Old 03-16-2008, 06:18 PM   #1
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Default Elastic Time/Warp Time

I have been using Reaper for about a year now and I have to state it is the Dogs b*llocks
Some of the features are awesome
I have to admit though, Ive always used Ableton Live 1st to sketch out the basic idea, then onto Reaper for the serious arrangement, sound tweaking and automation
The reason for this is the Warping and timestretching, its so quick to get that perfect tempo and groove to which your materpiece gets it core vibe
Now we have Pro Tools' elastic time and Abletons audio quality is getting rather quite good
Now I feel that Reaper has a little bit of competition, its not so way ahead of the others, which I think set it apart and was a great selling point
Now Justin, if we could only get that kind of funtion on Reaper I think that would put it well ahead again
Before this elastic time thing of Pro Tools, it was so easy to convert anyone I met using Pro Tools across, but now they ask does it have that stretchy thing
I know it has elastique, but its not the same
So PLEASE could we get something similar
Paul
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Old 03-17-2008, 11:59 AM   #2
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Default Good Idea,...

++1 ...oh by the way it's by the same company that make Elastique (zpalne) it's called: AufTakt. It's basically a tempo and beat tracker, which can work with Elastiqe (like in Ableton's Live).

Check it out here-
http://www.zplane.de/index.php?page=description-auftakt
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Old 03-17-2008, 03:50 PM   #3
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Default Build the buzz

Now if we can only get more people to want this feature, that would help in the implementation

By the way have you guys cheack out Melodynes' Direct Note Access
Holy Sh*t
Now thats something Ill but the day it comes out
It a samplers dream
Actually I think giving what it can do, it would be anyone involved with making music's dream
http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=dna
Go by and take a look
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:20 AM   #4
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Default Wow

That new Melodyne system is incredible, but a little more than I would use on a regular basis.
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:03 PM   #5
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+1 from me.

Doing remixes and trying to time stretch stuff manually is a pain in Reaper.

I still have to find my original tempo and do my loop stretching/syncing in Sound Forge because manually dragging in Reaper isn't always very precise.
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Old 03-19-2008, 02:10 AM   #6
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Seems very useful!

+1
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:03 AM   #7
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Justin, any feedback?
Maybe
Maybe not
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:57 PM   #8
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This is an old request I realize, but I haven't heard anything about it recently. I think with recent feature additions (dynamic split, etc) this should be reopened.

I use elastic audio in ProTools all the time, and it is nothing short of amazing. I believe Cakewalk Sonar has the same feature too, called AudioSnap. Not to mention Live's tempo marker dragging, and I'm sure cubase/nuendo has it too. It is literally the only thing holding me back from switching full out to reaper.

All the functionality is in Reaper at this point, as far as I can tell. With the new dynamic split function, we have pretty good transient detection. With the quantize to grid, we have beat correction. With the alt+drag resizing, we have time stretch. But, unless I'm mistaken (and I hope I am!) there is no easy way to combine all these steps!

I spent some time today playing around with some drum and guitar tracks that were recorded live and without a click track. But, I don't want to tempo map them, instead I want to normalize them to a steady tempo. I also ALWAYS need to beat correct minor tempo issues in drums and guitar. Same concept.

These are a few ways to do this in Reaper, but they aren't great. First would be to tempo map it by hand with markers and tempo changes, then dynamically split all the tracks, then lock the beat positions, then change tempos. I didn't try this, but it would probably work, except then you're left with a mess of split up tracks. Plus, it's a pain to go through and tempo map it.

The method I tried using was to dynamically split the tracks using very few transients. Then, quantizing those to the grid. Even with stretching the ends of the audio to fill gaps, it was a less than useful result. I was left with massively split tracks. Most of the beats quantized the the wrong beat, with no easy way to just drag them over. Plus, it was hard to keep all four drum tracks (overheads, snare, kick) in sync.

Basically, I want a way to do the tab to transient, split, alt+drag to beat method automatically, without clumsy macros, and preferably without actually splitting the audio file. This makes for easily editing later, and easy tweaking of individual beats. Also it would be sweet if you could drag beats around for multiple tracks at once, i.e. drums.

In ProTools, I can fix off beat drums automagically in literally 30 seconds. Enable elastic audio, click the "quantize" button. Done. Usually only minor tweaking is needed at that point, and only if the drummer was really off beat. Works wonders on other instruments too.

I probably didn't do a very good job explaining that, but I think it's been explained many times before. Does anyone know any way of doing this? Does anyone know if this feature is in the works at all? I consider it a really, really urgent feature. I would probably pay to have it implemented. Seriously. :-)

I can't imagine anyone wouldn't find AudioSnap/Elastic Audio vital once they'd tried it out. :-)


cheers
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Old 10-23-2008, 07:56 AM   #9
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http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...68&postcount=9

this is not exactly the way like Live does it - but we CAN do this right now.
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Old 10-23-2008, 08:12 AM   #10
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Honestly, I'd probably not use a feature like this. I'd rather just practice until I get the performance I want instead of fiddling around with stretching/warping.. Might as well just sequence then.

OTOH, if you recording someone else than yourself I can see this being a time saver
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Old 10-23-2008, 10:43 AM   #11
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beatbybit, thanks for that. I suppose that would work okay, but it kind of helps my point: All the necessary features are already in Reaper, there just needs to be one sort of unifying command that merges them all together! It's so close to being there already.


The main issue with the tab to transient + alt+drag method is that it is hard to select the specific beats you want to correct, especially if you want to go back and change one after you've already split it. Actually I guess the real issue is that it's all manual and tedious. Ideally, there would be a way to mark all the transients in a clip, then be able to drag those clip markers around to stretch things to beat. But it would only effect the markers you choose, not the entire clip, so most of your clip that doesn't need adjustment stays easy to see and edit. If you need to change something else, you just click and drag. No worrying about splitting in the right places, or moving or messing up the entire track. The entire process should be non-destructive.

This isn't just useful for beat correction, it would also make tempo changes and ritardandos much simpler and easier.


And yeah, obviously it would be better to simply record on tempo :-) But some people just can't stay locked to a click, and more importantly sometimes it's cheaper to tweak a few missed beats than to re-track a song.


I'm just curious on the status of this. I know it's been requested several times, but is anyone even considering implementing it? Is it in progress? Should I just shut up already cause it's never gonna happen? :-) Just wish I knew.

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Old 10-23-2008, 11:43 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sir View Post
I'm just curious on the status of this. I know it's been requested several times, but is anyone even considering implementing it? Is it in progress? Should I just shut up already cause it's never gonna happen? :-) Just wish I knew.

Cheers
there are LOTS of old FRs like this - without any "Status" we know of..
(just check the FR/Thread in my signature, for eg.)

maybe, eventually.
maybe not.

:I
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:05 PM   #13
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Default A must have !

Well, I already spent quite a bit of time FRing this along with a lot of Reaper fellas.
This is a must have.

As soon as you are either into beat oriented music (urban styles i.e.) or producing pop music that has to sound abosolutely solid all the way through, you will need this !

The warp markers concept is mainly what brought me to Ableton.
I must admit that ProTools made a good step forward by implementing it into its latest versions.

This + show/hide tracks and that would turn me into a Reaper-preacher ;-)

I guess it is pretty challenging to implement, btw ...
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mio*star View Post
As soon as you are either into beat oriented music (urban styles i.e.) or producing pop music that has to sound abosolutely solid all the way through, you will need this !
but not the Ableton way of KILLING every transients when doing this WarpMarker thingie.. Rather the PT way of ElasticAudio (keeps the transients untouched)

**** a bit OT: ****

btw, beat oriented (+pop) music and sounding solid..

consider the ".reaparts" (Container Items for Audio, just like the MIDI Items)

Patterns w/GhostCopy, Trim, etc, etc. (building/tweaking a 2 bar Audio based Beat while listening the 32 bar part Arrange, for eg.)
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:36 PM   #15
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I agree.
It is all about transient detection (handles) and timestretching.
Add transient handles quantization and Reaper will rock like never before !

(not to forget VCA and show/hide tracks)
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:07 AM   #16
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+1 for warping
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:44 PM   #17
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Default any news about this one ?

... do you see anything in that field coming with v. 3 ?

The ProTools 7 guys at the studio just make me jaleous with their Elastic Audio, saving hours of editing using handles instead of cut and stretch ...

I know the Reaper version of it could even be better !!
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Old 01-02-2009, 05:34 PM   #18
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Glad somebody bumped this. This is pretty much the only feature that keeps me from ditching protools altogether. And it's basically already implemented, just needs a better interface!

This has not been included in any of the 2.99/3.0 alphas, as far as I know.
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Old 01-04-2009, 08:22 AM   #19
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+1 for me too !!!

David B














=1
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:21 AM   #20
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+1 - it needs a Beat-detective-like function, or similar to audio warp in Cubase where you can fix bad timing in takes. The time-stretching algorithm is already there, just need to make it work selectively on defined areas within clips and not just the whole clips themselves.
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:24 PM   #21
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I miss this from Cubase SX3 also. It was nice just to grab the clip and stretch away!
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:49 PM   #22
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Default ideas reminder

Right.

There were a lot of ideas thrown in this thread already.

My suggestion was : group-sensitive time handles (inserted like markers) you move where you want.
A kind of Ableton Live "warp markers" ...

The timestretching algos sound already really good to me in Reaper. Adding to them the ability to manipulate the timing of your tracks would be a killing feature !

Let's keep bumping this one !

+1
++1
+++1
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Old 01-06-2009, 05:49 AM   #23
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this has been covered (I think in this thread) but,

beat detection is already there, via tab to transient and dynamic-split

and like you say, elastic audio stretching is already there.


Now we just need a quasi-non-destructive method of stretching sections of a clip, without having to split it! Also, a way to do this to groups of tracks, to beat correct a bunch of different drum mics (for example) without them getting out of sync of each other.

Beat markers within a clip is the way to go, using the same algorithm as dynamic split, then you can just drag the clip markers around to stretch each segment to the right beat (vs. ableton live, where you drag the beat to match the clip, if I recall), or quantize to a grid (with all the strength percentage and humanize options so you can control how much correction you're actually doing)

ProTools handles this really well, with options to either render the stretching in realtime during playback or to prerender the stretching (which is a vital feature, basically a track freeze for the elastic audio to free up cpu).


Seems like a pretty simple next step to get all that working. Here's hoping!
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Old 01-06-2009, 05:55 AM   #24
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Default perfect summary +1

101% agreed - nothing to add !

mio*

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir View Post
this has been covered (I think in this thread) but,

beat detection is already there, via tab to transient and dynamic-split

and like you say, elastic audio stretching is already there.


Now we just need a quasi-non-destructive method of stretching sections of a clip, without having to split it! Also, a way to do this to groups of tracks, to beat correct a bunch of different drum mics (for example) without them getting out of sync of each other.

Beat markers within a clip is the way to go, using the same algorithm as dynamic split, then you can just drag the clip markers around to stretch each segment to the right beat (vs. ableton live, where you drag the beat to match the clip, if I recall), or quantize to a grid (with all the strength percentage and humanize options so you can control how much correction you're actually doing)

ProTools handles this really well, with options to either render the stretching in realtime during playback or to prerender the stretching (which is a vital feature, basically a track freeze for the elastic audio to free up cpu).


Seems like a pretty simple next step to get all that working. Here's hoping!
+1
+1
++1
++1
+++1
+++1
++++1
++++1
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:59 AM   #25
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Default yep!

yes please!
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Old 01-14-2009, 09:51 AM   #26
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Yep
Dynamic split is awesome, Elastique is a great algo, it seems that the tools are quite here, some kind of warp markers a la Live would make a huuuuge addition to v3.
So a big +10
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Old 01-17-2009, 12:22 PM   #27
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+1 - Beat detection/audio quantize/whatever ...it's expected in daw apps now as much as "sharpen" and "blur" are expected in a photoshop app.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:24 PM   #28
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If someone woke me up from my deepest sleep and asked me to immediately name one missing feature in Reaper, i'd pick this one.

++1
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:50 PM   #29
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Although warping is good to have, I find the only thing I really use it for (well mostly anyway) is vocal timing. It works pretty well for that.

Just slide a word or phrase left or right or extend a word or phrase a bit or put it where you hear it should be. I hardly ever quantize audio anymore but it's handy when you need to.

OTOH, my "live drum" recording / editing work has dropped significantly so ... I'm not the best example of a target user for the PT multitrack methods I suppose.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:06 PM   #30
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Default drums

It is quite difficult today to avoid drum quantizing as our ears are used to machines and "perfect" timing.

So, in my case, I use basic cut/move/stretch techniques for vocal material, but it gets so much time consuming when you do the same for 12 tracks of drums ...

Grouping my drum tracks and then adjust timing with handles according to a grid of the bassline would be soooooooo useful !!

It is a must have.
(with show/hide tracks and a bunch of other features).
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:35 PM   #31
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++1, I'll chime in again on this thread. I'm really not much of a musician. I hear stuff in my head and try to pick it out on whatever instrument. So this would definitely be a help focusing on writing/arranging. How many threads requesting this feature are there, anyway?

Kyle
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Old 01-18-2009, 12:49 PM   #32
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Default even better ?

Yep.

Now, I see the Reaper dev team as a bunch of very cutting-edge / forward thinking guys.
So, could we elaborate on the Warp/elastic audio concept and provide them with even smarter ideas to go one step further than ProTools/Ableton Live, etc. ?

I have nothing special in mind at the moment, but I am sure that avant-garde-ish ideas could emerge from us putting our brains together for a while.

What do you guys think ?
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:08 PM   #33
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Default quantize these tempo handles with whatever midi file as a template

I would really appreciate if these tempo handles could be quantized according to either an absolute grid, or a midi file.

This is something you can do with Reason.
You can use whatever midi files containing a rhythm information (preferably straight quarter notes) to quantize from.

Application : get an MPC or even a real drummer's midi file and apply it to your groove ... very useful !

I used that several times in my pre-Reaper phase and I am missing it now.
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Old 01-26-2009, 02:18 PM   #34
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+1

Have a look at PT8. It's a great set of tools for pre-production, actually. In fact, as far as I can see, the Beat Detective/Warp/Elastic stuff is the only thing PT8 has over Reaper. Why not go all the way?


[dt]
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:19 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heylow View Post
+1

Have a look at PT8. It's a great set of tools for pre-production, actually. In fact, as far as I can see, the Beat Detective/Warp/Elastic stuff is the only thing PT8 has over Reaper. Why not go all the way?


[dt]
Completely agree, heylow. I would love to never even have to consider touching PT again, but for now I know it's still the better tool for serious timing editing / audio quantizing.
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Old 02-20-2009, 03:07 AM   #36
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+1 for warping
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Old 02-20-2009, 03:56 AM   #37
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I'd like to see something along these lines make it into the program too but for the record, fixing loose timing in Reaper is pretty easy. Here's how I do it:

Tempo mapping the track is as simple as playing it through once and dropping a marker at the start of each measure. Next use a custom macro to select the area between the markers, measure the tempo and split the items all at the same time. Finally you set all the items timebase to beats(pos/length/rate) and clear the tempo map.

That's it. Works like a charm and takes less than a minute plus the initial play through.
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Old 02-20-2009, 09:05 AM   #38
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Thats ok if you wanna change the whole song, but what if you just want to change the groove of 1 track or section of track or just get creative?
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Old 02-22-2009, 06:22 PM   #39
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Default plus 1 bump

this feature would absolutely be welcomed, +1 !!!
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Old 02-22-2009, 06:40 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulRich78 View Post
...Before this elastic time thing of Pro Tools, it was so easy to convert anyone I met using Pro Tools across, but now they ask does it have that stretchy thing
I know it has elastique, but its not the same
So PLEASE could we get something similar
Paul
I'm all for a killer EA workflow in REAPER but, as long as they dont copy that horrid PT EA workflow. Working with EA in PT is just painful and quirky. I know the Cockos team can deliver in this department.

+1 for EA in REAPER.

Shane
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