelope. I prefer using envelopes.

This is a custom GTR patch for my FCB1010 Bank 1, preset 1, with most of the RK switches in place, bottom row of FCB1010 pedals configured for presets 1-5 (Program Change 1-5 in this case not CC 25-29).



Btw, did you know about this? http://www.naslada.net/knowhow/fcb10...%20Adaptor.pdf Watch out for polarity.


I have checked out the mods for the FCB, including the UnO chip and the power-and-MIDI in one cable mod, I definitely may look into those in the near future! My rigs in Reaper are generally a combination of built-in Reaper effects, LePou Cab emu with impulses, and various distortion vsts etc., so I have a lot of fun tweaking to do.
Thanks for the replies all!
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:44 AM   #7
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I'm not sure that I have a lot to contribute, but I noticed that you said the MIDI track was set to monitor only. Why? Don't you want to record those messages so that playback is the same as what happened live? Or are you not really recording at all?

I've been using Reaper live for years, but mostly just run drums and synths and then amp sims for guitar and bass. I actually did put quite a bit of effort into replacing my pedalboard with FX in Reaper - actually wrote a few JS plugs to work the way some of my pedals do, worked out the feedback loop, and mapped all the buttons, knobs and faders to a Korg NanoKontrol. This was before we had MIDI Link in Parameter Modulation, so I had hacked together a set of JS plugs to connect the CCs to parameters via Parameter Link. I'm pretty sure I can pull most of those out now and just use native Linking, except that some of them do some more complex things. For example, the wah pedal bypasses just by turning its knob all the way up, and I think a couple of them are used to adjust the taper of the control.

The main thing keeping me from going all the way there is the actual physical interface. I plan to actually build a board with knobs and toggles and footswitches laid out more or less like the physical pedals, and hack the NanoKontrol to use those, but that is a big mess of a project that I keep just putting off. There is also the concern about CPU usage. The chain I had going wasn't too bad on its own, but I often have a lot of other things going on at the same time. A lot of little bits that start to add up, ya know. Especially if we're going to do the same thing for my bassist's pedalboard, I'm a little unsure that even my new(er) quad 3.9G processor will be able to keep up at decent latencies.
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:55 PM   #8
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The "live configs" SWS extension seems to be exactly what I've been looking for,
GREAT !

Reaper rocks !
-Michael
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:16 PM   #9
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Hi guys, fyi here's a 'starter/explainer template' for getting your head around sws s&m live configs - which at first is maybe daunting.

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...14&postcount=6

Hope helps.
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:22 PM   #10
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gtr rig... ummm hmmmm might want to have looky at S-Gear

https://www.scuffhamamps.com/product/s-gear

you can get the free trial to see what you think... IMHO has the best 'real' feel of them all...
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Old 02-18-2017, 02:08 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
I'm not sure that I have a lot to contribute, but I noticed that you said the MIDI track was set to monitor only. Why? Don't you want to record those messages so that playback is the same as what happened live? Or are you not really recording at all?

I've been using Reaper live for years, but mostly just run drums and synths and then amp sims for guitar and bass. I actually did put quite a bit of effort into replacing my pedalboard with FX in Reaper - actually wrote a few JS plugs to work the way some of my pedals do, worked out the feedback loop, and mapped all the buttons, knobs and faders to a Korg NanoKontrol. This was before we had MIDI Link in Parameter Modulation, so I had hacked together a set of JS plugs to connect the CCs to parameters via Parameter Link. I'm pretty sure I can pull most of those out now and just use native Linking, except that some of them do some more complex things. For example, the wah pedal bypasses just by turning its knob all the way up, and I think a couple of them are used to adjust the taper of the control.

The main thing keeping me from going all the way there is the actual physical interface. I plan to actually build a board with knobs and toggles and footswitches laid out more or less like the physical pedals, and hack the NanoKontrol to use those, but that is a big mess of a project that I keep just putting off. There is also the concern about CPU usage. The chain I had going wasn't too bad on its own, but I often have a lot of other things going on at the same time. A lot of little bits that start to add up, ya know. Especially if we're going to do the same thing for my bassist's pedalboard, I'm a little unsure that even my new(er) quad 3.9G processor will be able to keep up at decent latencies.

To start out, I won't be recording, I just use the track as a midi master to send to other track for parameter modulation (example, a a wah effect on a bank folder). I have a "pre-master" track that everything goes to that I can set up to do loop recording/wet performance recording if need be. The great thing is that I can set it up any way I can possibly imagine.
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Old 02-18-2017, 02:12 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by hopi View Post
gtr rig... ummm hmmmm might want to have looky at S-Gear

https://www.scuffhamamps.com/product/s-gear

you can get the free trial to see what you think... IMHO has the best 'real' feel of them all...
Well, I've pretty much got the emulation with built in Reaper/Free Vst effects to where it sounds better than what I could get out of a multi-effects-unit (Boss ME-80), and I'm quite satisfied with the tones, but I could always check it out to get new sound ideas too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
Hi guys, fyi here's a 'starter/explainer template' for getting your head around sws s&m live configs - which at first is maybe daunting.

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...14&postcount=6

Hope helps.
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind if I have any troubles!
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Old 02-18-2017, 08:58 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by StepOne View Post
Well, I've pretty much got the emulation with built in Reaper/Free Vst effects to where it sounds better than what I could get out of a multi-effects-unit (Boss ME-80), and I'm quite satisfied with the tones, but I could always check it out to get new sound ideas too.

right I'm sure you do... and a couple years back, I thought I did also... but kept seeing guys mention S-Gear ...so got it, about 15 mins later I bought it and never been sorry...

Just me of course, but it just sounds great and more importantly, it feels diff than anything else I've used.... there are reasons for that, that can be read about on its web pages.

so hey... free 15 day demo... %^)
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Old 02-19-2017, 02:07 AM   #14
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Why do you think S-Gear should be chosen rather than NI GuitarRig (or other offers), while GuitarRig has many more effects ?

(I am no Guitarist and so totally incompetent at that issue, but the Guitarist in my band might be inclined to invest in such as plugin.)

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Old 02-19-2017, 09:11 AM   #15
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To start out, I won't be recording, I just use the track as a midi master to send to other track for parameter modulation (example, a a wah effect on a bank folder). I have a "pre-master" track that everything goes to that I can set up to do loop recording/wet performance recording if need be. The great thing is that I can set it up any way I can possibly imagine.
Yeah, I guess if it's just your guitar anyway, there isn't much point in recording. Assuming there's like a band going on around you anyway.

Like I said, I have the whole band running through Reaper, and pretty much have to have it at least playing or the drums don't happen. So basically, I record everything, and I prefer to record the dry inputs. That way I can record rehearsal, then listen back and tweak things in the mix and then it sounds "exactly" the way I want it at the gig, but then I can tweak that if I want/need when mixing the performance for YouTube or wherever I decide to put it.
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Old 02-19-2017, 08:21 PM   #16
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This is a little different than what you've got but I've used it before and it works very well:

Add 1 track to a Reaper project. Add all the FX you want to use to that track (say there's 5). Go to the env tab, and add bypass envelopes for each effect you have in the track. Set up 5 markers on the timeline about 10s apart (you can use whatever time you want here). Using the envelopes, set FX1 to unbypass at marker 1, and rebypass at marker 2. Do the same for each FX at each respective marker (i.e., unbypass FX2 at marker 2 and rebypass at marker 3, etc.).

Use a USB footswitch and a program like AutoHotKey to have a footswitch click advance to the next marker. Voila - now you have footswitchable FX in Reaper without MIDI. You could of course be more creative than this and have a 3 button (or several 3 button) USB footswitches to access individual FX by just jumping to the required marker in the timeline. There are also ways to hack a computer keyboard and use it as a footswitch if you want to get really creative: https://cycling74.com/2007/10/16/mak.../#.WKpgIENtlpg. A Google search will reveal more DIY options...

Hopefully this gives you some other ideas/options.
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Old 02-19-2017, 08:52 PM   #17
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Why do you think S-Gear should be chosen rather than NI GuitarRig (or other offers), while GuitarRig has many more effects ?
-Michael
That's easy: if your amp sounds bad, no amount of pedals are going to fix it. Conversely, if your amp sounds awesome, pedals are pretty much optional (apart from delay which S Gear has).

The other issue is, many of the pedals in GuitarRig and similar don't actually behave like the originals. It's like the difference between fresh strawberries and tinned strawberries.

I'm a very happy user of S Gear live. I used to run it in Reaper, just to have more options (compressor etc), but I have since realised that I can do everything I need standalone.

I use and recommend Rig Kontrol. It's a rock solid unit that I've been playing live at least once a month for the last four years and never missed a beat. Latency has never been an issue - it just works.
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Old 02-20-2017, 12:18 AM   #18
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So guitarists are actually using computers instead of amps live? What's next? the Ipad? Or even the Iphone? Wait, can I use my Iwatch?

Just kidding. I saw a video recently in which a guitarist was demoing some amp software live on his Ipad and just had to chuckle at how far the digital modelling technology has come.

I just wanted to add that when on stage the motto is KISS. The more complicated your rig is the better the chance of it ending the show short. I would keep the ME-80 ready to go as a backup just in case. I personally, as much as I am digging the latest software modellers, would show up for live events with 2 identical floor processors like the RP1000 or similar.
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Old 02-20-2017, 04:02 PM   #19
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Actually not computers instead of amps, but as well as. I use my amp for monitoring, and if something dies it is the backup system.

But as I say, I have been doing this for years now. Initially I was nervous about playing through my Mac. If fact I kept my RP500 for ages just in case. I've sold it now though, and am glad to have done so. I liked the RP500 but it is not in the same league as S Gear IMHO.

If they had S Gear for iPad I would use it for sure.
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Old 02-20-2017, 04:54 PM   #20
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Yeah no, I'm completely all in. If the computer fails, the whole show is over, but I'm not much worried about it. Had a couple embarrassing WTFs back when I was actually using a laptop, but now like I said I have a 3.9G quad core desktop machine in a rack. It runs XP which is Microsoft's best, most reliable build ever. I've been pounding it for a couple years now. Had it in hot humid basements. Taken it from sitting in a car below freezing all day into a club just an hour before the gig. Only problems I've ever had came from being too drunk to plug the snake in the right holes. I'm more confident in this rig than the collection of hardware sims and line mixer that I was using before. It just works.

We'll find out Saturday whether I just jinxed the whole thing.
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Old 02-21-2017, 12:32 AM   #21
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So guitarists are actually using computers instead of amps live?
What is "Kemper" other than a computer in a rugged box ?

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Old 02-21-2017, 09:14 AM   #22
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Not to mention that most of the clubs in my town are running Presonus or Behringer digital mixers which are again really just computers themselves.
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:21 AM   #23
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What is "Kemper" other than a computer in a rugged box ?

-Michael
Are you kidding me?
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Old 02-21-2017, 10:18 AM   #24
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I'm advising my guitar students to either go all-in VST rig live, or to use a laptop in their loop for their time based effects.

A number of them have heeeyooge pedal boards with multiple delays and reverbs. I head "how can I set my stuff up to get such-and-such sound?" and then a week later "ho can I set my stuff up to ALSO get this other sound, without having to change something else?"

It's insane that people are buying $250+ pedal delays and reverbs to do one sound.

"These pedals sound better!" No they don't. I can do 1000x better with $50 for Valhalla Room, and Freq Echo. "But I don't have a laptop!", "Yeah, but you've got $1,000 worth of pedals on that board...".

"Well, maybe I should get a Fractal or Kemper?" (Me, thinking about the zillion guitar vsts and impulses I've tested over the years) "No, I highly don't recommend that".

Laptop in your FX loop, or standalone. That's the future.
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Old 02-21-2017, 01:11 PM   #25
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Honestly, your students probably all have phones that would do it as well as anything else.
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:44 PM   #26
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Honestly, your students probably all have phones that would do it as well as anything else.
I don't think there is a phone equivalent to Valhalla Room, or lets you use custom IR's, and rigging one for midi/switching would be a chore, and you'd have to either purchase a separate one (cost of a laptop) or use your actual phone and have to keep putting it into airplane mode....

A dedicated laptop is much easier and flexible.
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Old 02-21-2017, 11:22 PM   #27
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Honestly, your students probably all have phones that would do it as well as anything else.
Is Reaper for Android Phone out yet ?
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Old 02-22-2017, 08:30 PM   #28
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I don't think there is a phone equivalent to Valhalla Room, or lets you use custom IR's, and rigging one for midi/switching would be a chore ...
Still, there is something to be said for a pedal that gives you dotted eighth repeats from your tap tempo.

I'm not too sure how you'd do that with Vallhalla plugins. It's the one thing I can't currently do with S Gear (though Mike has shown interest in the issue).

You're right, though, with VSTs you have a world of control that just doesn't exist in pedal land. Specially for compression, when you look at how much people pay for a Cali76! Give me Softube FET anyday, or even ReaComp, for that matter.

I'm intrigued by the idea of a rack mount PC for live guitar. I can see how it's more robust that way, but isn't it a pain to have to set up a monitor, mouse and keyboard? Or do you have some cunning way to see what it's doing without them?
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Old 02-23-2017, 12:29 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Toft View Post
I'm intrigued by the idea of a rack mount PC for live guitar. I can see how it's more robust that way, but isn't it a pain to have to set up a monitor, mouse and keyboard? Or do you have some cunning way to see what it's doing without them?
My live PC is a micro ATX board in the smallest case I could find with clearance for full sized PCI cards/power supplies for less than $40. It just barely fits in just over 2 rack spaces. It sits in a 6 space rack with a Tascam US1641 (that jimmy69 gave me) and a proco patchbay. It's affixed by double-sided "carpet tape". When it's installed, I can't reach either the rear panel holes nor the front panel buttons. The bios is set to "server mode" where it just turns on and boots up when power is applied, and Reaper is in the startup menu. With an SSD disk, it has loaded my most recent project and is sometimes making noise before I can actually see it.

How do I see it? There's a secured wifi hub plugged into its Ethernet port, and so far I've been using the laptop that this thing replaced via VNC "virtual desktop". This and my GI10 guitar to MIDI thing fit just right in the left over almost 2 rack spaces.

I can do it from my phone now, but it's small. Kindle doesn't support any decent VNC clients. I just remembered I have a windows Yoga laying around... Anyway, keyboard monitor mouse is kind of an abstract concept nowadays. If I trusted it the way you trust a computer in a pedalboard, you could just plug in a USB controller and go.
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Old 02-23-2017, 09:51 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Toft View Post
I'm intrigued by the idea of a rack mount PC for live guitar. I can see how it's more robust that way, but isn't it a pain to have to set up a monitor, mouse and keyboard? Or do you have some cunning way to see what it's doing without them?
My live PC is an "embedded" box with a 4 core / 8 thread 2 GHz i7 CPU, 16 GB Ram and SSD without a FAN. So no mechanical parts and very robust. I mounted it on an alloy plate together with power supply, Audio I/O and DI box and decent sockets and fixed the plate in a trunk by rubber "thingies".

I don't need Monitor/mouse/keyboard attached when playing live. For configuration I can just plug them normally in the PC housing.

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Old 02-23-2017, 07:17 PM   #31
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VNC is a cool way to drive a hidden-away PC box. Not sure I'd want to play without any monitor, though, mschnell.

Using Rig Kontrol is great, but you have no visual feedback about what patch you're using. Most of the time I'm only switching between two or three, and know whether I need to go up or down, but sometimes I get distracted and need to check. No monitor = monster plexi tone and WTF? looks from the band...

Now I'm thinking I should be running VNC from my iPad to give me a handy interface as well as a robust PC box.
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Old 02-25-2017, 01:43 PM   #32
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Still, there is something to be said for a pedal that gives you dotted eighth repeats from your tap tempo.
Can Reaper's tempo be controlled via cc scripting? Not an issue to me - delay pedals are cheap. And if one is switching a lot then that presumes you're setting up a rig for a live set where presumably you'd already have the tempos worked out. The point is to avoid dishing out trans-$1,000 money for something that doesn't sound better than what you can do in Reaper for much less and with much more flexibility.

Stand-alone "digital amps" are where digital recording was during the ADAT/Roland VS880/DA88 era. I was recording on my computer back then, it was easy to see "one day" all of that hardware would go away. I see no reason to invest in a piece of hardware that is really just a PC and some custom scripting to load an IR. YMMV.
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Old 02-25-2017, 01:58 PM   #33
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Not sure I'd want to play without any monitor, though, mschnell.
On stage IMHO a Monitor should be avoided. I am thinking about getting a Notebook for notes , though.
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Old 02-25-2017, 02:24 PM   #34
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Still, there is something to be said for a pedal that gives you dotted eighth repeats from your tap tempo.
I have two different normal pedal delays and a tremelo that do that. I think what you guys are doing (daw as your rig) is cool but that would never be something I could use, mainly because there is nothing it gives me that I want; but I can certainly appreciate who it does have value for.
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Old 10-02-2017, 01:46 PM   #35
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Surprised someone here (hint: Karbo!!) hasn't made a guitar pedal with a ssd drive, small mini chip brain, nice screen - to load in a few plugins so a guitarist can just plug in to the pedal then plug into an amp set to clean. Extra points - have smartphone access to this pedal to run / adjust plugins. Hate to bring a laptop / iPad to a live gig that can fall over / get easily stolen.

Here's a rock blues jam I made with SoundToys / Little plugins. Like to use this sound for a live gig. There' a Wavs Gtr3 amp sim here. For live into amp just turn that down. Or forget the amp and go to PA. Amp is always better for guitar. My experience.

For all you RME users - Tele guitar w/ EMG 85's recorded w/ Telefunken V76 into a Prism Atlas. Whatever.

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Old 10-02-2017, 03:18 PM   #36
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Surprised someone here (hint: Karbo!!) hasn't made a guitar pedal with a ssd drive, small mini chip brain, nice screen - to load in a few plugins so a guitarist can just plug in to the
As there already is a Pre-release of Reaper for Raspberry Pi, that is not that far away....

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Old 10-02-2017, 03:19 PM   #37
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Amp is always better for guitar. My experience.
I've run across some people who don't care about that. They want a DI no matter what because what you record isn't going to be as good as what they can do with an amp sim.

Can you imagine someone telling Vince Gill or EVH they want a DI so they can make his guitar sound the way THEY want it to sound? I can understand using a DI and SIM if you don't have an amp or can't record an amp because of neighbors or whatever but come one, DI everything no matter what? If something isn't to your liking, tell me and if I agree, I'll recut the track.

Now I have started just lately, to run my bass tracks through a SIM because I don't have a bass amp and just record it direct anyway. But that's pretty much standard practice with recording a bass signal, i.e., DI + mic'd amp, where the "amp" part is supplied by the SIM.

But, geez... these people think everything should be recorded with a DI and also convert the drum tracks to MIDI so they can run their own drum sounds because what you intended to record isn't what THEY want to hear for YOUR song.

Sorry... rant off...
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Old 10-02-2017, 04:06 PM   #38
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They want a DI no matter what because what you record isn't going to be as good as what they can do with an amp sim.
Usually it's more about having a backup if something doesn't work out down the road after the tracks have been laid. With the exception of "guitar heroes" and instrumentalists where everything else is built around "their tone". Guitar tone, like any instrument, is more about does it fit in the mix and does it support the song, and if it doesn't and the performance is good, it can be reamped which means amp or SIM.

I did (or rather doing) all guitar tracks for my project that way, I used 90% real amps along with a safety DI track knowing how I wanted it to sound BEFORE I hit record. Chances are I won't use the DI tracks at all but it is there if I find myself in a bad spot at mix time - I can just reamp or whatever. But truth be told, if the song has any real vision whatsoever at tracking time, most of these endless options aren't needed.

It's when everyone wants to just "grab tracks" and move all the decision making to later in the process where people get "option vapor locked" trying to make mixing and editing the main part of the process when it really shouldn't be and will never be as good as getting it right up front for a multitude of reasons.

Oh yea, all my bass tones for the past few years have been DI only. I use a nice preamp and/or compression on the way in but 99.9% of the time, it's a DI. To be fair, I don't care for DI into pristine interface preamps FWIW though I'm sure they would work with post-record fiddling but I hate not having a bass tone I like from the get go. If anything, every 10 minutes of extra work up front results in 10 times less work that would have been needed at the mix stage.
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Old 10-02-2017, 04:17 PM   #39
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For all you RME users - Tele guitar w/ EMG 85's recorded w/ Telefunken V76 into a Prism Atlas. Whatever.
It is whatever for a few reasons. There is no such thing as "good" in a test, it isn't a song, it's noodling against other random instruments (I didn't listen to your test so that isn't a snarky comment lol). Proverbially make it work in a song with all the parts the song needs, including vocals whathaveyou, then whatever the guitar sounds like means something. "Wow, that sounds extra clear and 3D" of some signal, through some piece of gear doesn't FWIW. For that reason, I simply don't do tests any more unless it is for documentation purposes of some micing config that I want to be able to reference without having to set it all up again to remember what it sounds like.

The other reason is 99% of all guitar tones are gone by about 7k, by design, so the best interface in the world isn't going to make a damn bit of difference in that regard. It's far, far harder to compose and play parts with a tone that makes the song better or rather such is what makes the difference that matters, .000001% at frequencies only bats can hear, not so much.

Do I think nice pro gear matters? I do, depending on what it is and in what context, but any of us throwing a mic in front of something, recording it then listening to it, isn't going to result in any objective decisions other than confirming it isn't broken. Again, grain of salt as I didn't listen to the example, just mentioning why it doesn't really matter when talking interfaces et al - respect.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:44 PM   #40
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So guitarists are actually using computers instead of amps live? What's next? the Ipad? Or even the Iphone? Wait, can I use my Iwatch?

Just kidding. I saw a video recently in which a guitarist was demoing some amp software live on his Ipad and just had to chuckle at how far the digital modelling technology has come.

I just wanted to add that when on stage the motto is KISS. The more complicated your rig is the better the chance of it ending the show short. I would keep the ME-80 ready to go as a backup just in case. I personally, as much as I am digging the latest software modellers, would show up for live events with 2 identical floor processors like the RP1000 or similar.
Im in the middle of an experiment to see how this goes, running an ipad and blueboard. We've had ourkids' bands running thru reaper live for EVERYTHING including the drums, for years...Didnt do much midi pedalboard stuff, but definitely ran all the guitar and bass thru sims....A single guitar should be UBER. As soon as I'm done with this iOS rabbit hole, I'll see if I can't get some sort of wireless pedalboard working with reaper and VSTs instead of this iOS nonsense
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