Old 10-26-2017, 01:08 PM   #1
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Default FR:Dedicated Mastering View/Suite

Reaper really has moved fast forward like no other DAW.


one thing i would like to see though for it to be a full featured one program.

is a dedicated mastering view,like what S1 have

to get a feel for how it works in S1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxOPAsUOwqI
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Old 10-26-2017, 08:16 PM   #2
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The REAPER way to do it is...create a screenset/template layout for mastering. It even could be set with different themes (if you want to feel on a different interface).

Anyway, essentially it is just a multi-track player with the ability of using FX on each file/track and the master track/bus.

What couldn’t be achieve with TCP, MCP, and Arrange?
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:36 AM   #3
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I'll have to dig up some threads where I've already elaborated on this to death later, but there are so many little things missing from REAPER at the moment that I still use the WaveLab montage to finalize masters instead of attempting to hack it in REAPER as some do.

I think the Studio One model is a good guideline but the WaveLab montage is like the Studio One mastering mode on steroids.

Some of these things can be achieved now in REAPER but it's not really pretty or user friendly, some things had to be done via custom scripts that I paid people to create, and some just don't/can't exist. Not everybody is going to be into this concept.

For one, a mastering DAW needs a timecode that can switch between total project length, track length, item length, and pregaps (if any).

A built in metering section like WaveLab has would be highly beneficial. We don't want to be relying on 3rd party plugins for basic metering needs, only for specialties here and there.

A nice looking PQ Report export (with studio logo/name/info), as well as vinyl pre-master report where you can define where side B starts, and the exported report for each album side can compensate for the fact that side B doesn't start at zero. Most vinyl pre-masters are delivered as one file per side so with most apps (besides WaveLab), the report for side B is useless because it says track 7 starts at 18:32 (for example) but really on the master WAV for side B, it starts at 0:00.

This is just one small example. I could list dozens if I had time today.

I'm traveling at the moment but I could point to more than a few threads explaining why REAPER as great as it is for many things including the initial audio processing via plugins and analog gear, is just not set up well for being a finalizing mastering DAW unless you really go deep into the weeds of customizing, and still accept some compromises.

I know that some people can use REAPER 100% for mastering but for me and Cleary some others, it's not really there yet. I know more and more people that use REAPER for part of the job, and then move over to WaveLab, HOFA, Sonoris, or some others.

In reality, I have no problem using REAPER & WaveLab together as a team but I think some people want it all in one app and with the great reputation REAPER has for recording/mixing/production, it would be very wise to consider a special mastering mode for true mastering engineers that currently use apps like Sequoia, SADIE, WaveLab, Pyramix etc.

It's just hard to explain what we need to people that don't get it (recording/mixing folks) but I can assure you the need is there. Mixing and mastering are two very different things with different logistical needs. I wouldn't ever want to mix or record in WaveLab for example, it would be stupid in most cases.


It would probably take somebody who has the desire and vision to help forge the path to get it where it needs to be. I would be willing but it doesn't seem like a quick fix, but rather a well thought out venture.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:43 AM   #4
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See my post above but here is a recent thread that gets into it a bit:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=195032

And here is an article I wrote awhile back that summarizes the benefits of a mastering focused DAW:

http://theproaudiofiles.com/mastering-daw/

At the time I wrote it I was using Pro Tools & WaveLab but since then I have moved to REAPER & WaveLab. I'm extremely happy with the replacement of Pro Tools by REAPER, but REAPER is nowhere close to also replacing WaveLab.
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Old 10-28-2017, 06:14 PM   #5
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Glad to see im not the only one,wanting to see something like this
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Old 10-29-2017, 12:19 AM   #6
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Glad to see im not the only one,wanting to see something like this
Yes, you're not the only one but so far it's been challenging to get any traction. Most people seem convinced that everything can already be done in REAPER but I would also guess that those same people don't really do mastering all day every day, nor have they really explored the WaveLab montage or even Studio One mastering project mode. Things are missing and/or need to be structured and laid out a certain way to be what I would consider a great native mastering DAW.

So until something serious happens, you'll get people telling you it can all already be done, and the few things that can be done would likely require a 3rd party script that is subject to break at any time and then you're stuck until you can fix it or find somebody to fix it.

All and all, not a good situation for the average person (IE: not a coder nor hobbyist) that may want to master 100% in REAPER with all the features and workflows of an actual mastering DAW as already mentioned.
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Old 10-29-2017, 12:50 AM   #7
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the average person (IE: not a coder nor hobbyist)
OK, I don't count as I am (happily) not at all "average", as I am as well a coder as a hobbyist. But if I want coffee I use a coffee machine and don't try to make Reaper get me a cup.

So, if, regarding workflow and features, mastering really is such a different beast from what I do with Reaper why then post an FR instead of using some dedicated software such as (seemingly) Studio 1 ?

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Old 10-29-2017, 12:56 AM   #8
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why then post an FR instead of using some dedicated software such as (seemingly) Studio 1 ?

-Michael
That is what I do. I use a combo of REAPER and WaveLab. It's fine but I think REAPER could also be the all-in-one go to for many more mastering engineers with some improvements in that department.

I use REAPER for the things it excels at, followed by WaveLab by it's specialties but there is definitely a growing number of people that would like to see REAPER do it all.

Since most of the mastering focused apps are Windows only (Sequoia, SADIE, Pyramix) or Mac only (SoundBlade, DSP Quattro, Triumph), there is a definite need for the definitive Mac and PC option.

WaveLab is Mac and PC but falls short in the first step of the process for me, so that is why I use REAPER for this.

So while there is no problem, based on how great REAPER is for most of the process, I think they could easily excel at the rest of the process if they ever wanted to, but maybe they don't. They probably don't is my guess.
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Old 10-29-2017, 02:55 AM   #9
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I (hobbyist) very happily do (single song) mastering using Reaper's "Master" channel's effect chain.

I suppose you talk about multi-song mastering for an album.

Here maybe Reaper's sub-project feature might be helpful, defining each each song as a subproject in a "Master project".

Here - again - it would be great to have "live" instead of pre-rendered subprojects.

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Old 10-29-2017, 04:09 AM   #10
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OK, I don't count as I am (happily) not at all "average", as I am as well a coder as a hobbyist. But if I want coffee I use a coffee machine and don't try to make Reaper get me a cup.

So, if, regarding workflow and features, mastering really is such a different beast from what I do with Reaper why then post an FR instead of using some dedicated software such as (seemingly) Studio 1 ?

-Michael
dont really understand the statement about the coffee

about why post a FR about this.
the same can be said about every FR posted

so again dont understand that statement either
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Old 10-29-2017, 04:19 AM   #11
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dont really understand...
I wanted to point out that this request is about converting Reaper into something that already does exist and which is (according to that request) only slightly related to the current state of Reaper, as the information flow would be though two distinct entities.

Other feature requests simply ask for improving / enhancing a dedicated (usually existing) functionality of Reaper's.

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Old 10-29-2017, 09:09 AM   #12
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A form of live sub-projects is probably the right approach but even then, the sub-project is still missing some key mastering focused things that I've already described in great detail.

This is what I'm saying where people that don't understand what we're asking for keep saying it's already possible when it's a fact that it is not.

Nobody is asking to change REAPER from what it is or what it can do, just some additions that could make REAPER a very attractive all-in-one mastering DAW for serious/professional mastering engineers.

MAGIX Sequoia for example costs nearly 3,000 Euro and is Windows only. WaveLab is about 600. I think most people doing mastering seriously are willing to pay a higher price because there are so few options that do the mastering focused things I'm referring to.

However, there are some mastering engineers that use a combo of apps like myself to get the job done. Usually a DAW (REAPER, Pro Tools, Logic Pro, Cubase) as well as a mastering focused app (WaveLab, HOFA, Sonoris, Triumph, DSP Quattro etc).

REAPER in my opinion is in the best position to be the definitive all-in-one mastering solution that is also Mac and PC.

And yes, I'm speaking mostly of multi-song mastering projects such as EPs and albums, and even if it's just a single song project, nearly all the things I'm discussing here would apply.
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Old 10-29-2017, 04:43 PM   #13
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REAPER in my opinion is in the best position to be the definitive all-in-one mastering solution that is also Mac and PC.
While technically I am sure that you are right, I feel that the demand on such mastering capabilities is not very brought. Hence investing in this would not pay off decently. Thus, (unless they do it mostly for fun) the devs would need to rise the price of the product just due to that investment. I don't think this is desirable.

Of course an additional version of Reaper that includes the mastering features could be offered for - say - $3000, but with the current pricing, there is no need to invest in a copy protection scheme (as everybody is happy to pay it) and the lack of same is a very decent handling advantage of Reaper's.

(BTW, the same argument holds for request to include a decent set of virtual instruments etc in the Reaper distribution.)

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Old 10-30-2017, 01:10 AM   #14
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I don't think the development and price tag would need to be as extreme as something like Sequoia because much of the development is already there, and I don't think Cockos is like that anyway.

I would however be willing to pay for an additional mastering version pro license. Even the normal REAPER pro license is very affordable in my opinion.

It's obviously up to the REAPER developers if it's worth their time, I just want them to know that the interest and demand is definitely there, and REAPER is already not too far off. However, there just fundamental features, workflows, and things missing that prevent it from being an ideal mastering DAW for most mastering engineers.
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Old 10-30-2017, 05:53 AM   #15
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Have to agree with MRMJP
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Old 10-30-2017, 09:49 AM   #16
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It's an interesting idea because Reaper's ability to do so much puts it so within reach of being able to take over the role of other specialized software. But I think it opens up the can of worms of now that you're providing a legitimate mastering suite on par with what's currently being used you now have to continue meeting the needs of mastering people. My impression is that Cockos has always grown based on what floats their boat and beyond the features we clamor for in a DAW here on the forums never really aimed to evolve to get a particular market segment aside from simply appealing to more upper echelon professionals with Reaper's potential and the lower spectrum of new DAW user with their business model which offers such a low cost DAW that doesn't require upgrades for the pro features and yet still has free regular updates, along with, naturally, the DAW users in the middle. It would seem to be a conflict with the current model as a very inexpensive DAW on its way to dominating its niche, or at least be a hindrance to it.

Reaper is such an animal of its own kind. It's not the kind of program that we suddenly see a list of functions that people use in other specialized programs appear. I can see it being a very exciting other offering. But I can't see Cockos being interested enough in that to possibly stall Reaper with resource demands. There are some video functions I would be knocked out to find in a new version but I always figured things like that require sacrifice of the core manpower of the company that aren't in the cards or aligned with what their vision of the killer and stable DAW they want to offer.

But what the hell do I know? I didn't expect Notation to show up! : )
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Old 10-30-2017, 10:08 AM   #17
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It's just hard to explain what we need to people that don't get it (recording/mixing folks) but I can assure you the need is there.
Doesn't some of this fall into the export/distribution/media category? I'm not knocking the point, just trying to separate the important components here because I think compression/dr/eq/translation is different than PQ/CD Gaps/Redbook and so on. 2 cents for clarity's sake only.

My only nitpick is that I'm not sure I buy the metering argument because it's just too damn easy to make that a default or near default setup with what will always be better 3rd party options - because that's the only thing those third parties often do (AKA certain metering lives in my monitoring FX and an additional FX Chain on the master as needed) - and I like sharing metering apps across products if needed.

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Old 10-30-2017, 12:07 PM   #18
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It's an interesting idea because Reaper's ability to do so much puts it so within reach of being able to take over the role of other specialized software. But I think it opens up the can of worms of now that you're providing a legitimate mastering suite on par with what's currently being used you now have to continue meeting the needs of mastering people. My impression is that Cockos has always grown based on what floats their boat and beyond the features we clamor for in a DAW here on the forums never really aimed to evolve to get a particular market segment aside from simply appealing to more upper echelon professionals with Reaper's potential and the lower spectrum of new DAW user with their business model which offers such a low cost DAW that doesn't require upgrades for the pro features and yet still has free regular updates, along with, naturally, the DAW users in the middle. It would seem to be a conflict with the current model as a very inexpensive DAW on its way to dominating its niche, or at least be a hindrance to it.

Reaper is such an animal of its own kind. It's not the kind of program that we suddenly see a list of functions that people use in other specialized programs appear. I can see it being a very exciting other offering. But I can't see Cockos being interested enough in that to possibly stall Reaper with resource demands. There are some video functions I would be knocked out to find in a new version but I always figured things like that require sacrifice of the core manpower of the company that aren't in the cards or aligned with what their vision of the killer and stable DAW they want to offer.

But what the hell do I know? I didn't expect Notation to show up! : )

I understand what you mean with mastering being a "Niche Kind"of market,and that making a "dedicated"mastering into Reaper would take time away from other things,and certainly might not be the way the Devs would go.

when i started this topic,i also knew this would be unlikely to happen,but i have heard about more and more people that would like to use Reaper for mastering,as they also use it for almost anything else in the audio/production line,so that way they could get rid of most other 3rd party software,and use Reaper for all.
so thought it would be a good idea to start a topic,also to hear from other people that have tried using/uses Reaper for their mastering duties,and hear what are their thoughts,and what do they think Reaper is missing right now to be a good Mastering Daw.
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Old 10-30-2017, 12:12 PM   #19
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For me what is missing in this (mastering) regard is just more exporting options, like more wildcards, being able to define artist, albumtitle etc, tagging files. Stuff like that.
Integrating the Sox SRC algo would be very nice aswell.

Like someone said above, the rest of the S1 stuff mentioned is nothing special at all imho.
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Old 10-30-2017, 01:31 PM   #20
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Yes. Exporting, metadata for mp3/WAV files is a decent part of what I think is missing.

WaveLab lets you enter the project info such as artist name, album title, track title, ISRC codes and a myriad of other info and it gets pushed to all applicable CD-Text and ID3 metadata fields as well as the EBU standard for ISRC codes in the AXML chunk.

What's even better is that the track titles are auto-populated from the source file name which in my workflow is always the precise song/track name and ISRC codes can be entered in a way that you just enter the first code and it is automatically incremented up one digital for each track.

It's all extremely elegantly done natively. In the fast paced world of mastering, we can't be reliant on a script for this that might break with an update somewhere and need fixing.

This is just a small part of what I'm getting at.

I think some people think that mastering engineers use apps like WaveLab and Sequoia for the built-in plugins but really it's for the elegant and deep mastering focused features and workflow.
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Old 10-30-2017, 01:44 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Doesn't some of this fall into the export/distribution/media category?
IMO it's part of the mastering process. Maybe not the most exciting but still important.
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Old 10-30-2017, 01:50 PM   #22
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when i started this topic,i also knew this would be unlikely to happen,but i have heard about more and more people that would like to use Reaper for mastering,as they also use it for almost anything else in the audio/production line,so that way they could get rid of most other 3rd party software,and use Reaper for all.
so thought it would be a good idea to start a topic,also to hear from other people that have tried using/uses Reaper for their mastering duties,and hear what are their thoughts,and what do they think Reaper is missing right now to be a good Mastering Daw.
Same here. I don't really expect much to happen here, and to be honest, it would have to be really well done to match what WaveLab can do now in this department.

So for now, things are fine but as SubbaseDnB mentioned, a growing number of people want to try REAPER for mastering but also want an app that can fully finish the job without a lot of hassle which for most people, is what REAPER is when it comes to this stage of the mastering process.

So, they stick with what they know and stay away from REAPER though a few more daring and committed people have moved over or tried to.

At this point, this request is more for the sake of others than myself but based on how efficient REAPER is at most things, I would be curious to see and use REAPER's take on the WaveLab montage or Studio One mastering mode and surely many pro mastering engineers would switch to it if it was well done as there are only a few good options now on Windows, and even less on Mac.
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Old 10-30-2017, 01:53 PM   #23
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IMO it's part of the mastering process. Maybe not the most exciting but still important.
I didn't water down the importance that I remember, what is as important is that all those not in the know mixers and devs understand what "mastering" means within the context you are explaining. Until you listed all those let's call them non-audio maninpulation duties, we might have no idea (and rightfully so), so making those distinctions do matter.

I don't have much other opinion on it as it doesn't really affect me, but I do think the word mastering alone is misleading or rather lacking info that matters for what you want to achieve.
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:19 PM   #24
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From the audio perspective there isn't another DAW as full featured as Reaper for any post-mixing work that may be needed. For the end format specific tools though I guess I would have to agree.

Handling all metadata needs for final delivery downloadable FLAC files (and lossy/portable formats) would be welcome.

The DDP functions for the now 35 some year old and mostly obsolete CD format are great. The same authoring functions for the much more current DVDA and bluray formats are a glaring omission! This would be extremely welcome.


I suppose there are some scripts I should have written myself by now to automate some of this that is possible to do in Reaper...
(I know I at least still need other 3rd party apps for making DVDA and bluray iso images though.)


There's unfortunately a stream if miscommunication that runs through any discussion of "mastering" now. So many people interpret "mastering" as "further processing (warranted or not) on an unfinished mix". Hence the comments along the lines of 1. Finish your mix first! 2. You already have the most full featured DAW in front of you along with your multitracks to do so.

I agree it would be great if Reaper could be a one size fits all tool that covered all final delivery formats. Like it already is for all things audio.

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Old 12-15-2017, 09:44 AM   #25
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+1 on this feature. As it is right now, I do mastering moves in Reaper (EQ, compression, limiting, etc), but everything goes into HOFA for DDP creation (the current DDP creation method in REAPER is not adequate for such a critical operation).
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